WLP500 Flavor

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RPh_Guy

Bringing Sour Back
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I recently brewed a tripel with WLP500 (Chimay).

Early in fermentation, tasting revealed an incredible amount of cherry and plum flavor and aroma. When it finished fermenting, the dark fruit flavor had faded almost entirely, leaving a relatively clean, somewhat tart, very low phenol, beer with some banana.

I'm looking for a moderately fruity profile with cherry and plum. Some bubblegum would be fine.
Any tips for getting the most fruit out of this strain?

Questions:
How do you treat your starter and pitch rate?
Do you add nutrient? When?
Do you oxygenate or aerate? To what extent?
What pitching temp?
Do you let it free rise or control the ramp?
If controlled, how fast do you ramp?

Is the yeast profile variable by different OG, wort composition, percentage of sugar, or mash steps?
Does timing of the sugar addition have an effect?
Does the starting pH affect the flavor?

Any info is helpful, thanks!
 
I did not have an issue with the flavors. I fermented relatively low 68 I believe and 74 at the end.

I under pitched at about half what my calculator recommended. That tends to be the suggestion for belgians.
 
Hey, thanks for responding!
I have questions if you would be so kind.

Did you make a starter to hit your pitch rate (0.5M/mL/°P ?) or directly from the packet?

Did you control the temp and ramp it yourself or did you let it free rise?

Was it delicious right after fermenting or did it need age to clean up off-flavors?

I'd like to capture the very fruity character I tasted early in fermentation.

Thanks
 
Hey, thanks for responding!
I have questions if you would be so kind.

Did you make a starter to hit your pitch rate (0.5M/mL/°P ?) or directly from the packet?

Did you control the temp and ramp it yourself or did you let it free rise?

Was it delicious right after fermenting or did it need age to clean up off-flavors?

I'd like to capture the very fruity character I tasted early in fermentation.

Thanks

What was your fermentation schedule like?
 
Started at 65°F and increased 1°F daily, controlling the wort temperature (no free rise).
I added a fair bit of yeast nutrient too.
I used a vitality starter with wort from the batch.

It definitely didn't have any off-flavors from fermentation, even at 9% ABV.
I made the yeast too comfortable?
 
Started at 65°F and increased 1°F daily, controlling the wort temperature (no free rise).
I added a fair bit of yeast nutrient too.
I used a vitality starter with wort from the batch.

It definitely didn't have any off-flavors from fermentation, even at 9% ABV.
I made the yeast too comfortable?

I never know how to approach talking about these yeasts. There is certainly a generally accepted temperature control dogma around the big 3 (1214/500, 3787/530, and 1762/540) in particular but also "Belgian" yeast in general.

As far as the Chimay yeast is concerned, it never hurts to look at what Chimay actually does, even if it means we can't actually replicate that ay the homebrew level.

For one, Chimay produces a lab grown pitch for every batch and does not re-pitch their yeast. This is actually similar to what most people are doing at the homebrew level anyway. More of a side note I guess.

As far as fermentation is concerned, they pitch at 68 F and it reaches the low 80s by 4 days in. These temperatures are no doubt aided by the yeast itself and the large CCV fermenters they use. Obviously this could turn into an untenable scenario for the homebrewer given the fermenter geometries we are saddled with, temperatures, etc.

For a long time I have been researching the many variables at our disposal for fermentation with Trappist yeasts. The most important are as follows:

1.) Wort Composition (Amount of Starting Extract);
2.) Attenuation;
3.) Pitching Rate;
4.) Fermenter Geometry;
5.) Fermentation Temperature;
6.) Aeration

What are the variables we can control?

We know that Fermenter Geometry is out of our control and in order for the size of a fermenter to affect, in a significant sense, the ester and higher alcohol synthesis it has to be significantly larger than anything the typical homebrewer will be using. So that's out.

Wort Composition is an interesting one because we can control it, but it's tied in with Attenuation, especially in these types of beers, i.e. If we have a higher Original Extract (OE or OG), we may end up with lower attenuation, but if we drop the OE, we may get higher attenuation. If we keep our eyes on Chimay for the moment, we can see that their beers have lower OE values than would be expected by most and higher attenuation. We know that beers with higher OE exhibit higher levels of esters so we can utilize Wort Composition as a tool so long as we keep Attenuation in mind.

