Is it a bad idea to take wort from brewing and using it as a starter?

I am wondering if it is a bad idea to take, say, a bit less than 0.5 gallon of wort from a brewing and freeze it.

Then let it melt and boil it (maybe even dilute it if necessary) and use it as the base for my starters?

I kinda find it expensive to buy DME here in Europe.

It can be done, but the further you get above 1.040 OG, and the more hops you use, the less effective your starter will be.

GuldTuborg said:

It can be done, but the further you get above 1.040 OG, and the more hops you use, the less effective your starter will be.

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I'd use the wort that is actually at the pre-boil stage.

That is normally not too high in gravity and has no hops at all.

Elysium said:

I'd use the wort that is actually at the pre-boil stage.

That is normally not too high in gravity and has no hops at all.

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Make sure you boil it, at least briefly, to sanitize it before freezing it. I do it all the time. It's called a "real wort starter".

Elysium said:

I'd use the wort that is actually at the pre-boil stage.

That is normally not too high in gravity and has no hops at all.

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Yes, so if you use sweet wort, you can add water at get it to the best gravity for starters, and boil to sanitize. If you have a pressure cooker, you can even can it for storage at room temps. Sounds like a good idea to me, if you mind the usual sanitation concerns.

GuldTuborg said:

Yes, so if you use sweet wort, you can add water at get it to the best gravity for starters, and boil to sanitize. If you have a pressure cooker, you can even can it for storage at room temps. Sounds like a good idea to me, if you mind the usual sanitation concerns.

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Hm....this sounds good. To store it at room temperature.
Can you tell me more about the procedure or give me a link to a website that explains it?

Can I bottle it instead of canning? (You will probably say I can...but I am not sure I can sterilize bottles and caps for the procedure. Problem with caps is the plastic seal. They dont stand heat.)

When you have that sweet wort it is like a magnet to all kinds of bacteria. One of particular concern is botulin. While it is fairly rare, it can be deadly so the best practice if you intend to store at room temperature is to pressure can it. The botulin spores can survive boiling but cannot withstand the higher temperature of the pressure canning. Treat the wort as a low acid fruit or vegetable for the pressure canning schedule.

Elysium said:

Hm....this sounds good. To store it at room temperature.
Can you tell me more about the procedure or give me a link to a website that explains it?

Can I bottle it instead of canning?

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To second the poster above me, you cannot use standard bottling procedures for this; it has to be prepared in a pressure cooker. Otherwise, you risk your life should you consume anything that's become tainted (which is a possibility). Botulism can be deadly.

If you're interested, all you have to do is follow standard canning procedures in a pressure cooker. High pressure for 10-15 minutes, depending upon mason jar size is probably fine, but there's no problem with cooking it longer in this case. Better safe than sorry.


And on your last point, to be perfectly clear, 99.something% of us following standard homebrewing practices do not sterilize anything we work with. I'm sure there are some with some specialty equipment or chemicals, but it's not the norm.

Yooper said:

Make sure you boil it, at least briefly, to sanitize it before freezing it. I do it all the time. It's called a "real wort starter".

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RM-MN said:

When you have that sweet wort it is like a magnet to all kinds of bacteria. One of particular concern is botulin. While it is fairly rare, it can be deadly so the best practice if you intend to store at room temperature is to pressure can it. The botulin spores can survive boiling but cannot withstand the higher temperature of the pressure canning. Treat the wort as a low acid fruit or vegetable for the pressure canning schedule.

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Is there a compelling reason to not just freeze/store it however and then boil it when you thaw it for a starter, rather than boiling it ahead of time and worrying about contamination?

JPrather said:

Is there a compelling reason to not just freeze/store it however and then boil it when you thaw it for a starter, rather than boiling it ahead of time and worrying about contamination?

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The threat of botulism may yet exist. I don't know how it deals with freezing temps, and how long frozen wort may last. It would be safe to use for a while, no doubt, but I don't know how long.

The problem with C. Botulinum is that once it takes hold, even if you heat the food it's in hot enough to kill it, it's still not safe to eat. While the bacteria itself can be killed by heat, the toxin it creates is not affected.

To be honest, if you don't have a pressure cooker, and DME is really tough to come by, I'd just consider making a starter sized mash and use that once it's converted. It ought to take little equipment, not much oversight or time, and you know it's safe. Or, perhaps freeze what you'll use in a fairly short period of time. But I wouldn't mess with trying to preserve unfermented wort for very long. The risks are not worth the effort saved.

GuldTuborg said:

The problem with C. Botulinum is that once it takes hold, even if you heat the food it's in hot enough to kill it, it's still not safe to eat. While the bacteria itself can be killed by heat, the toxin it creates is not affected.

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The toxin is actually heat labile and can be destroyed by heating to 80C for 10 minutes.
http://www.fda.gov/food/foodborneillnesscontaminants/causesofillnessbadbugbook/ucm070000.htm

Pressure canning kills vegetative cells and deactivated the toxin. But the starter wort must be boiled or canned appropriately to be any good, when you consider the threat of common beer spoilage bugs.

ColoHox said:

The toxin is actually heat labile and can be destroyed by heating to 80C for 10 minutes.
http://www.fda.gov/food/foodborneillnesscontaminants/causesofillnessbadbugbook/ucm070000.htm

Pressure canning kills vegetative cells and deactivated the toxin. But the starter wort must be boiled or canned appropriately to be any good, when you consider the threat of common beer spoilage bugs.

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Good info. thanks,

ColoHox said:

The toxin is actually heat labile and can be destroyed by heating to 80C for 10 minutes.
http://www.fda.gov/food/foodborneillnesscontaminants/causesofillnessbadbugbook/ucm070000.htm

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I stand corrected. Thanks for the information, and sorry for not being more diligent in seeking out answers before I passed them along.

GuldTuborg said:

While the bacteria itself can be killed by heat, the toxin it creates is not affected.

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That is incorrect. The toxin can be destroyed by heating it to the correct temperature for a certain amount of time. Directly from the CDC....

Despite its extreme potency, botulinum toxin is easily destroyed. Heating to an internal temperature of 85°C for at least 5 minutes will decontaminate affected food or drink.

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http://www.bt.cdc.gov/agent/botulism/clinicians/control.asp

That being said I still wouldn't risk it.