Help with Mash Recirculation

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schiersteinbrewing

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I have been using my Brew-Boss (non cofi) for about year now, however I am having one issue. During the mash recirculation I am pumping more water to the top than what gets through the grains. I use a wilser bag, I lift the bag (giant sucking sound) then stir to get it fixed. Sometimes its just once, sometimes its more. I have slowed the pump down to a mere trickle, it will do it just takes longer. I have adjusted my mill gap from credit card to .040 and have been adding rice hulls. It's a problem I haven't been able to resolve.

Thoughts are a COFI or 400micron SS basket or false bottom? Right now I don't have the funds for any of them.

Edit: More so a royal pain when I brew 10gal. Can't turn my back on the kettle or else I end up with a giant sticky mess all over the kettle and floor.
 
Interested to hear what other folks say about this because I've sporadically had the same issue on my recirculating mash system. It has only happened on very first and the last batch I did. I was going to increase my gap to see if I could avoid it all together. Sounds like that might not work.
 
yeah, this just happened to me yesterday. I had a large amount of grain (21 lbs) and assumed it was due to all that weight pressing the bag to the sides of the kettle. I've only got three or four batches on this system so far, but this was the first time it happened.

I have the 15g brew boss with the stock bag (not cofi).

It happened about three times in a 90 min mash. Once I figured out what was happening I just kept my ear tuned and as soon as I heard it I pulled one side of the bag until the vapor lock broke and then all was fine. I tried putting a copper pipe along side the bag to provide an air channel, but it didn't seem to prevent it.
 
I've had the same problem. Too much grain slows the draining and starves the pump. I throttle back the pump and recirculate outside the bag when I have a large grain bill. I figure that the thermal mass of the grains retains the heat and my RIMS tube setup will account for variation in temps. I was thinking a stainless 400 micron basket might help
 
I'd probably try to put a buffer on your valve intake somehow. I picture bag/grain getting sucked into/infront of the bulkhead. Maybe a simple shield to keep the bag from getting right on it.
 
My last two batches have been the worst. One was a 5g German Alt 11.5lb grain bill, turn my back to calibrate PH meter start to smell burnt grains quickly turn off controller and fixed issue (was very angry about it). Before the boil I tasted the wort couldn't detect a scorched flavor so kept on trucking(calmed down by this point). Haven't kegged yet to see what came of it. The second was this past Saturday, a 10g Oktoberfest with a 25lb grain bill, went to get the leaf hops out of the freezer inside and come out to a 1.5gallon ish sticky puddle in the garage. I was NOT happy.

FYI 25lbs of grain in a 62qt kettle is pushing the max capacity.
 
I'd probably try to put a buffer on your valve intake somehow. I picture bag/grain getting sucked into/infront of the bulkhead. Maybe a simple shield to keep the bag from getting right on it.

Good thought. I'm not sure how the BB systems are set up, but I'm using the steamer basket the Bayou Classic kettle I have came with, so there's no chance it's getting anywhere near the bulkhead.
 
Interested to hear what other folks say about this because I've sporadically had the same issue on my recirculating mash system. It has only happened on very first and the last batch I did. I was going to increase my gap to see if I could avoid it all together. Sounds like that might not work.

Do you have a gap between your basket and the kettle wall? It seems like even though it's not going through the grain, as long as there is a path for the wort to flow outside of the bag, it should keep flowing, and keep the grains at the right temp.
 
Do you have a gap between your basket and the kettle wall? It seems like even though it's not going through the grain, as long as there is a path for the wort to flow outside of the bag, it should keep flowing, and keep the grains at the right temp.

Yeah, there's a small gap. Should be enough to let wort flow through, so that tells me it's all getting held back in the bag.
 
Is this different than just a stuck mash? Sounds like a stuck mash.

On my RIMS I've found that I need to start recirculating with a very slow ~.4 gal/min for about five minutes and then work my way up to ~1.25 gal/min over several minutes.
 
Is this different than just a stuck mash? Sounds like a stuck mash.

On my RIMS I've found that I need to start recirculating with a very slow ~.4 gal/min for about five minutes and then work my way up to ~1.25 gal/min over several minutes.



I have been approaching it as a stuck mash.

I'll give the ramp up flow rate approach a shot. I just never know when this is going to happen. Mostly in the first 10 min but I've had it happen every 5-10 min throughout the mash also.

I've considered only pumping during heating to the next mash step and insulating the kettle. That defeats one reason why I bought the Brew Boss, to maintain my mash temps better.

