Upgrading to All Grain - What do I need

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Grundysidemount

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Hello all,

I had purchased the premium Beer Brewing Kit with Kegging system earlier this year. It has been amazing. I have done 4 extract batches with it an have been beyond happy. link below for what I have.

https://www.morebeer.com/products/premium-beer-brewing-kit-kegging-system.html


I would now like to start doing all grain batches. I would like to keep all my stuff stainless and am wondering what else I would need to add to my kit to make this happen. I have a 3 tap keggerator, so if you could let me know what I need to be able to do 1 batch in a day, and also let me know what would be needed to do 3 batches at the same time. I do 5 gallon batches

Thank you in advance.
 
You've already got a decent sized kettle and a chiller, so you could start all-grain simply by buying a bag for BIAB.

My preference would be to buy a cheap cooler and a bag to mash in (it also helps for maintaining mash temperatures) or a cooler and bazooka screen, so that you can sparge into the kettle, but many BIABers only use the one vessel.

A grain mill is also very useful - LHBS grain crush can be quite ordinary.
 
By 'three batches at the same time' do you mean brew all three in one day, or have three fermenting at once but brewed on different days?
 
Do you want to do Brew-in-a-Bag? That's the simplest way to do all-grain. All you need is a bag (Wilserbags is the source I use), a way to hoist it out of the kettle, and crushed grain.

That's the bare requirement. You could, by contrast, do a mash tun; some use coolers for that (I have) and some use a kettle for that (I do).

The only concern I might have with your setup is the 8.5-gallon kettle is a bit on the small size for BIAB, but it will work. You can add top-off water if it's a big grain bill.

You can get grain crushed at your local homebrew store, or buy it from places like Morebeer or Ritebrew. But in the end, you'll be happier if you get your own grain mill and buy in bulk. The grain mill I'd suggest for a beginning all-grain brewer is the Cereal Killer. It's $99 including shipping from https://www.homebrewing.org/Cereal-Killer-Grain-Mill_p_2310.html

It can be motorized with a drill, which is nice. Then you can buy grain in bulk (it'll save a LOT) and the savings can pay for the mill.

Attached are a few pics showing some ways I've done these things.

biabbag.jpg biabgarage.jpg biabgaragedoor.jpg biabpulley.jpg biabquilt.jpg biabsetup.jpg biabunderlet.jpg
 
One other thing I'd suggest you consider is fermentation temperature control. You can do that many ways, from cheap to hideously expensive.

If you can find a tall dorm-style refrigerator, that would suffice; add an Inkbird 308 temp controller, a seedling heat mat, and you have temp control, which is something most experience brewers would tell you produced a great leap forward for their beer.

Here's a pic showing how I have done that using such a fridge:

minifermchamber.jpg

You can see the Inkbird on the fridge to the left of the small one (I use the big fridge as a ferm chamber too), and in this case it's a Fermwrap heat mat that is wrapped around the fermenter.
 
I agree with mongoose. Start out doing biab . It's simple and won't require a bunch of extra equipment. If your planning on doing bigger batches at one time you may prefer a traditional mash set-up. Cheers
 
I am not looking to do a Brew in Bag.

Most likely I will start with just brewing 1 batch each day and ferment 3 batches at once. But I would like to get to the point to be able to brew 3 batches in one day. I know it will be a ton of more equipment and pricey, so maybe not worth it for a simple home brew.
 
One other thing I'd suggest you consider is fermentation temperature control. You can do that many ways, from cheap to hideously expensive.

If you can find a tall dorm-style refrigerator, that would suffice; add an Inkbird 308 temp controller, a seedling heat mat, and you have temp control, which is something most experience brewers would tell you produced a great leap forward for their beer.

Here's a pic showing how I have done that using such a fridge:

View attachment 630321

You can see the Inkbird on the fridge to the left of the small one (I use the big fridge as a ferm chamber too), and in this case it's a Fermwrap heat mat that is wrapped around the fermenter.


