Yup, 88% is low. How long did you mash? Do you know what your pH was (measured or predicted)?
Help with Mash Recirculation
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Yup, 88% is low. How long did you mash? Do you know what your pH was (measured or predicted)?
Bigarcherynut
Well-Known Member
I mashed for 60 minutes. Being this was my first all grain and doing it BIAB went from the recipe for all grain. Had read earlier post on BIAB were they mashed for 90. Was about ready to ask this but so much reading of recent guys are trying to cut this down so I'm not sure what is right or best. Like I said started with a .04 mill rate.
I did not test the pH. Wasn't sure I needed to at this time. I'm in the country with a well so I know I'm not dealing with treated water from the city. Is thissomething that I should test once to know what my water is or does this change with water and type of grains/mash?
Thanks for your input. A lot I need to get down.
Well water typically has higher mineral content than surface run off water. So, you should probably get your water tested so that you know what's in it, and can compensate where necessary. Since BIABers tend you use more mash water than traditional brewers, the effects of water alkalinity can be magnified, thus increasing the importance of modifying the water.
I suspect your well should have fairly consistent mineral content vs. time. To be sure, you could have a sample tested at the end of your rainy season, and a second sample tested at the end of your dry season.
Brew on
Bigarcherynut
Well-Known Member
Well water typically has higher mineral content than surface run off water. So, you should probably get your water tested so that you know what's in it, and can compensate where necessary. Since BIABers tend you use more mash water than traditional brewers, the effects of water alkalinity can be magnified, thus increasing the importance of modifying the water.
I suspect your well should have fairly consistent mineral content vs. time. To be sure, you could have a sample tested at the end of your rainy season, and a second sample tested at the end of your dry season.
Brew on
Seeing the depth of the well is over 200' I would feel it's fairly consistent. What will I be looking for in the water test and the range it should be within? I have test strips for our hot tub that shows Ph, alkalinity and TDS. Would that tell me?
The test strips aren't going to be much help. pH of the mash is important, but counter intuitively the pH of the water matters little. It's the alkalinity of the water that has the biggest affect on mash pH. Most folks get a brewing water report from Ward Labs. Besides hardness and alkalinity it gives concentrations of minerals of interest for brewers:
Calcium
Magnesium
Sodium
Iron (should be less than 0.1 ppm)
Bicarbonate
Sulfate (often reported as sulfur)
Chloride (not Chlorine)
When you have the water report, you can plug the numbers into Bru'nWater (or another water calculator) along with your grain bill to estimate your mash pH, and calculate adjustments when necessary. Many brewers find the predictions of Bru'nWater to be very accurate, but if you want to be really sure about mash pH, you need to get a GOOD pH meter and actually measure the pH. Lots more information in the Brew Science area of HBT.Magnesium
Sodium
Iron (should be less than 0.1 ppm)
Bicarbonate
Sulfate (often reported as sulfur)
Chloride (not Chlorine)
Brew on
gotbags-10
Well-Known Member
May have been talked about already but if I have a stuck mash can I just stir it to break it up as long as I'm using the bag? Or would it release to much sediment?
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wilserbrewer
BIAB Expert Tailor
Yes, stirring is likely the best way to free a stuck flow. I wouldn't be concerned with sediment passing the bag.
gotbags-10
Well-Known Member
Ha that's funny! I was literally opening a bag from Brian that I just got in as he was replying to my question.
As @wilserbrewer said, it'll work. But for me it was always a temporary fix. It'd eventually stick again.
The worse brew day I ever had was an oatmeal stout. I was almost in the fetal position, crying in the corner, by the end of the mash.
The_Bishop
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Ok, question for you all:
I'm building an eBIAB kettle/controller. It will be replacing the kettle and induction burner I'm currently using.
My chiller is mounted underneath the stand. It's a copper convoluted Zchiller.
When you guys recirculate, are you going through the chiller, as well? Or do you connect the chiller afterwards? I'm concerned with the heat loss of the chiller causing a large temperature difference between the kettle outlet (where I'm planning to install my probe) and the return, which will be in the kettle lid. Would I be better served by having a hose to run right back to the kettle return, then swapping to the chiller at the end?
Currently, the only time I use the pump is at the end of the boil, for recirculating the wort through the chiller at the end of the boil.
