☕ Coffee ☕: Ingredients, Roasting, Grinding, Brewing, and Tasting

[jimyson]

Reading through some of this makes me think how nice it would be of each of us provided some metrics like roast time, fc, dev %, and loss with the beans that we send out in the exchange.

 

[jimyson]

Anyone else track weight loss of their roasts?

It's something I just recently started paying close attention to. I think it's a helpful metric in determining roast adjustments to make when cupping.

Discuss

Can you explain more about what characteristics you are looking to influence in cupping through weight loss?

You also mention 12% loss is good for drip. What about espresso?

 

[applescrap]

Great question and it sparks lots more tangential thoughts. After measuring with my cheap kitchen scale many times it seemed that filling the little plastic cup was exactly a pound at least with its rudimentary measurement skill. Surprisingly, seems most coffees weigh pretty much around the same. Clearly on a digital scale that's not true but it seems like a full plastic cup is pretty close. I consider this looking at the forest through the trees and I know many of you are more exact and that's cool too.
I am very in tune with the weight of the roasted coffee and even though I don't measure it I believe it is very key. And dialing in different weights with similar roast profiles would be interesting. I could be wrong but I would think that the lighter it is in roast level and weight would be ideal. I mean a fully developed interior without going too dark on the exterior. That way the Coffee Bean is dried out enough to make sure there are no under-developed morsels in the center, and the maillard reaction is happening beautifully. Thus a light roast that is fully developed so to speak. I hope I'm right about this, but I don't want to travel too far down that path in just considering simple weight because I have some ideas that are probably missguided.

Nevertheless, the lighter the coffee gets the less fruit taste you are going to have in my opinion. And even though I don't measure I like to drink the Ethiopians much heavier. I am getting massive fruit flavors with my roasts as long as the beans don't get too light in weight or to Darkly roasted. They seem to go hand-in-hand. But I don't think they have to and that circles back to a light roast that is lighter in weight. That could only be measured by a digital scale im sure. When I get to First crack at 10 30, I think I'm pulling the roast 20 30 seconds after. I think you might be dropping it a little late for fruit flavors. If you get the first crack at 8:30 and can hear a nice loud audible crack as soon as it starts really cracking that's when I take it out. I take it out as it's still cracking a little bit and cool it instantly. I'm getting pretty strong fruit flavors doing that and roasting that hot and quickly, the fruit flavors will dissipate very quickly after that point. Chocolate and nuts after that. That's just been my experience.

 

[jammin]

Can you explain more about what characteristics you are looking to influence in cupping through weight loss?

You also mention 12% loss is good for drip. What about espresso?

I wish i had a good answer. So far I'm just taking good notes on it so I can knowwhat profile lead to the loss & what it tasted like. So far I feel like if the loss is low, say 10% or less the roast will be too bright & probably grassy. I recently finished off an espresso roast that had 21% development time & 15% loss. It tasted good with low acidity - flavors were subdued as well. I am resting another batch with a similar profile but less loss.

Happy to share my results & I agree - it would be cool to hear from others here too

 

[applescrap]

^^exactly. Im on the same page with you and am excited to see what you uncover. To light of weight and green is left in it, for sure. As you stretch development and limit weight loss, it seems nirvana is not far behind. I hope you find the roast. Perhaps low air, moderate heat, drying the beans gently, but not to long, not to dry. Bean dependent, climate and freshness too, im guessing. And then somehow find the way to that perfect maillad spot. But not to dark. Man I wish I had those skills.

 

[jimyson]

So I just roasted a batch for a fellow member that I’m meeting tomorrow. Unfortunately I won’t taste this batch to see the result. I have 21.71% loss with 21.30% development. What does that tell me? Did I cook it too much or do some beans just lose more weight than others. This is Uganda Bugisu

 

[applescrap]

I think it tells you some indication. It sure shows you are dialed in and well observant. Also i think it shows some pretty cool technology and skills. Yes, you cooked it too much if it was fresh konga and you wanted blueberry flavor. Uganda i am not sure about. It might be perfect for that coffee. That is a reasonable seeming roast and time frame, surely not to dark or light. Sometimes thats nice to hide imperfection in the bean. Not saying that bean has imperfection, just in general. I am not familiar with uganda coffee at all, but it seems regardless of bean if you really want to taste its regionality, brightness, and full flavor lighter would be needed. Am i wrong? I have found at that time and roast more chocolate and other flavors become prevalent. Ultimately roasted both, lets say one minute past 1 c same methods and this roast would reveal quite a bit. Not doing a separate espresso roast, i think i would prefer a lighter roast even with less than perfect coffee. Once all the middle silver skin is dark or even black, that lightness is less perceptible imo.