I actually am looking for a chest freezer that will fit my 3 Fermonster Carboys as we speak. Luckily I only do IPAs and my closet sits at 68 degrees for now, we will see when summer hits and temps rise.
 
I am not looking to do a Brew in Bag.

Most likely I will start with just brewing 1 batch each day and ferment 3 batches at once. But I would like to get to the point to be able to brew 3 batches in one day. I know it will be a ton of more equipment and pricey, so maybe not worth it for a simple home brew.

Do you mean three batches in one day using different recipes, or just 15 gallons of beer? If you use a traditional mash tun setup, you can figure on probably 3.5-4 hours of time per batch; is that what you are talking about?

And out of curiosity, why not BIAB?
 
I agree with mongoose. Start out doing biab .

The problem the OP will have is the size of their kettle. It's not quite big enough for a traditional full-volume BIAB. They're either going to need to use top-up water (impacting efficiency) or use a second vessel for mashing (which can still be BIAB....it doesn't make much of a difference either way though).
 
I actually am looking for a chest freezer that will fit my 3 Fermonster Carboys as we speak. Luckily I only do IPAs and my closet sits at 68 degrees for now, we will see when summer hits and temps rise.

Here's one thing to consider, depending on how you're envisioning this. Trying to control temps on three different beers at different points in fermentation is going to be interesting. I have done it in my larger ferm chamber, which will fit two fermenters at once. You can really only control the temp of one beer at a time and if they use different yeasts or you want them at different temps, you're going to find that very tough to do.

I was able to do two batches in the same fridge by staggering their brew days. The problem is that yeast is exothermic, meaning it produces heat while fermenting. You can expect a 5-10 degree increase in temp over ambient temps. Since an Inkbird can only control the freezer for one beer....how will you deal with that?

Not trying to rain on your parade, just making sure you go into this with eyes open.

fermchamber2a.jpg fermchamber2b.jpg
 
I am not looking to do a Brew in Bag.

Most likely I will start with just brewing 1 batch each day and ferment 3 batches at once. But I would like to get to the point to be able to brew 3 batches in one day. I know it will be a ton of more equipment and pricey, so maybe not worth it for a simple home brew.

For two consecutive batches, it doesn't need to be a ton of equipment and pricey. It can be if you want shiny bling though! Three batches in a day is a bit trickier or time consuming.

All you need is a mash tun (either a second stainless kettle or a cooler - as I stated already, my preference is for a cooler - they're cheap and hold mash temperatures easily) and a filter of some sort. A bag for BIAB is easy and cheap (why don't you want to use it?) as is a false bottom or bazooka screen. It really makes little difference, although the BIAB method lets you hang or squeeze the bag which improves efficiency. Steps:
1. Heat strike water in your boil kettle.
2. Mash (grains and strike water in your mash tun).
3. While mashing, heat strike water for batch 2. Transfer to fermenter at end of mash 1.
4. Runoff wort into boil kettle.
5. Sparge if you want to (cold water is OK).
6. At the same time, boil batch 1, dump grains from batch 1 and mash in batch 2. Batch 2 mashes while batch 1 boils.

To do three mashes in a day, a Hot Liquor Tun (third vessel) makes things easier and faster, but is still a long brew day!
 
The problem the OP will have is the size of their kettle. It's not quite big enough for a traditional full-volume BIAB. They're either going to need to use top-up water (impacting efficiency) or use a second vessel for mashing (which can still be BIAB....it doesn't make much of a difference either way though).

Yeah, I'd prefer a 10-gallon kettle for that. Maybe that's why he wants a mash tun. I've actually got a bag that fits my mash tun, essentially making it a BIAB in a mash tun.

That's probably the easiest way to mash in a separate vessel, as the bag can be hoisted and drained, or drained through a valve and then a sparge done, and there's less concern about a stuck vorlauf or sparge.
 