Pitching Rate is another variable we can control, especially if you do cell counts and have a good feeling for how much we are actually pitching. Even if you don't, the rate of pitching can be used to control how much growth we have in the initial phases of fermentation. What we mostly want to do, especially in these beers is promote a healthy amount of ester synthesis while limiting some (hot, solventy type flavors), but not all higher alcohols. We can buck the conventional wisdom here by pitching at a higher rate than "normal" for ales.

Aeration is a huge one. It is typical for most people to aerate the bejesus out of the wort because they have the fear of God in them that if they don't they won't have a healthy fermentation. As it turns out, there is a direct correlation between aeration and yeast growth, and yeast growth promotes higher alcohol synthesis. Not always a good thing when elevated temperatures are involved (more on that below). Lower Aeration and higher Pitching Rate can help to limit yeast growth and the promotion of undesirable higher alcohols.

Lastly, we have Fermentation Temperature. Frankly, yeast don't want to have the temperature they operate at limited. From the standpoint of a yeast cell, elevated temperature lets them rock and roll. Brewers, however, don't always have the best luck with elevated fermentation temperatures (especially with WLP500/WY1214), especially when conventional wisdom has them starting with high OE, aerating the hell out of the wort, using too much yeast nutrient, and underpitching for these types of beers. If we tweak some variables from above as discussed, we can modify temperature control to allow for healthy free rise with no adverse affects.

Sorry for blabbing on so much.

What do I recommend?

I have been using the following with 3787 (My house yeast) with great results. YMMV but I think it captures some tweaks to the "standard" practice that may get you what you are after:

1.) Shoot for lower Original Extract values (OE/OG) and let Attenuation drive the desired alcohol content.

2.) Pitch at a rate that may seem a little higher than what you are accustomed to, i.e. > 1.00 M/ml/P (I target 1.25)

3.) Reduce Aeration (if using Pure O2) or (like me) use a filtered air setup.

4.) Be careful with yeast nutrient. Technically wort has all the nutrients required and additional nutrient could have levels of Mg and Zn higher than required/what is healthy for the yeast.

5.) Do not control temperature at all. Pitch cool (62-64F) and let the beer free rise to completion. Certainly track temperature (I use a cheap digital thermostat with block letter readout in a thermowell) and record for posterity and revision. My basement is essentially a constant 64F ambient all year and I submerge the fermenter in a water batch and if I pitch at 64F, the temperature generally stays below 66 for the first 24-36 hours and then begins to rise naturally, with temperatures rarely exceeding 68F until 48 hours in. It then rises into the 70s and I don't attemporate at all.

I hope this helps!
 
Perfect, thank you!
I'll start by cutting the nutrients.

How about the rest of those variables? What does your process look like after you chill? Pitch rate? Aeration? Attenuation?
 
How about the rest of those variables? What does your process look like after you chill? Pitch rate? Aeration? Attenuation?
All right here are the details for my first attempt with clean Belgian yeast:

I was loosely following this recipe https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/...l-absolution-clone.137219/page-2#post-2179248

5 gal into fermenter
6.25 gal boil (60min)

Fermentables
11lb (80%) Belgian Pils
1.4lb (10%) German light munich
1.4lb (10%) Cane sugar (late in boil)

Hops (20 IBU)
1oz German Hallertau @ 60min
0.4oz Czech Saaz @ 30 min
0.8oz Czech Saaz @ 5 min

Mash
60 minutes at 150°F
No mash out. Batch sparge.

Water
51ppm calcium
61ppm chloride
40ppm sulfate

Yeast
35 days past manufacture.
500mL vitality starter (4 hours on stir plate) pitched at 65°F.
Calculated pitch rate 0.65M/mL/°P.
I can't remember for sure whether I did, but normally I stir/whip thoroughly to aerate (with drill stirrer) after pitching.
5g Fermaid O at 48 hours post-pitch.
Increased 1°F/day. Completed after approx 6-8 days. Bottled on day 11.

Equipment
7gal PET Fermonster. Silicone waterless airlock.
Temperature controlled via dual stage inkbird with probe insulated on the fermenter. +/- 1°F

Measurements:
Mash pH 5.57 (at ~15 min, room temp)
OG 1.074
FG 1.009
Apparent attenuation 87% (85% if you subtract the cane sugar from OG)
ABV ~9%

I have very good results pitching from vitality starters; zero off-flavors from fermentation even when underpitching by traditional metrics. ... So I'm not convinced the standard pitch rates apply to this starter process. The lag time is less than 24 hours.