 

[ong]

nice, so 12% loss. i'm thinking thats a pretty good level to be around for a drip roast.

how did you roast it?

I just roast on my kitchen stove in a 2 gallon heavy pot, stirring constantly with a long whisk. It took a while to really get technique and timing and heat levels down, but I can roast very consistently now. One plus is that I can do fairly large batches (I drink a fair bit of coffee, and everything I drink is home roasted).

I’ve generally heard 15-20% loss is normal. On the few occasions where I’ve done pretty dark roasts the beans subjectively feel lighter (I toss between two bowls to de-chaff and cool the beans), but I haven’t weighed those batches yet.

 

[jimyson]

I think it tells you some indication. It sure shows you are dialed in and well observant. Also i think it shows some pretty cool technology and skills. Yes, you cooked it too much if it was fresh konga and you wanted blueberry flavor. Uganda i am not sure about. It might be perfect for that coffee. That is a reasonable seeming roast and time frame, surely not to dark or light. Sometimes thats nice to hide imperfection in the bean. Not saying that bean has imperfection, just in general. I am not familiar with uganda coffee at all, but it seems regardless of bean if you really want to taste its regionality, brightness, and full flavor lighter would be needed. Am i wrong? I have found at that time and roast more chocolate and other flavors become prevalent. Ultimately roasted both, lets say one minute past 1 c same methods and this roast would reveal quite a bit. Not doing a separate espresso roast, i think i would prefer a lighter roast even with less than perfect coffee. Once all the middle silver skin is dark or even black, that lightness is less perceptible imo.

This bean has such a generic profile. The sweet spot is 5-10 seconds after 2nd crack. I’ve been trying to dial in on the development % and have never measured for loss. I’ve been trying to work down from a usually 30% development time with the bean by not overloading the basket and pushing full power on the Behmor further into FC. This seemed to successfully do that. Then I calculated loss and am concerned that 21% may be too high. Not sure how to get both solid development and low loss on this.

 

[HarborTownBrewing]

Try & reign in your dev % to around 12% and see how it cups

Good point, and I will try this. I am not a Rao follower but I had generally been trying to get around 20% before dropping.

In the Behmor, I would drop an Ethiopian about 20 sec after 1C and this was great, but the Behmor also didn't cool the beans immediately...I think there is a bit of coasting going on there (I let the beans stay in the drum throughout the "cool" cycle). So I was sort of assuming I should let the beans stay in the drum a little longer on the Bullet since they would cool immediately once the roast is over.

 

[jammin]

Not sure how to get both solid development and low loss on this.

Certainly a good place to focus your energy I think. Think of it as balancing the amount of time spent it takes to hit First Crack & how that impacts what time you have left to finish your roast. Maybe shoot for a goal of 85/15 percent wise. You could start with overall goal of 10 minute roast. This allows you 90 seconds after 1C in development to hit your target temp. I like +10* from first crack as a general rule for new coffees. Once you have your settings figured out to hit these goals you can adjust 1 variable at a time (overall time, time to 1C, % of time in development etc) to determine the impact in the cup.

FWIW - No one ever told me roasting coffee would be such a PITA either haha

 

[jimyson]

Certainly a good place to focus your energy I think. Think of it as balancing the amount of time spent it takes to hit First Crack & how that impacts what time you have left to finish your roast. Maybe shoot for a goal of 85/15 percent wise. You could start with overall goal of 10 minute roast. This allows you 90 seconds after 1C in development to hit your target temp. I like +10* from first crack as a general rule for new coffees. Once you have your settings figured out to hit these goals you can adjust 1 variable at a time (overall time, time to 1C, % of time in development etc) to determine the impact in the cup.