I'm building an eBIAB kettle/controller. It will be replacing the kettle and induction burner I'm currently using.
My chiller is mounted underneath the stand. It's a copper convoluted Zchiller.
When you guys recirculate, are you going through the chiller, as well? Or do you connect the chiller afterwards? I'm concerned with the heat loss of the chiller causing a large temperature difference between the kettle outlet (where I'm planning to install my probe) and the return, which will be in the kettle lid. Would I be better served by having a hose to run right back to the kettle return, then swapping to the chiller at the end?
Currently, the only time I use the pump is at the end of the boil, for recirculating the wort through the chiller at the end of the boil.
you don't connect to the chiller until your ready to cool down
Actually, I'd recommend circulating boiling wort through it for the last 10 minutes of the boil. Get everything good and sanitized.
correct
The_Bishop
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I'll usually circulate through the chiller and all associated tubing for a few minutes after flameout without the chill water running to sanitize everything. I was just curious as to weather anyone left the chiller in the loop while mashing. I didn't think so, was just curious.
I wanted to give you guys an update on this. I finally did what I intended to do with this which was 1) to create a home-made COFI system out of Loc-Line and b) switch from BIABag to BIABasket. I picked up a #400 mesh screen basket from Chad at ArborFab - fantastic product and couldn't recommend more. I've been through one brew session so far with it as well as my homemade COFI/BrewBoss setup and I have to say, it's literally set it and forget it. Fully open flow from Chugger, zero recirc issues. Probably the best beer I've brewed yet.
Note: I did modify the orange sections by drilling 3 holes in addition to the single nozzle that comes stock on each segment. The additional holes I drilled in each section at 3 o'clock, 6 o'clock and 9 o'clock. I used the default hole as my guide to drill straight through to the 6 o'clock position and eyeballed the 3 o'clock - 9 o'clock holes.
Figure 1: Camlock attached to my kettle lid to allow attachment of recirc from Chugger to Loc-Line inside kettle
Figure 2: Shows what the COFI looks like underneath the kettle lid
VIDEO Strike water recirculating through the LocLine COFI
VIDEO Mash recirculating through the LocLine COFI
Note: I did modify the orange sections by drilling 3 holes in addition to the single nozzle that comes stock on each segment. The additional holes I drilled in each section at 3 o'clock, 6 o'clock and 9 o'clock. I used the default hole as my guide to drill straight through to the 6 o'clock position and eyeballed the 3 o'clock - 9 o'clock holes.
Figure 1: Camlock attached to my kettle lid to allow attachment of recirc from Chugger to Loc-Line inside kettle
Figure 2: Shows what the COFI looks like underneath the kettle lid
VIDEO Strike water recirculating through the LocLine COFI
VIDEO Mash recirculating through the LocLine COFI
I am using the Bayou Classic 62qt with steamer basket also. I recirc straight into the top of the mash using a chugger pump.
I have had what you describe happen on occasion, although i can catch it pretty fast due to the fact that I have a sight glass on the side of my kettle. When I see the liquid level dropping I can usually solve the issue by either stirring the mash or by backing off on the flow rate using the ball valve I have mounted on the outflow of the pump. When stirring, I have noticed that if I brush along the sides of the bag/basket as I am stirring that seems to have a pretty rapid impact, vs just stirring in the middle and scraping the bottom of the bag. I'm pretty sure my bag is just getting clogged with particulate.
I was doing some googling on it last night and came across this blog post, which sounds almost exactly like the problem I had been having.
I have reached out to Chad at arborfab.com as he recommended for a quote on a mod to the strainer basket. Same idea as what @schiersteinbrewing was referring to above, just using the upper "collar" of the strainer basket if you will. Here's a pic of what I am referring to, although this one looks quite a bit shorter than mine since the blogger was using the 10 gallon BC with steamer basket.
Depending on the cost, I may just elect to have a basket made without use of the collar of the existing steamer basket, as that may prove cost ineffective due to having to ship the steamer basket to him to modify. Might be cheaper to just have him make the basket from scratch.
Looks like Utah Biodiesel Supply does pretty much the same stuff, but since I am in NC it is cheaper to ship from Michigan (ArborFab) than from Utah.