Overall this was a good beer but my goal is to coax out more of the cherry and plum into the final product. It was super fruity (strong cherry and strong plum) when I tasted it after 48 hours but that all went away; it had subtle banana and almost imperceptible hints of cherry and plum when it finished, with a little yeast "bite"/tartness. Not really any phenol flavors beyond that bite (which is good, in my opinion).

I suspect the nutrient suppressed ester formation.
My temp schedule seems pretty similar to yours, no? It seemed to be finished after a couple days in the low 70s.
I also plan to increase the water minerals about 3-fold to provide more calcium.
I don't want to change too many variables at once.

FWIW my in-laws who drink a lot of belgian styles LOVED this beer (and insisted that I not change anything).
 
I made a starter, but I only made it 24 hours ahead, so I ended up under pitching probably less than I intended because I decanted (which means I probably poured about half of it down the drain because it floccs terrible. It was a 1.5l starter for a 10 gallon batch. 293b cells (maybe half that in reality)

I made a tripel, and I let it free rise. It was very fruity, but I used Mandarina Bavaria and some amber candi sugar, so both of those probably contributed.

It tasted good to me very early, but it was amazing a month later.

I really don't think they need to age, but getting the yeast to drop was a pain.

I made an American pale ale and threw this in to half of my batch for giggles and I liked it better than the WLP001 I put in the other half.
 
I need to copy the above by Scotty into some.sort of indestructible format!

But, could the wort composition have had anything to do with lack of fruity esters? I typically associate plum/cherry with the darker malts found in Dubbels, and not as much with people beers. Am I off base here? I've never used the Chimay strain.
 
I need to copy the above by Scotty into some.sort of indestructible format!

But, could the wort composition have had anything to do with lack of fruity esters? I typically associate plum/cherry with the darker malts found in Dubbels, and not as much with people beers. Am I off base here? I've never used the Chimay strain.
Definitely lots of fruit from Belgian yeast. These Trappist styles are very yeast-forward. Same for Belgian blonde.
 
Definitely lots of fruit from Belgian yeast. These Trappist styles are very yeast-forward. Same for Belgian blonde.
Yes, I get that (I've done a couple Dubbels with WLP 545 recently - I get dark fruits with those, but lots of dark sugars and Special B), but I have a hard time associating dark stone fruits with pale grists. Banana I get - that's the classic Westmalle strain ester. I suppose I should try it sometime.
 
I've used 4% Special B in a couple beers; in my experience it's definitely nothing like the fruitiness from trappist/abbey yeast. :)

I have not yet used dark candi syrups... but for what it's worth I have had great fruitiness from plenty of commercial pale beers.

Cheers
 
I need to copy the above by Scotty into some.sort of indestructible format!

But, could the wort composition have had anything to do with lack of fruity esters? I typically associate plum/cherry with the darker malts found in Dubbels, and not as much with people beers. Am I off base here? I've never used the Chimay strain.

Just to be clear, when I say wort composition, I’m really talking about Extract content, not ingredients. In this case O.G.
 
Perfect, thank you!
I'll start by cutting the nutrients.
I would strongly advise against it, especially if you're brewing with RO water. Zinc is a vital trace element that grain can not supply alone. Tap water usually has enough Zinc to supplement for healthy fermentation, not so when brewing with RO, obviously.
 
I would strongly advise against it, especially if you're brewing with RO water. Zinc is a vital trace element that grain can not supply alone. Tap water usually has enough Zinc to supplement for healthy fermentation, not so when brewing with RO, obviously.
That's an interesting thought.

I've seen a lot of "hype" about zinc and not much evidence to back it up. Do you have any scientific sources or some kind of comparisons you've run on the home brew level? How can you be sure you are adding enough yeast-accessible zinc, but aren't reaching toxic/inhibitory levels?