FWIW - No one ever told me roasting coffee would be such a PITA either haha

What stinks is that this is at full power and 1lb of green. I’ll need to decrease charge weight to hit 10 minutes for a roast. Hell, I think I’m getting around 12 minutes with an 8oz charge of an Ethiopia. I may not be able to keep up with demand that way. I guess I should start a case for the purchase of a big boy roaster. [emoji23]

On that note, I’ve been wondering if the next step for me would be a drum over a grill. Higher batch without the $5k cost.

 

[jammin]

HG/BM right? The high convection & air flow dry the coffee out easier than a traditional drum roaster. Air roasts tend to be faster overall & I think this may be one of the reasons why.

Have you noticed any scorching/tipping on your beans? Full power on a HG can be too much for a lot of beans leading to roast defects such as that. Decreasing batch size might improve the quality of your roasts in more ways than one.

 

[jimyson]

HG/BM right? The high convection & air flow dry the coffee out easier than a traditional drum roaster. Air roasts tend to be faster overall & I think this may be one of the reasons why.

Have you noticed any scorching/tipping on your beans? Full power on a HG can be too much for a lot of beans leading to roast defects such as that. Decreasing batch size might improve the quality of your roasts in more ways than one.

Not sure if this was directed at me but I roast on a Behmor 1600. I’ve not noticed any scorching/tipping. My problem is that the Behmor is slower in the roasting process. And, based on consumption, I wouldn’t mind a 2-3lb bath size per session.

 

[jammin]

Ah yes - In my limited experience with the Behmor I was never able to run close to capacity; more like 50%. I was able to get some EXCEPTIONAL roasts from it though. Something magical about that radiant heat. Very gentle and works wonders on DP Ethiopians.

 

[jimyson]

Ah yes - In my limited experience with the Behmor I was never able to run close to capacity; more like 50%. I was able to get some EXCEPTIONAL roasts from it though. Something magical about that radiant heat. Very gentle and works wonders on DP Ethiopians.

I need bigger batches!!!!!

 

[jimyson]

So...I threw my batch of coffee that was sitting in a freshly emptied bourbon bottle in tonight. Recall this?

193g charge and 160g batch so 17.09% loss. Development was 20.58%. I hit second crack so fast. This batch is unusually uneven for this bean. I’m interested to see how it will taste.

I’ve managed to keep the development up and decrease the loss from the larger batches that I’ve been doing.

 

[jimyson]

I should add that there is a very nice and mild bourbon aroma to the bean. I’m excited to cup it. I may hit a pour over tomorrow.

 

[applescrap]

Love the work you are doing. Its hard for me to tell from pictures. Others more experienced have a way keener eye. Curious about your opinions on the bourbon and weight adjustments.
I have been picking out the odd, off bean. I see one front and center that looks a good candidate. How did you roast that? I mean what power levels. Just under half a pound it roasted quick easily. By adjusting the amount you roast up or down, i have found it can positively or negatively affect roast. So obvious i know, but perhaps 3/4 pound would be interesting. If you adjust only one thing at a time, then you know. I am constantly adjusting because I am not measuring anything. I roast entirely by feel. Saturday morning, i get up, dip the scale cup into the best coffee I can find, and in 18 minutes everything is put away and done. No particular reason I do it that way, it's just how it works out.

 

[applescrap]

HG/BM right? The high convection & air flow dry the coffee out easier than a traditional drum roaster. Air roasts tend to be faster overall & I think this may be one of the reasons why.

Have you noticed any scorching/tipping on your beans? Full power on a HG can be too much for a lot of beans leading to roast defects such as that. Decreasing batch size might improve the quality of your roasts in more ways than one.

For me? Yeah hg,bm. Good reminder that it is a little different. Scorching, tipping is the biggest issue. Much less with the fresh ethiopian. Roasting many of the other coffees is much more difficult. Havent tried decreasing batch size. Should give it a whirl.

Apologies for lack of pku above. I have found the ethiopians are easier to roast and roast better in general. I start to wonder if other coffee just doesnt roast that well regardless. I mean even with tipping better mitigated. I have also found that regardless of how i roasted some coffee it just wasnt great. There was no way i could make it taste like a konga. It just tastes like it does. Having great beans sure does make up for so much. Learned that from you, its so true.

 

[jammin]

Pretty happy with this roast. Very juicy, lots of berry & sweetness. Just right.