My goal here is to increase flow rate through the grainbed to minimize stratification and to also be able to walk away from the thing without it ending up in disaster.
Currently, I use LocLine as a "sparge arm" to recirculate on top of the mash using just their standard kit and regular nozzles as seen in the first photo of my post. However, I just picked up their flow nozzle kit, which most folks are using as a circular pattern on top of the mash, as in this photo:
After thinking about it though, I believe what I am going to try is to make a COFI-type solution out of this, by straightening it and twisting the nozzles all the way down the length of it so I am getting a radial pattern all the way down. I would bulkhead the top of the line to the top of the kettle through the lid. Nice part about LocLine is you can add or remove segments as needed so if you had a lower liquid level on a given batch, you could simply modify the height of the spray portion so it stays under liquid, then use standard locline links to make up the difference between there and the exit from the kettle. Kind of like this:
I plan to play around with this on my next brew day and will report back the results. If that doesn't do anything or makes no difference, I can always adjust it back into the loop orientation as above and go from there.
**EDIT** - if you are interested in LocLine and want to learn more about it go to their website and check it out - most of these items can be found on Amazon. Here is a link to the spec page for the materials it is manufactured from (Standard Hose and Fittings), at the bottom it states that it is FDA food safe. Had someone PM me about that.
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pennengr
Well-Known Member
Looks great. Thanks for the follow-up. I drilled out my Loc-Line for yesterday's brew after seeing this.
jackyl
Well-Known Member
I wanted to give you guys an update on this. I finally did what I intended to do with this which was 1) to create a home-made COFI system out of Loc-Line and b) switch from BIABag to BIABasket. I picked up a #400 mesh screen basket from Chad at ArborFab - fantastic product and couldn't recommend more. I've been through one brew session so far with it as well as my homemade COFI/BrewBoss setup and I have to say, it's literally set it and forget it. Fully open flow from Chugger, zero recirc issues. Probably the best beer I've brewed yet.
Note: I did modify the orange sections by drilling 3 holes in addition to the single nozzle that comes stock on each segment. The additional holes I drilled in each section at 3 o'clock, 6 o'clock and 9 o'clock. I used the default hole as my guide to drill straight through to the 6 o'clock position and eyeballed the 3 o'clock - 9 o'clock holes.
Figure 1: Camlock attached to my kettle lid to allow attachment of recirc from Chugger to Loc-Line inside kettle
Figure 2: Shows what the COFI looks like underneath the kettle lid
VIDEO Strike water recirculating through the LocLine COFI
VIDEO Mash recirculating through the LocLine COFI
That's fantastic. I have been using a 400 micron basket from Arbor Fab for a year or so and have been really happy with it, but have been thinking about some way to recirculate the mash, especially with automation / a PID likely in my future. I'm pretty sure I am going to copy this exactly.
Are you still happy with it? Anything you would change in retrospect?
E: I am using 25 gallon pots to do 10 or 15 gallon batches although 15 is a tight fit - I'm debating adding a second 25 gallon pot to maybe be able to do up to 1bbl batches, in which case recirculation would be essential.
ReverseMonk
Well-Known Member
I'm working through the final design and build of my new eBIAB recirc system and I have learned a lot from this thread. I've been full volume mashing for 2-3 years now, I love it, and I'd never go back to a traditional 3 vessel system. So, from that aspect, I feel much more comfortable (and somewhat know what to expect) ditching the second vessel and going straight BIAB.
Sounds like a relatively coarse crush (.040 - .050) along with keeping the mash moving are the two main keys to good efficiency in this type of system. Any parting shots from you guys using the "COFI" type center recirc manifolds? I'm headed in that direction (either center inlet or whirlpool arm that can pull double duty, but leaning toward center inlet) and just curious if anyone would do anything different at this point.
Sounds like a relatively coarse crush (.040 - .050) along with keeping the mash moving are the two main keys to good efficiency in this type of system. Any parting shots from you guys using the "COFI" type center recirc manifolds? I'm headed in that direction (either center inlet or whirlpool arm that can pull double duty, but leaning toward center inlet) and just curious if anyone would do anything different at this point.
pennengr
Well-Known Member
The main thing that I'm changing is my crush (after using a very fine crush with BIAB for a couple of years). I just bought a grain mill and will being doing my first coarse crush batch tomorrow. Aside from that, I've been very happy with my system.
pennengr
Well-Known Member
Everything went well with today's session (Kolsch on BIAB RIMS with Locline COFI). I did have to lift the bag briefly early on after starting the recirc, but after that everything seemed to equilibrate. Mill set at 0.041. I overshot my preboil gravity by 0.002, mash efficiency around 87% per Beersmith.