I don't think ABI's macrobrewing practices translate well to homebrewing; I pitch fresh yeast from a bio lab every single time. Presumably that yeast comes loaded with plenty of nutrient.
Beyond early flocc from S-04, I have never experienced a stalled fermentation, unpredicted low attenuation, sulfide, fusels, unwanted esters, diacetyl, acetaldehyde, or any other off-flavors from a beer fermentation since I started using RO water. Most of the time I use 1g of Fermaid K in the starter, but not always.
The only reason I added nutrients in this brew was because I had a tight production timeline and wanted be to 100% sure to avoid stalling or fusels from the added cane sugar.

If you think I still need nutrients, convince me. I'm open to ideas. :)
Do you have an alternate suggestion for increasing the esters from WLP500?

Thanks!
 
I just recently saw Zinc deficiency specifically mentioned as one of the reasons for acetaldehyde, when brewing with RO water. Will try to find the source...

Update: Because reduction of acetaldehyde to ethanol by ADH is zinc dependent, zinc deficiencies in wort may lead to excess acetaldehyde production, imparting a grassy, green-apple flavor to beer.
From: Zinc Interactions with Brewing Yeast: Impact on Fermentation Performance Raffaele De Nicola1 and Graeme M. Walker
 
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I would strongly advise against it, especially if you're brewing with RO water. Zinc is a vital trace element that grain can not supply alone. Tap water usually has enough Zinc to supplement for healthy fermentation, not so when brewing with RO, obviously.

The issue would be what the yeast use the Zn for.

It is presumably for yeast growth, but if you pitch enough active, healthy yeast, you wouldn't have to worry about that. My goal is to always limit yeast growth and/or slow down rapid growth to prevent undesirable higher alcohol content (WRT Trappist yeasts).
 
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I've heard of the zinc deficiency thing, but haven't looked up sources for this information. Not sure whether to believe it. On the other hand, I keep zinc tablets on hand to prevent and mitigate illness anyway; and it takes less than a minute to break one in half over my wort, wave it around for one second, then put the two halves back into the bottle. That's about how much is needed, is my understanding.
 
I've heard of the zinc deficiency thing, but haven't looked up sources for this information. Not sure whether to believe it. On the other hand, I keep zinc tablets on hand to prevent and mitigate illness anyway; and it takes less than a minute to break one in half over my wort, wave it around for one second, then put the two halves back into the bottle. That's about how much is needed, is my understanding.

Zn deficiency is definitely a real thing, it just depends on whether the promotion of yeast growth is a thing you desire. Maybe in a starter, but for me, I want to limit large/excessive yeast growth in primary fermentation. So for me, Zn deficiency helps me.
 
The issue would be what the yeast use the Zn for.

It is presumably for yeast growth, but if you pitch enough active, healthy yeast, you wouldn't have to worry about that.
Not just growth, of course not. Zinc plays a vital role in many processes inside a cell, including growth. A rationale is to have a healthy and young cell population at the end of the fermentation, as opposed to an old and functionally impaired one, because the yeast cells have much work to do at the end - absorb acetaldehyde, reduce VDK etc.

For instance quoting this https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1002/j.2050-0416.2011.tb00472.x :
Zn has multiple roles to play in yeast biology, acting as a structural or catalytic co-factor for a number of proteins, including enzymes associated with glycolysis and alcohol synthesis56,130. Zn deficiency results in the differential regulation of tens of genes in both shake flasks85,130 and chemostat cultures54 and approximately 3% of the yeast proteome requires Zn to function normally65. Interestingly, De Nicola and co-workers54 found that the genes whose transcription were regulated by Zn availability had varied biological roles, including the metabolism of storage carbohydrates and the biogenesis of mitochondria, as well as flavour development through the regulation of branched chain amino acid synthesising genes. Zn also has an important role in processes involving Zn-finger DNA-binding proteins25 such as Msn2p and Msn4p, which regulate the general stress response135. Furthermore, Zn appears to play a role in maintaining the redox balance within cells and its limitation can result in overproduction of reactive oxygen species (ROS), potentially resulting in DNA damage, necessitating an antioxidant response in the yeast cell

My goal is to always limit yeast growth and/or slow down rapid growth to prevent undesirable higher alcohol content (WRT Trappist yeasts).
Is there a correlation? I'm not sure anymore. Higher alcohols are formed by growing cells and resting cells too.
There's a recent study titled "The effect of pitching rate on the production of higher alcohols by top-fermenting yeast in wheat beer fermentation", in it:
1. Most higher alcohols are produced during stationary phase
2. Lower pitching rates result in lower levels of higher alcohols, although the alcohol concentration, sugar consumption, and Rdf exert no significant effects at different inoculum sizes.
3. This work provides significant evidence that the yeast cell
viability was reduced at lower inoculum sizes when cell
growth entered the stationary phase. This will likely have a
negative impact on the synthesis of higher alcohols during the
stationary phase and ultimately lead to the decreased levels of
higher alcohols at the lower inoculum sizes.