Ordered grains for my next brew from AHB milled to see if it's my milling (which I've already adjusted twice).

On a plus side I get to brew more "trouble shooting" the problem, or at least that's how I play it off with the SWMBO.
 
FWIW, I have never had any problems recirculating with BIAB. I use a false bottom to keep the bag off the bottom of the kettle and strain hops from the boil, and the pump that I use is one of those cheap tan pumps that only outputs about 1.7 gpm.
 
Good suggestion @thekraken. I've been doing exactly what you describe. And @tob77, I've got one of those small 24v pumps as well. Works great.

As I was dreaming about all things homebrew last night a possible solution came to mind. What if I attached a longer return hose, plugged the end, cut some slots into it, and ran it down approximately through the middle of the grain bed to the bottom of the kettle. I would be allowing some of the wort to short circuit the hydraulic restriction that is the grain bed. Doesn't seem ideal from an extraction standpoint, but I really doubt I would see any appreciable difference in efficiencies.

If increasing my mill gap doesn't work I'm going to give this a whirl.
 
That defeats one reason why I bought the Brew Boss, to maintain my mash temps better.

Don't specifically have the BB, but I'm with ya. Very frustrating when things don't pan out like they should.

BTW, sorry if I've hijacked parts of your thread. I got kind of excited when I realized you were having the same issue.
 
Don't specifically have the BB, but I'm with ya. Very frustrating when things don't pan out like they should.

BTW, sorry if I've hijacked parts of your thread. I got kind of excited when I realized you were having the same issue.


No worries, I'm sure it's not a BB specific problem. I use to have the same problem on my induction system. Which doing away with the bayou classic basket and using a jaybird false bottom helped, and seldom stuck. Then usually only stuck when using rye or flaked grains.

Working with a heating element, thermo probe, valve assembly, and bayous basket ring around the rim makes a false bottom design difficult.
 
As I was dreaming about all things homebrew last night a possible solution came to mind. What if I attached a longer return hose, plugged the end, cut some slots into it, and ran it down approximately through the middle of the grain bed to the bottom of the kettle. I would be allowing some of the wort to short circuit the hydraulic restriction that is the grain bed. Doesn't seem ideal from an extraction standpoint, but I really doubt I would see any appreciable difference in efficiencies.


I have a 16in copper tube that has holes drilled in it all over, that goes down into the mash for circulation return. I didn't like "spraying" the wort over the top of the grain bed, to much foam and fear of HSA.
 
If your pump is pumping faster than the your kettle can supply the wort, then you should restrict the flow. I've done this with a ball valve on the output of the pump.

You could probably do the same with the ball valve on your kettle. Just watch to make sure you are not collapsing your hoses from the suction of the pump.
 
I am not BIAB but switched from batch sparge in a cooler to recirculating direct fire in a kettle. I needed to adjust my crush to a wider setting to improve flow.
 
I think it might be helpful to clear up what is NOT happening.

The BB when used with a bag (non COFI) does have a false bottom to keep the bag away from the outlet. This is not occurring because the bag is plugging the outlet.

It is not a stuck mash. Wort is still flowing through the mash bed.

It is also not due to too high a flow rate. You can reduce flow to a trickle and it doesn't help.

In the times it happened to me, it seems to be caused by an air pocket that gets trapped under the bag. The bag is pressed against the kettle wall by the weight of the grain. Evidently, air gets trapped below the bag. Where does it come from? That's not clear to me. Possibly it is cumulative small bubbles coming off the heating element as well as entrained air from the grain that gets pulled under the false bottom. Not really sure about that. But somehow an air pocket forms under the bag and eventually this air pocket starts effecting flow.

In my case when this occurred if I pulled the bag away from the side to "burp" the system, there would be a big rush of air from under the bag once I got it released. The system would then run fine again at the same flow etc. (so again, it is not a stuck sparge and not related to too fast flow rate).

I think most other BIAB systems put the bag in a basket (like the Bayou classic) or use a stainless basket (COFI) and in either case there is a gap between the mash and the kettle wall that prevents trapping air.

Are there other BIAB systems with the bag against the kettle wall and do they also have this problem with entrapped air?
 
If your pump is pumping faster than the your kettle can supply the wort, then you should restrict the flow. I've done this with a ball valve on the output of the pump.

You could probably do the same with the ball valve on your kettle. Just watch to make sure you are not collapsing your hoses from the suction of the pump.

I do have a ball valve on the output of the pump to restrict flow.
 