Borneogoat
Active Member
I have a 15gal Brew Boss with COFI and have had troubles with low efficiency. However, when brewing last weekend I increased my mill gap to 1.25mm (0.049") per earlier posts and hit my target OG for the first time on this system. I WOO-HOO'd so loud the dog ran outside and my GF dropped her Kindle!
Still only have 65% total efficiency according to Beersmith, but at least I can hit my target...
Still only have 65% total efficiency according to Beersmith, but at least I can hit my target...
Congrats! I'm assuming that's brew house efficiency you're talking?
Curious, are you measuring your gravity at multiple points in the process? If not, I'd recommend it because that will help identify if your efficiency woes are due to poor conversion or something else.
What was your mill gap set at previously?
Borneogoat
Active Member
Regarding my 65% efficiency, it is what Beersmith calls "Tot Efficiency". I believe this is the same as Brewhouse Efficiency. I'm taking SG readings post mash and post boil. The post boil was dead on and the post mash was low by 0.001. I can live with that! I would like to improve my total/brewhouse efficiency yet more and am open to suggestions...
My previous mill gaps where 0.9mm (~.035") and smaller, due to recommendations by BIAB brewers at my local HB club. I'm going to stick with 1.25mm gap for now as it seemed to work well. The flow through my COFI looked good too, no overflow at the top probably means good circulation.
If you want to improve your efficiency, the first thing you have to do is determine if your conversion efficiency is low, your lauter efficiency is low, or both are low. Mash efficiency equals conversion efficiency times lauter efficiency, and BeerSmith will will tell you your mash efficiency if you input your actual pre-boil volume and pre-boil SG. If you don't know where the problem is, you don't know what to fix.
Turns out the maximum SG of the wort in the mash is pretty much a function of only the water to grain ratio. So you can determine the conversion efficiency by dividing your actual mash SG by the maximum SG (from the table here.) You should be able to regularly achieve conversion efficiency of 95% or better. If not you need to mash longer (since you don't want to crush finer.)
After you calculate your conversion efficiency, you calculate your lauter efficiency by dividing your mash efficiency by your conversion efficiency. Lauter efficiency is a function of your sparging process, the grain absorption rate, undrainable MLT volume and grain weight to pre-boil volume ratio. The following chart shows the maximum achievable lauter efficiency assuming 0 undrainable volume, and a variety of grain absorption rates.
If you aren't achieving the lauter efficiencies shown on the chart, you should look at:
Brewhouse efficiency will be negatively impacted by any losses between the BK and the fermenter (kettle trub losses, hose losses, etc.)
Brew on
Turns out the maximum SG of the wort in the mash is pretty much a function of only the water to grain ratio. So you can determine the conversion efficiency by dividing your actual mash SG by the maximum SG (from the table here.) You should be able to regularly achieve conversion efficiency of 95% or better. If not you need to mash longer (since you don't want to crush finer.)
After you calculate your conversion efficiency, you calculate your lauter efficiency by dividing your mash efficiency by your conversion efficiency. Lauter efficiency is a function of your sparging process, the grain absorption rate, undrainable MLT volume and grain weight to pre-boil volume ratio. The following chart shows the maximum achievable lauter efficiency assuming 0 undrainable volume, and a variety of grain absorption rates.
If you aren't achieving the lauter efficiencies shown on the chart, you should look at:
- Undrainable volume. Minimizing undrainable volume will increase your lauter efficiency.
- Recirculating more prior to running off. Both for initial run off and sparge run off.
Brewhouse efficiency will be negatively impacted by any losses between the BK and the fermenter (kettle trub losses, hose losses, etc.)
Brew on
I need to add nothing to Doug's post. Excellent information, as usual.