Maybe combined with lack of nutrients there's something in what you're suggesting...
 
Not just growth, of course not. Zinc plays a vital role in many processes inside a cell, including growth. A rationale is to have a healthy and young cell population at the end of the fermentation, as opposed to an old and functionally impaired one, because the yeast cells have much work to do at the end - absorb acetaldehyde, reduce VDK etc.

Don't get me wrong, I don't want to appear to be disagreeing with your statements or as antagonistic.

There is so much information out there about yeast health, fermentation variables, etc. that I sometimes get "lost in the sauce".

Speaking generally, however, I don't oppose nutrient at the right levels. I always go back to this thread, here on HBT, where a member reached out to Wyeast for values of trace minerals in the blend:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/wyeast-beer-nutrient-minerals.334882/

Let me see if I can whip up a little calculator for that...
 
If you paste the following into excel, you'll have a scalable nutrient dosing calculator based on the above values in the legacy HBT post:

Paste in B2:

Wyeast Amount
Wyeast Volume
Wyeast Dose
Mg
SO4
Zn
Mn
Adjusted Amount
Actual Volume
Actual Dose
Mg
SO4
Zn
Mn

Paste in C2:

2.2
18.93
=$T$4/$T$5
0.928
13.92
0.635
0.567
1
4.09
=T13/T14
=T8*($T$15/$T$6)
=T9*($T$15/$T$6)
=T10*($T$15/$T$6)
=T11*($T$15/$T$6)

Paste in D2:

g
l
g/l
mg/l
mg/l
mg/l
mg/l
g
l
g/l
mg/l
mg/l
mg/l
mg/l

EDIT: I didn't have the scaling correct. Fixed it up.
 
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Zinc plays a vital role in many processes inside a cell, including growth.
What do we know?
1. Zinc is important for yeast health. You've provided lots of evidence for this.
2. My yeast are perfectly healthy. I have lots of evidence for this.
3. Too much zinc is toxic. I think someone famous tweeted this once.

Let me answer my own questions by following some basic logic, since no one has scientific answers for me.
Q: Are zinc additions needed when home brewing with RO water if pitching fresh yeast?
A: Let's be perfectly honest: There is zero evidence supporting a need to add zinc in this circumstance. Since I do not experience off-flavors, my conclusion is that the yeast come to me stocked with adequate zinc levels or have some other mechanism for overcoming a zinc deficiency. (Let's assume that I can detect off flavors. It's my beer after all.)

Q: If I add zinc, how can I be sure I'm achieving the "correct" level?
A: Since we do not know how much zinc the yeast already contain, nor how much much zinc is in all the nutrients I use, it's clear I can neither determine the level that my yeast have nor how much I would need to add. Adding a random amount may lead to toxicity.

How about we please table this discussion about the "need" for zinc until I actually have an off-flavor from fermentation. Is that fair?

Keep in mind I'm trying to increase yeast flavor here, not make it more clean.
Any further suggestions to how to best accomplish this?

Thanks!
 
What do we know?
1. Zinc is important for yeast health. You've provided lots of evidence for this.
2. My yeast are perfectly healthy. I have lots of evidence for this.
3. Too much zinc is toxic. I think someone famous tweeted this once.

Let me answer my own questions by following some basic logic, since no one has scientific answers for me.
Q: Are zinc additions needed when home brewing with RO water if pitching fresh yeast?
A: Let's be perfectly honest: There is zero evidence supporting a need to add zinc in this circumstance. Since I do not experience off-flavors, my conclusion is that the yeast come to me stocked with adequate zinc levels or have some other mechanism for overcoming a zinc deficiency. (Let's assume that I can detect off flavors. It's my beer after all.)