Do you mean three batches in one day using different recipes, or just 15 gallons of beer? If you use a traditional mash tun setup, you can figure on probably 3.5-4 hours of time per batch; is that what you are talking about?

And out of curiosity, why not BIAB?

3 different recipes - But the more I think about it, Too much equipment and too expensive

To be honest, I was told not to by quite a few people I have met at brew festivals. I havent done a ton of research on the differences. Also my buddy is moving from the east coast to here and loves to brew and he doesnt use it, so I thought it would be easier for him to teach me the same process he uses. Maybe I am looking too much into it. I am still a rookie and trying to learn all I can
 
Here's one thing to consider, depending on how you're envisioning this. Trying to control temps on three different beers at different points in fermentation is going to be interesting. I have done it in my larger ferm chamber, which will fit two fermenters at once. You can really only control the temp of one beer at a time and if they use different yeasts or you want them at different temps, you're going to find that very tough to do.

I was able to do two batches in the same fridge by staggering their brew days. The problem is that yeast is exothermic, meaning it produces heat while fermenting. You can expect a 5-10 degree increase in temp over ambient temps. Since an Inkbird can only control the freezer for one beer....how will you deal with that?

Not trying to rain on your parade, just making sure you go into this with eyes open.

View attachment 630323 View attachment 630324


To be honest I assumed that I have 3 IPAs they would all be at the same temp. I didnt think about if I brew 3 batches ( one each Day) that the temps would need to be different? dont I want to keep the temp between 66 and 68 through the whole process.

And rain away, I need to know all this before I screw something up.
 
The process is still basically the same (BIAB versus other methods). The bag is basically just a filter that, unlike other filters, can't get stuck and can be lifted and drained. Traditional BIAB was single vessel, full volume (no-sparge) but it doesn't have to be. If you want to do multiple batches in a day, a multi-vessel system will be faster. It doesn't need to be expensive unless you get into technical recirculating systems.
 
3 different recipes - But the more I think about it, Too much equipment and too expensive

To be honest, I was told not to by quite a few people I have met at brew festivals. I havent done a ton of research on the differences. Also my buddy is moving from the east coast to here and loves to brew and he doesnt use it, so I thought it would be easier for him to teach me the same process he uses. Maybe I am looking too much into it. I am still a rookie and trying to learn all I can
Imho if you build a multi vessel 5 gallon system at some point you will regret it. Biab is a great way to brew. It's only real downfall is it can be cumbersome at larger scales. Additionally fwiw I primarily brew on a 3 vessle eherms system. No bias here. Cheers
 
To be honest I assumed that I have 3 IPAs they would all be at the same temp. I didnt think about if I brew 3 batches ( one each Day) that the temps would need to be different? dont I want to keep the temp between 66 and 68 through the whole process.

And rain away, I need to know all this before I screw something up.

No rain here, just trying to help you avoid a decision you'd like to have back.

Let's assume that you're brewing a beer whose fermentation temp you want to keep at 66 degrees (common temp, btw). If you kept that fermenting beer in a room at 66 degrees, the actual temp of the fermenting beer will likely be between 71 and 76. Yeast express different flavors depending on temps, and if you let the beer warm too much, you'll likely get flavors you weren't intending.

So, you need to control temp. In a single-fermenter approach, you'd put it in a fridge or freezer, put a heat mat around it (so you can raise temps at the end to let the yeast clean up after themselves), attach the temp probe from the Inkbird to the side using foam to isolate it from ambient, or use a thermowell, and then you'd be able to control the temp to within a degree. When the fermenting beer got too warm, the fridge or freezer would go on. When temps were too low or you wish to raise it up, the heat side of the Inkbird turns on the heat mat.