11.9% loss. 11.4% Dev

 

[jimyson]

I have been picking out the odd, off bean. I see one front and center that looks a good candidate.

Im thinking these darker beans may be the ones that absorbed more of the alcohol. I’m keeping them! Plus it looks like the different roast levels may add a little more depth like a blend would do. Dunno.

How did you roast that? I mean what power levels. Just under half a pound it roasted quick easily.

I preheated to 200F on B temp in the Behmor and went P5 manual and fast drum. I also put something under the front of the machine to tilt the beans towards the back of the basket. I honestly kept it at full power for the duration of the roast to ensure that my development time stayed down. If feel like if I put it to P3 manual after FC, it pushes me into 25-30% development. I also monitor my B temp and make sure it doesn’t go over 315. If it does, I open the front door of the roaster to let some air In and decrease that temp a few degrees. Rinse and repeat. Keep in mind that B temp is pulling from a thermocouple on the right side wall of the roaster and not bean temp.

I am constantly adjusting because I am not measuring anything. I roast entirely by feel.

I am one to just throw a bean in and roast and the only measurement is charge weight. I measure development here and there.

Overall, I’m please with the first cup this morning. I mean, it tastes like flavored coffee, which isn’t my top pick, but it’s different in a good way. I don’t think I would go searching out coffee like this and just stick with throwing some beans in a freshly killed bottle of bourbon. I’d be curious to know what others think about it. I may need to send a few 25g samples out. [emoji6]

 

[jimyson]

Pretty happy with this roast. Very juicy, lots of berry & sweetness. Just right.

11.9% loss. 11.4% Dev

View attachment 584770

Is the red line power? How about the brighter blue line?

 

[pshankstar]

Here I am using my little Fresh Roast SR500 and all the big dogs are posting charts and other stats that I cannot... The techie and geek in me is jealous! I may have to look up how to make some mods to my little roaster to keep up with you all. My notebook with times, weights (before and after), etc are not as cool. HAHA

On a side note I did soak some green beans in bourbon (very small amount) for a week or so. The inspiration I think came from @HarborTownBrewing. I wasn't a fan of it b/c the bourbon seemed to be over powering. I did take it to one of my customer's site while I was on the road and many of the guys there liked it. They agreed the bourbon was very present. Also, @jimyson I had similar beans get much darker than others. I figured those may have soaked more of the bourbon than others, but I'm no expert.

Onto more coffee from @jimyson!

 

[jimyson]

I think @HarborTownBrewing is definitely our expert bourbon coffee dude.

I recommend this simple timer to roast with. I think if the developer added a calculator for loss %, it would be a home run.

https://coffeeroastingtimer.github.io/

 

[pshankstar]

Thanks for sharing the timer! I think I may need to play around with it when I roast more beans. How far do you usually want to take the beans into "Development"? Something else to read about. Here I thought roasting coffee was going to be easy.

 

[ba-brewer]

Is the red line power? How about the brighter blue line?

there is a key at the top of the graph
red is air temp in roaster, other blue is delta bean temp

 

[pshankstar]

there is a key at the top of the graph
red is air temp in roaster, other blue is delta bean temp

I looked for a key and didn’t see it until now. DOH!!

Thanks!

 

[HarborTownBrewing]

Well, whomever I send coffee to in our HBT coffee exchange is going to be getting some bourbon-rested coffee. Then you can tell me if I'm doing it alright haha.

I put some up "for sale" and I ran out of beans and bourbon. We'll see how many are repeat customers, but I have a few that always want the bourbon coffee. The way I taste it, it's the best flavors of bourbon (caramel, vanilla, spice) without the alcohol and burn. And it smells freaking fantastic when being ground or in a pour over.

Roasted 3 back to back batches on the Bullet on Saturday. 3 lbs of beans EASILY roasted, cooled, and bagged in less than 1 hr. Could have done it faster but didn't want to play around since the beans weren't for me. On the Behmor that would have taken 6 hours with my process and the way I roasted on it.

 

[Inkleg]

Well, whomever I send coffee to in our HBT coffee exchange is going to be getting some bourbon-rested coffee. Then you can tell me if I'm doing it alright haha.

...or you could just send some to all of us.
I have been following this and plan to experiment with some beans with the next bottle I empty which will either be tequila, rum or Drambuie.
My money's on tequila.