Q: If I add zinc, how can I be sure I'm achieving the "correct" level?
A: Since we do not know how much zinc the yeast already contain, nor how much much zinc is in all the nutrients I use, it's clear I can neither determine the level that my yeast have nor how much I would need to add. Adding a random amount may lead to toxicity.

How about we please table this discussion about the "need" for zinc until I actually have an off-flavor from fermentation. Is that fair?

Keep in mind I'm trying to increase yeast flavor here, not make it more clean.
Any further suggestions to how to best accomplish this?

Thanks!

If I had to prioritize my method above, I would say reduce aeration and pitch at a higher rate while maybe letting the yeast free rise.

Much of the generally accepted knowledge about fermenting with Trappist yeast comes from playing it safe and not understanding the ways we can uncouple some of the variables.

I believe it was Tomme Arthur from Lost Abbey who proposed that basic regimen above in BLAM.

EDIT: Found it:

29BC0E73-A88E-465D-93EF-DF591ADD8361.jpeg
 
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3. Too much zinc is toxic. I think someone famous tweeted this once.
It looks like there needs to be LOTS of zinc for that. If you take a look at the article linked above, it says the following: "Wort Zn levels are variable but a value of 0.2 ppm Zn results in optimum fermentation time in standard gravity (ca. 12°P) worts. [...] Brewing yeast performance is, however, known to be unaffected by Zn concentrations as high as 500 ppm".
In general, the accepted range is 0.2-1.0 ppm though, flavor-wise.
Q: Are zinc additions needed when home brewing with RO water if pitching fresh yeast?
A: Let's be perfectly honest: There is zero evidence supporting a need to add zinc in this circumstance. Since I do not experience off-flavors, my conclusion is that the yeast come to me stocked with adequate zinc levels or have some other mechanism for overcoming a zinc deficiency. (Let's assume that I can detect off flavors. It's my beer after all.)
If anything, we can always ask Martin why he reached the same conclusion at https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/water-knowledge
Keep in mind I'm trying to increase yeast flavor here, not make it more clean.
Any further suggestions to how to best accomplish this?
You mean esters? I thought you knew zinc supplements substantially increases ester production. It's mentioned here for instance, in addition to a number of scientific articles.

BTW, if anything, nutrient blends containing zinc and amino acids stimulate ester production.
 
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If I had to prioritize my method above, I would say reduce aeration and pitch at a higher rate while maybe letting the yeast free rise.
+1 on lower aeration, this goes without saying for esters. I noticed that Stan Hieronymus mentions lower pitch rates being used by Belgian breweries in his book and the article, any thoughts?
 
If you take a look at the article linked above, it says the following: "Wort Zn levels are variable but a value of 0.2 ppm Zn results in optimum fermentation time in standard gravity (ca. 12°P) worts. [...] Brewing yeast performance is, however, known to be unaffected by Zn concentrations as high as 500 ppm".
You conveniently skipped the part about zinc being toxic in low levels (0.6ppm) without adequate manganese present. Do you recommend to supplement manganese too?

If anything, we can always ask Martin why he reached the same conclusion at https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/water-knowledge
Sure, we can ask Martin why he says zinc is toxic at 1ppm...

Any thoughts on Kai's experiment?
http://braukaiser.com/blog/blog/2012/06/22/the-effect-of-zinc-on-fermentation-performance/
He references a text stating zinc is toxic at 0.6ppm. However his experiment seems to show no effect by changing the zinc concentration.

Why all the conflicting information?

I thought you knew zinc supplements substantially increases ester production. It's mentioned here for instance, in addition to a number of scientific articles.

BTW, if anything, nutrient blends containing zinc and amino acids stimulate ester production.
I'm still a little skeptical, but all right.

I'll grab some Wyeast nutrient next chance I get.

If I had to prioritize my method above, I would say reduce aeration and pitch at a higher rate while maybe letting the yeast free rise.
Thanks again.

This is an interesting article.
https://byo.com/article/fermenting-belgian-style-beers/

I'm feeling good about my pitch rate so I don't want to change that variable on my next attempt but I will try lower aeration, free rise, and modifying my nutrients & water profile.
I understand I'm taking a risk by underpitching.

To allow free rise I should put the temp probe in a jar of water in my fermentation fridge?
 