When you have multiple beers from different days in the same ferm chamber, they're out of step as to the yeast's exothermic reaction. With my 2-batch approach, here's what I did (not saying you should do this, it's just an explanation so you can understand the logic):

I brewed Batch 1, put it in the ferm chamber, attached the probe, and let it go, holding temps where I wanted them. I brewed another batch a couple days later, after the krausen had fallen on Batch 1; I moved the temp probe from Batch 1 to Batch 2, and then used a second Inkbird to control the heat mat on Batch 1. Since Batch 2 would have more exothermic activity, the fridge would cool it down when needed. Problem was it would cool Batch 1 down too much, which is why I had the heat mat on Batch 1 controlled by the second Inkbird.

Thus, when Batch 1 was cooled too much by the Inkbird/Refrigerator responding to Batch 2's heat, the second Inkbird would add heat to Batch 1, keeping it where i wanted.

I think you could do something similar with a freezer with three batches in it, but you'd need 3 Inkbirds (probably) and 3 heat mats, and then just keep moving the probe controlling the freezer from batch to batch. Not sure if it would work on batches brewed 3 consecutive days, I'd have to think about it.

Now, having said all that--and hopefully it makes some sense--you've only brewed 4 extract batches, no all-grain as of yet, so you still have some process issues to iron out. I'd be focusing on getting the beer to be good, one batch at a time, before trying to do multiple batches spread over several days. If you try to do that right off the bat, and the beer isn't quite right, is it because you haven't nailed down the all-grain process, or because you haven't figured out the temp control issues during fermentation?

One last thought: you might consider 3 small fridges instead of one larger freezer. That way you control each individual batch as you see fit, and can alter temp profiles and such as you wish. They're not as cheap as a freezer if you buy new, but you can find them used on Craigslist. If it were me, I'd rather have 3 separate ferm chambers as they would give you the greatest flexibility--and would probably take up about the same amount of space.

But--one thing about homebrewing is we all get to make the choices that work best for us, it's supposed to be an enjoyable enterprise. Take the above as suggestions, and enjoy the journey.
 
I was just thinking about another option for the OP - buy a 20 gallon kettle and a method for heating it (electric or gas). For three batch days, mash in the 7.5 gallon kettle and boil in the 20. For single batches, use single vessel BIAB in the 7.5 gallon with top up water. A single 15 gallon boil can be creatively made into three different beers by using:
different yeasts
different dry hop (or whirlpool hops)
different steeped grains (boil steeped wort and add to fermenter)
DME to boost gravity
water to reduce gravity
bittering extract or hop-tea to boost bitterness
fruit/spices
sugar/dextrose to add alcohol without body/flavour

You can even remove batches from the boiling wort at different times of the boil by running off 5 gallons to the 7.5gal kettle for chilling while the remainder keeps boiling. There are lots of options.
 
No rain here, just trying to help you avoid a decision you'd like to have back.

Let's assume that you're brewing a beer whose fermentation temp you want to keep at 66 degrees (common temp, btw). If you kept that fermenting beer in a room at 66 degrees, the actual temp of the fermenting beer will likely be between 71 and 76. Yeast express different flavors depending on temps, and if you let the beer warm too much, you'll likely get flavors you weren't intending.

So, you need to control temp. In a single-fermenter approach, you'd put it in a fridge or freezer, put a heat mat around it (so you can raise temps at the end to let the yeast clean up after themselves), attach the temp probe from the Inkbird to the side using foam to isolate it from ambient, or use a thermowell, and then you'd be able to control the temp to within a degree. When the fermenting beer got too warm, the fridge or freezer would go on. When temps were too low or you wish to raise it up, the heat side of the Inkbird turns on the heat mat.

When you have multiple beers from different days in the same ferm chamber, they're out of step as to the yeast's exothermic reaction. With my 2-batch approach, here's what I did (not saying you should do this, it's just an explanation so you can understand the logic):

I brewed Batch 1, put it in the ferm chamber, attached the probe, and let it go, holding temps where I wanted them. I brewed another batch a couple days later, after the krausen had fallen on Batch 1; I moved the temp probe from Batch 1 to Batch 2, and then used a second Inkbird to control the heat mat on Batch 1. Since Batch 2 would have more exothermic activity, the fridge would cool it down when needed. Problem was it would cool Batch 1 down too much, which is why I had the heat mat on Batch 1 controlled by the second Inkbird.