Not trying to be argumentative, but some of the things said above contradict each other and I don't think we can broad brush say these things are not happening.

It is not a stuck mash. Wort is still flowing through the mash bed.

It is also not due to too high a flow rate. You can reduce flow to a trickle and it doesn't help.

If wort were still flowing, then reducing to a trickle would absolutely help. However, if reducing the flow rate doesn't help that would indicate that no wort is flowing. Can't have both. Gotta pick one or the other.

Also, it can very easily be caused by too high of a flow rate, for a couple of reasons. First, the high flow rate could cause the problem to begin with. If you start the flow rate too high it has the potential to compact the grain bed very tightly, causing increased restriction to the flow. Increased restriction means less wort to the pump. Second, even if the grain bed did not compact, if there is enough liquid under the basket/false bottom and your pump can pump faster than the wort can fall through the grain bed, then it will absolutely overflow the top side of the kettle.

This is a simple mass balance and there are two possible solutions. Speed up the rate at which the wort can fall through the grain or slow down the rate at which it's pumped from the bottom to the top.

In the times it happened to me, it seems to be caused by an air pocket that gets trapped under the bag. The bag is pressed against the kettle wall by the weight of the grain. Evidently, air gets trapped below the bag. Where does it come from? That's not clear to me. Possibly it is cumulative small bubbles coming off the heating element as well as entrained air from the grain that gets pulled under the false bottom. Not really sure about that. But somehow an air pocket forms under the bag and eventually this air pocket starts effecting flow.

In my case when this occurred if I pulled the bag away from the side to "burp" the system, there would be a big rush of air from under the bag once I got it released. The system would then run fine again at the same flow etc. (so again, it is not a stuck sparge and not related to too fast flow rate).

The vapor pocket that is developed below the false bottom or basket, whichever being used, is caused by pumping the liquid out, not by developing an air pocket in. The pocket is created by the vacuum induced by the pump impeller. There very well could be a substantial amount of air in the grain bed before it's fully wetted. If there are bubbles coming from the heating element that would be steam. Hopefully the element isn't firing enough to generate steam, but if it were then the steam pockets would quickly collapse and turn back to liquid at the conditions we're operating at. Steam is definitely not the culprit.

The big rush of air you're feeling is caused by the water falling into the vapor space and pushing the vapor out the newly formed passages you created by lifting the bag.


I think most other BIAB systems put the bag in a basket (like the Bayou classic) or use a stainless basket (COFI) and in either case there is a gap between the mash and the kettle wall that prevents trapping air.

Are there other BIAB systems with the bag against the kettle wall and do they also have this problem with entrapped air?

I have a Bayou Classic, I use the steamer basket to support the bag and keep it off the element, and I have still gotten a vapor pocket under it. The use of a basket doesn't prevent this from happening.

I use a @Wilserbrewer bag in my set up. This bag is awesome. It's so awesome that it might even be trapping so much flour from my fine crush that it's plugging up. That's why I plan to loosen up on the gap setting. Or maybe if I just conditioned the grains it would reduce the amount of flour that's produced. That's something else I need to try.

Anyhow, feel free to poke holes in anything I've said. I don't take myself too seriously, and oftentimes I'm wrong about stuff, so it won't hurt my feelings.
 
Are there other BIAB systems with the bag against the kettle wall and do they also have this problem with entrapped air?


I use an inverted keggle with a Norcal false bottom + BIAB bag and since employing the bag, have never had any flow issues (like I used to with just the fb + rice hulls). Now, I haven't done any 10gal batches, but I have done a 24.50lb imperial stout (and generally do big beers), plus a hefe that was at least 50% wheat. And I crush at 0.028". (edit: I also condition and there is quite a bit of fluffy husk material kept intact from doing so)


I do run my return outside the bag just under the surface / at the top, but other than that there's nothing keeping the bag off the wall.
 
I have often wondered if placing something porous vertically outside the bag against the kettle wall might function as a bypass route in case the bag flow slows. I have a long length of stainless braid from a washing machine supply, perhaps placed vertically from top to bottom might provide a simple low flow wort path....IDK, just a thought
 
I have often wondered if placing something porous vertically outside the bag against the kettle wall might function as a bypass route in case the bag flow slows. I have a long length of stainless braid from a washing machine supply, perhaps placed vertically from top to bottom might provide a simple low flow wort path....IDK, just a thought

But wouldn't that be counterproductive? Instead of channeling you'd be rivering!
 
But wouldn't that be counterproductive? Instead of channeling you'd be rivering!