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You conveniently skipped the part about zinc being toxic in low levels (0.6ppm) without adequate manganese present. Do you recommend to supplement manganese too?


Sure, we can ask Martin why he says zinc is toxic at 1ppm...

Any thoughts on Kai's experiment?
http://braukaiser.com/blog/blog/2012/06/22/the-effect-of-zinc-on-fermentation-performance/
He references a text stating zinc is toxic at 0.6ppm. However his experiment seems to show no effect by changing the zinc concentration.

Why all the conflicting information?


I'm still a little skeptical, but all right.
Look, I don't want to be pushy over this Zinc supplement issue, simply looking for answers just like you.
As I understand it, the whole toxicity thing stems from 1977 research, which investigates the effect of demineralised wort on yeast performance. Control untreated wort had 0.14 ppm Mn, which kind of makes the whole toxicity thing rather theoretical, at least for all-malt worts, as only 0.1 ppm Mn was found to be enough.
Forgot to mention that Handbook of Brewing Kai is referring to quotes the same research with same conclusions - 0.6 ppm Zn toxic only when Mn is below 0.1 ppm.
I'll grab some Wyeast nutrient next chance I get.
I'm going to try something different - next time I'll collect spent yeast from some low hopped hefe/belgian batch, and will add a spoonful at whirlpool to provide amino acids, along with some diluted Zinc Sulphate Heptahydrate to the fermenter.
 
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+1 on lower aeration, this goes without saying for esters. I noticed that Stan Hieronymus mentions lower pitch rates being used by Belgian breweries in his book and the article, any thoughts?

If you look at the breweries using very low (by generally accepted standards) pitch rates, Duvel and Rochefort come instantly to mind, you see that they have incredibly healthy, active yeast. Rochefort in particular uses a form of Drauflassen whereby they brew a single beer per week with multiple batches filling the fermenter. On successive brewdays they add the fresh batch to the previous day's batch with additional yeast.

I have experimented with under-pitching before and while i have personally had success, as have others, pitching more cells is probably much closer to what most people do. Underpitching is more likely to turn out bad then slightly overpitching.
 
BTW, if anything, nutrient blends containing zinc and amino acids stimulate ester production.

You always want to remember to account for Sulfate with a nutrient blend as well. Since the medium for Zinc, Magnesium, and Manganese is most often Zinc Sulfate, Magnesium Sulfate, and Manganese Sulfate, you have the potential to add non-trivial amounts of sulfate to the finished profile.

Just food for thought.
 
You conveniently skipped the part about zinc being toxic in low levels (0.6ppm) without adequate manganese present. Do you recommend to supplement manganese too?

I know that many of the common nutrients supplement Zinc, Magnesium, Manganese, Sulfate, and Potassium.

For Wyeast Nutrient, you can expect Zn, Mg, Mn, and SO4 as the major players. For their recommended dose:

Dose Rate = 0.116 g/l (0.439 g/gal)

Magnesium (ppm) = 0.928
Sulfate (ppm) = 13.92
Zinc (ppm) = 0.635
Manganese (ppm) = 0.567

If you want to change the dose rate, you can expect the following change in minerals:

Magnesium (ppm) = 0.928 * ( New Dose Rate / Stock Dose Rate )
Sulfate (ppm) = 13.92 * ( New Dose Rate / Stock Dose Rate )
Zinc (ppm) = 0.635 * ( New Dose Rate / Stock Dose Rate )
Manganese ppm) = 0.567 * ( New Dose Rate / Stock Dose Rate )

For Fermax, you can expect Zn, Mg, Mn, K, and SO4 as the major players. Their recommended dose is very high, but if we change it to give comparable Zinc values to Wyeast:

Dose Rate = 0.322 g/l (1.219 g/gal)

Potassium (ppm) = 57.86*
Magnesium (ppm) = 3.178*
Sulfate (ppm) = 13.72*
Zinc (ppm) = 0.632*
Manganese (ppm) = 0.117*

*These values are based on the %'s of constituent parts and my assumption (a good one IMO) that my mg values for each mineral part is correct. Fermax is 40% by Weight Dipotassium Phosphate, 10% Magnesium Sulfate, and 10% Yeastade 50 (of which 5% is Zinc Sulfate and 1% is Manganese Sulfate).

To allow free rise I should put the temp probe in a jar of water in my fermentation fridge?