Thus, when Batch 1 was cooled too much by the Inkbird/Refrigerator responding to Batch 2's heat, the second Inkbird would add heat to Batch 1, keeping it where i wanted.

I think you could do something similar with a freezer with three batches in it, but you'd need 3 Inkbirds (probably) and 3 heat mats, and then just keep moving the probe controlling the freezer from batch to batch. Not sure if it would work on batches brewed 3 consecutive days, I'd have to think about it.

Now, having said all that--and hopefully it makes some sense--you've only brewed 4 extract batches, no all-grain as of yet, so you still have some process issues to iron out. I'd be focusing on getting the beer to be good, one batch at a time, before trying to do multiple batches spread over several days. If you try to do that right off the bat, and the beer isn't quite right, is it because you haven't nailed down the all-grain process, or because you haven't figured out the temp control issues during fermentation?

One last thought: you might consider 3 small fridges instead of one larger freezer. That way you control each individual batch as you see fit, and can alter temp profiles and such as you wish. They're not as cheap as a freezer if you buy new, but you can find them used on Craigslist. If it were me, I'd rather have 3 separate ferm chambers as they would give you the greatest flexibility--and would probably take up about the same amount of space.

But--one thing about homebrewing is we all get to make the choices that work best for us, it's supposed to be an enjoyable enterprise. Take the above as suggestions, and enjoy the journey.


That made sense to me thank you so much. I think you are right and I may be trying to bite off more thn I can chew. I will start with single batches for all grain until I have it dialed in, then I will think about increasing the work load.

Do you have a good link on BIAB vs standard all grain, if not I will search through the forums, I am sure there are plenty. Looking for a step by step on each style so I can see the process differences.


Thank you again to all of you for that amazing information and keeping me from going to hard to soon.
 
Looking for a step by step on each style so I can see the process differences.

There are many ways to BIAB, and many ways to brew non-BIAB. The differences within BIAB systems and within non-BIAB systems is (IMO) greater than the differences between them. The bag is simply a filter system. A BIAB system can be complex with pumps, heating and 3 vessels, or a simple single pot with no sparge (traditional BIAB). A non-BIAB system might also be 3 vessels with RIMS or HERMS tubing, or it might be a $20 cooler and $8 bazooka screen that sits on the kitchen bench gravity fed into a cheap pot. There are also many (relatively expensive) all-in-one systems. There's also the decision between electric and gas.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/show-us-your-sculpture-or-brew-rig.46578/
is a good place to start. And the BIAB forum. And don't forget 'How to Brew' by John Palmer. 1st Edition is free online.
 
That made sense to me thank you so much. I think you are right and I may be trying to bite off more thn I can chew. I will start with single batches for all grain until I have it dialed in, then I will think about increasing the work load.

I think that's very wise. One way to help you do that is to ask where do you want to be, as a brewer, in 6 months or a year? There's a learning curve, you're already well along it, but there's more.

BTW, do you know the single most difficult thing to learn for new brewers?

Patience. :)

Do you have a good link on BIAB vs standard all grain, if not I will search through the forums, I am sure there are plenty. Looking for a step by step on each style so I can see the process differences.

I don't, but here's a really good way to think about the difference: with BIAB, you remove the grain from the wort; with traditional mash tun approaches, you remove the wort from the grain.

BIAB is faster as a rule; the usual way does not involve sparging, which typically is done w/ traditional approaches. As soon as you hoist the bag, you can start heating the wort.

One reason to do traditional methods is your kettle is a little small for BIAB. A 10-gallon kettle would give you some extra room. You can get around that with using top-up water or try to sparge the bag, but a 10-gallon kettle would be easier and you'd enjoy the process more

But with traditional methods, you'll be transferring wort from the mash tun to the boil kettle, and won't have much more than 6.5 gallons of that for a 5 gallon batch.