Yes, perhaps. But you would also avoid collapsing the FB, and or burning the element and the wort. Sorry, just a suggestion, I don't have the patience for these fancy toys....I just mash in and try to ignore for a while :)
No recirc for me....well maybe I do recirc from the bottom of the kettle to the top manually, with a mash paddle.....
cheers
 
Not trying to be argumentative, but some of the things said above contradict each other and I don't think we can broad brush say these things are not happening.

A good discussion is the best way to figure this stuff out.

If wort were still flowing, then reducing to a trickle would absolutely help. However, if reducing the flow rate doesn't help that would indicate that no wort is flowing. Can't have both. Gotta pick one or the other.

To be clear, reducing the flow to a trickle helps in the sense that you are less likely to pull air into the pump. But the problem doesn't go away.

When this occurred, the first indication that something was wrong was the sound of air getting to the pump. When that happened my goal was to eliminate the problem, not study it, so no doubt there are still some things to learn.

My first reaction was to shut down the flow rate, but the issue didn't go away. Then I noticed there was no pooling of wort on top of the mash. Hence, I concluded that it wasn't a stuck mash. Also, once the system got "burped" all was well again, and if was stuck to begin with, letting air out from under the bag would not make it un-stuck. So again, this leads me to believe it was not related to a stuck flow. I was brewing a pretty high gravity beer and this was a thicker mash than would be typical for most BIAB applications (although not at all thick from the standpoint of a conventional mash).

Also, it can very easily be caused by too high of a flow rate, for a couple of reasons. First, the high flow rate could cause the problem to begin with. If you start the flow rate too high it has the potential to compact the grain bed very tightly, causing increased restriction to the flow. Increased restriction means less wort to the pump. Second, even if the grain bed did not compact, if there is enough liquid under the basket/false bottom and your pump can pump faster than the wort can fall through the grain bed, then it will absolutely overflow the top side of the kettle.

I get what you're saying, but wort was not pooling on top of the mash when this happened. I did have the flow restricted even before this happened, since that is just part of the SOP for a recirculating mash with the brewboss.

Anyhow, feel free to poke holes in anything I've said. I don't take myself too seriously, and oftentimes I'm wrong about stuff, so it won't hurt my feelings.

Yeah, no worries here, I feel the same!
 
I have often wondered if placing something porous vertically outside the bag against the kettle wall might function as a bypass route in case the bag flow slows. I have a long length of stainless braid from a washing machine supply, perhaps placed vertically from top to bottom might provide a simple low flow wort path....IDK, just a thought

I inserted a piece of copper tubing down to the false bottom to see if it would allow any trapped air to escape (instead of a channel for wort to get down). I'll need to keep playing with that before coming to any conclusions.
 
Never did BIAB but do recirculate with a HERMS.

Has anyone ever tried a lauter grant? That would potentially eliminate the vacuum to the bottom side of the tun/kettle I would think...

A pump directly coupled to the drain can create a lot of problems. At least in my experience anyway.

Just a thought.
 
I get what you're saying, but wort was not pooling on top of the mash when this happened. I did have the flow restricted even before this happened, since that is just part of the SOP for a recirculating mash with the brewboss.

Ah ha! I thought your problem was identical to the OP's and mine in that the kettle overflowed because of a stuck mash. Now what you're saying makes more sense.
 
Very interesting discussion here.

Forgive my ignorance but what is a COFI.

Check it out:
http://www.brew-boss.com/

squirts the return wort directly into the bed and keeps it from setting, thereby avoiding stuck or sticking recirculation.

COFI%20Filter%20Flow%20Diagram.jpg


I'm thinking the same results could be achieved with reverse circulation.
 
Very interesting discussion here.



Forgive my ignorance but what is a COFI.


Center Out Forced Infusion, imagine a stainless basket with a perforated vertical sparge tube in the center.

Sparges or recirculates radially or horizontally.

A Brew Boss product.

For now I'm sticking with the FSPOONI, or forced spoon infusion :)
 
Seems like two things are being discussed here. One is pump cavitation because of limited flow to the suction of the pump. The other is a limited flow through the bag which causes the kettle to overflow without the pump cavitation.
 
I've had this happen one time, not sure of the cause. I use a Bayou Classic with the basket. I also have a spray head distributing/restricting the mash flow. I either had to fine of a crush or the bag I was using was to fine. I was using Golden Promise grain at the time and haven't used it again, not sure if that was the cause. I'm now using a different bag and have not had it happen again.
 
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