Take it out of the fridge!
 
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If you look at the breweries using very low (by generally accepted standards) pitch rates, Duvel and Rochefort come instantly to mind, you see that they have incredibly healthy, active yeast. Rochefort in particular uses a form of Drauflassen whereby they brew a single beer per week with multiple batches filling the fermenter. On successive brewdays they add the fresh batch to the previous day's batch with additional yeast.
Ah, that explains a lot! Drauflassen with non-aerated wort is very powerful ester producer, although it also stimulates yeast growth if I'm not mistaken...
I have experimented with under-pitching before and while i have personally had success, as have others, pitching more cells is probably much closer to what most people do. Underpitching is more likely to turn out bad then slightly overpitching.
That's perfectly acceptable approach. On the other hand, I've seen Lallemand recommends to pitch half of regular rate for their Munich dry yeast to increase isoamyl acetate. There's no consensus in scientific literature either, as it seems to be strain specific, so healthy pitch may be a safest bet.
 
Ah, that explains a lot! Drauflassen with non-aerated wort is very powerful ester producer, although it also stimulates yeast growth if I'm not mistaken...
That's perfectly acceptable approach. On the other hand, I've seen Lallemand recommends to pitch half of regular rate for their Munich dry yeast to increase isoamyl acetate. There's no consensus in scientific literature either, as it seems to be strain specific, so healthy pitch may be a safest bet.

I take liberties with 3787 because it's my "house" yeast. I know it well.
 
I recently brewed a tripel with WLP500 (Chimay).

Early in fermentation, tasting revealed an incredible amount of cherry and plum flavor and aroma. When it finished fermenting, the dark fruit flavor had faded almost entirely, leaving a relatively clean, somewhat tart, very low phenol, beer with some banana.
Something just crossed my mind while I browsed through my notes. I've experienced similar issue with two last Hefe batches, while ones before that were fine. A notable difference I see is the last batches were not cold crashed immediately (ones before were on 4th-5th day since pitch). I wonder if residual yeast esterase activity may be coming into play here, so it's critical to take the beer off yeast ASAP to preserve these esters?

Do you chill or cold crash after fermentation? For how long was your beer fermenting?
 
Something just crossed my mind while I browsed through my notes. I've experienced similar issue with two last Hefe batches, while ones before that were fine. A notable difference I see is the last batches were not cold crashed immediately (ones before were on 4th-5th day since pitch). I wonder if residual yeast esterase activity may be coming into play here, so it's critical to take the beer off yeast ASAP to preserve these esters?

Do you chill or cold crash after fermentation? For how long was your beer fermenting?

Interesting observation.

If we go to BLAM and read about the Trappist breweries and how they handle the beer after primary fermentation is completed, we see:

Chimay - Centrifuges after primary fermentation and holds the beer at 32 F for 3 days.
 
Zinc Sulphate Heptahydrate to the fermenter.
19L batch?

0.15mg/L * 287.53 g/mol / 65.38 g/mol * 19L / 1000mg/g =
0.013g to achieve 0.15ppm zinc.
Time for a stock solution!

If you look at the breweries using very low (by generally accepted standards) pitch rates, Duvel and Rochefort come instantly to mind, you see that they have incredibly healthy, active yeast.
In my mind, this is exactly what a vitality starter achieves. The yeast are at peak performance when pitched -- not exposed to alcohol, tired from fermenting, or dormant from cold crashing.

The article from BYO said other Trappist breweries underpitch as well.
Take it out of the fridge!
The fridge is in my garage. Ambient in my garage can range from ~20°F - 100°F depending on the time of year. I think I need some kind of control?
On the other hand, I've seen Lallemand recommends to pitch half of regular rate for their Munich dry yeast to increase isoamyl acetate.
I've been extremely successful underpitching (no starter, ~0.25M/mL/°P) WLP300 Hefeweizen with a tailored temperature schedule.
Conversely, I've overpitched WLP300 and it led to a clean profile almost like american ale yeast -- practically no esters or phenols.

Do you chill or cold crash after fermentation? For how long was your beer fermenting?
No cold crashing but I did leave it for maybe 3-4 days after it finished. Because I bottle condition, extended yeast contact is inevitable. I don't think that's a problem.
Tasting it would be an easy way to be sure.
 
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