@doug293cz, I hope you plan to do an HBT article on troubleshooting efficiency issues sometime soon. Either that, or I hope you never get tired of repeating yourself
@doug293cz, I hope you plan to do an HBT article on troubleshooting efficiency issues sometime soon. Either that, or I hope you never get tired of repeating yourself
I need to add nothing to Doug's post. Excellent information, as usual.
@doug293cz, I hope you plan to do an HBT article on troubleshooting efficiency issues sometime soon. Either that, or I hope you never get tired of repeating yourself
Agreed. It would be nice to have a simple worksheet asking for all the key measurements.
Borneogoat
Active Member
So I brewed again this weekend with exactly the same Brew Boss settings, mill gap, and Beersmith calculations/settings, but different recipes. I got slightly confusing results.
Last week:
APA (6kg total grain)
60min mash, 60min boil
Est pre boil OG 1.048, actual 1.049 (close enough)
Est post boil OG 1.059, actual 1.059 (perfect)
Est pre boil volume 7.24gal, actual 7.8gal (+0.56gal)
Est post boil volume 5.5gal, actual 5.8gal (+0.30gal)
Summary: Hit target SGs, but too much water.
Possible correction: Use less strike water, around 0.56gal. However, pre & post boil overage different (-0.26gal). Maybe boil-off rate is lower than BS calculation and should raise factor in BS.
This week:
Belgian "Blond'ish" Ale (5.2kg grain + 0.7kg candi syrup will go into primary)
60min mash, 90min boil
Est pre boil OG 1.043, actual 1.044 (close enough)
Est post boil OG 1.050, actual 1.057 (+0.007)
Est pre boil volume 6.99gal, actual 6.8gal (-0.19gal)
Est post boil volume 5.5gal, actual 5.0gal (-0.5gal)
Summary: Mash SG good, but significantly over on post boil OG. Not enough water.
Possible correction: Need a little more strike water (0.18gal). Pre & post under-volume is different (-0.32gal). Boil-off rate is higher than expected, reduce factor in BS.
Comparison: First brew too much strike water and boil-off rate less than expected, but OG into fermenter good. Second brew not enough strike water and boil-off rate higher than expected, OG into fermenter too high. These results conflict, but are from the same settings. Any idea of what I need to tweak or factor I'm missing???
Last week:
APA (6kg total grain)
60min mash, 60min boil
Est pre boil OG 1.048, actual 1.049 (close enough)
Est post boil OG 1.059, actual 1.059 (perfect)
Est pre boil volume 7.24gal, actual 7.8gal (+0.56gal)
Est post boil volume 5.5gal, actual 5.8gal (+0.30gal)
Summary: Hit target SGs, but too much water.
Possible correction: Use less strike water, around 0.56gal. However, pre & post boil overage different (-0.26gal). Maybe boil-off rate is lower than BS calculation and should raise factor in BS.
This week:
Belgian "Blond'ish" Ale (5.2kg grain + 0.7kg candi syrup will go into primary)
60min mash, 90min boil
Est pre boil OG 1.043, actual 1.044 (close enough)
Est post boil OG 1.050, actual 1.057 (+0.007)
Est pre boil volume 6.99gal, actual 6.8gal (-0.19gal)
Est post boil volume 5.5gal, actual 5.0gal (-0.5gal)
Summary: Mash SG good, but significantly over on post boil OG. Not enough water.
Possible correction: Need a little more strike water (0.18gal). Pre & post under-volume is different (-0.32gal). Boil-off rate is higher than expected, reduce factor in BS.
Comparison: First brew too much strike water and boil-off rate less than expected, but OG into fermenter good. Second brew not enough strike water and boil-off rate higher than expected, OG into fermenter too high. These results conflict, but are from the same settings. Any idea of what I need to tweak or factor I'm missing???
Did a quick sanity check on your first set of numbers. Something is squirrelly in your calculations. To take 7.8 gallons from a gravity of 1.049 to 1.059 you'd only need to boil off about 1.3 gallons, not the two gallons you measured.
Didn't look at the second brew day numbers, but you might want to double check some things.
Borneogoat
Active Member
Hmmm, good point. Maybe I've recorded something wrong in the heat of the brewing moment.... This will make deciphering things much harder. I'll have to brew again and be very careful with my records next time. Guess its another 5gal of beer in the name of science! [Thank you Science]
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