A downside to BIAB is you need some way to hoist the bag; you don't need the ability to hoist more than about 30 pounds max as the wort drains from it as you hoist. A ratcheting pully lets you hoist a bit, wait a bit to drain, hoist a bit, and so on.

Obviously, no pulley with a traditional mash tun. I've actually used a BIAB bag in my mash tun to simplify some of that process, and if you get a stuck vorlauf or sparge, you could lift that bag.

Regardless, either way you also will want a grain mill; to do BIAB, you generally need a bit finer crush, and the LHBS almost certainly cannot or will not give you that. Because of that finer crush, with BIAB you almost always are done with conversion of the starches to sugar by 30 minutes, where with more coarsely-crushed grain, you probably need the whole hour. And with a grain mill, you can buy grain in bulk, and you'll save a lot of money that way.


Thank you again to all of you for that amazing information and keeping me from going to hard to soon.

That degree of caution and introspection is just about...perfect, I think. This really is a lot of fun--enjoy the journey.
 
Do you have a good link on BIAB vs standard all grain, if not I will search through the forums, I am sure there are plenty. Looking for a step by step on each style so I can see the process differences.
This is the first “Sticky” in the BIAB forum— https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/biab-brewing-with-pics.233289/
Reading through it made up my mind for me. Everyone will develop their own process just as I have done, but this link will give you a good idea of the basic method. I will suggest more insulation for the mash step than what he shows in his photos. That also depends on your geographic location (I’m in Colorado and need the extra insulation. I use a Reflectix wrap plus old sleeping bag to maintain my temps).
My brother brews on a 10 gallon 3V system and I brew with the bare bones BIAB method and I can say the latter is much more simple with much less equipment required.
You’ll have to do a lot of research and decide what you think will be best for your situation/preferences. It’s like asking why you like Ford or Chevy... you’re going to get a million different opinions.
 
This is the first “Sticky” in the BIAB forum— https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/biab-brewing-with-pics.233289/
Reading through it made up my mind for me. Everyone will develop their own process just as I have done, but this link will give you a good idea of the basic method. I will suggest more insulation for the mash step than what he shows in his photos. That also depends on your geographic location (I’m in Colorado and need the extra insulation. I use a Reflectix wrap plus old sleeping bag to maintain my temps).
My brother brews on a 10 gallon 3V system and I brew with the bare bones BIAB method and I can say the latter is much more simple with much less equipment required.
You’ll have to do a lot of research and decide what you think will be best for your situation/preferences. It’s like asking why you like Ford or Chevy... you’re going to get a million different opinions.

Let me extend this just a bit. At the outset, one isn't quite sure what temps one's BIAB system should target. It all depends on how much water, how much grain, how cold the grain is, and how cold (Colorado, e.g.!) the ambient surroundings are.

When I was doing a traditional mash tun in a cooler, I had to preheat the cooler with a gallon of boiling water, and make sure the grain was room temp. Once I left the crushed grain in the garage overnight when the temps dropped to about 48 or so. That meant the grain temp was about....48 or so. Guess what? It cooled the strike water more than I'd expected, and the mash temp was lower than my target. Now, always room temp so I'm not trying to account for that.

When I did the cooler mash tun, typically I'd have 4 gallons of strike water, 4 gallons of sparge water. The strike water was heated to 168, and with the grain and preheating the mash tun, that was about right, producing a mash temp of about 152.

But with BIAB, I'd typically have 7.25 gallons of strike water. That would be too much for the grain to cool down if I heated it to 168, so I heated it to 162, and the larger mass of water was balanced by the lower temp.

When anyone does BIAB the first time, they need to come close, but that's all. It'll still be beer, whether the mash temp is 154 or 149. Take very good notes on temps and volumes and weights of grain, then correct the temp of the water the next time.

Then good insulation. Maybe like this or, if it's a cold ambient temp, more yet:

biabquilt.jpg
 
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