Very novice question!

Hey guys / gals,

I've been brewing wine successfully for the last 3 years. My results are consistently successful, and I really enjoy the wine.

Now, I've tried brewing beer a few times in the past, and have never been very happy with the results.

The last beer I made was a Cooper's Bitter kit, and while I do not hate it, I definitely don't love it. There is a strong after taste that seems to be common to each of the kits I have made in the past. It's definitely an off flavor and is best described as rubbing alcohol, with a soapy character.

A few months ago I bought "How To Brew" by John Palmer, and it's opened up my eyes to how big the world of home brewing is. It's also given me hope.

After reading some of the book, I've come to the conclusion that the strong alcohol flavor is probably due to fact that the kit is extended using highly fermentable sugar.

I currently have a can of Cooper's Draught I received as a gift, and want to try making something good with it. I purchased a bag of Amber dry malt extract, and plan to use that instead of the sugar. I understand that this will probably throw off the balance of hops bitterness, but I don't feel like I'm ready to start experiementing with boiling the wort and adding hops. (I also do not have the equipment).

I would like to try the kit, with the only change being DME instead of sugar. I will see what that does for the beer, and then move forward from there. (I like taking baby steps!)

My questions :

1) I'm not certain how to introduce the DME. Can I simply dilute it into hot water, then mix that into my LME/WATER mix? I do not have a large pot for heating the entire mix.

2) This may sound really novice, but do I need to close the lid on my primary bucket tightly? For the wine, I always just rest the lid on top, but don't lock it. Does the yeast need fresh air to work? Oddly enough, this information is not found in the book, and I'm assuming it is because it is so basic that it doesn't even need to be mentioned. But I still can't find an answer in all my searches! My fear is that because my lid does not have an airlock hole, it wouldn't allow anything out, and would build pressure.

3) Do you think using DME in place of refined sugar will help my beer, and do you think it is a good first step in the right direction?

Thank you for your time! It is much appreciated!

1) That will work
2) Leave the lid loose. Yeast go through three stages: Growth, fermentation, cleanup. They only need oxygen for the first stage and there should be plenty by the time you have the wort done.
3) Yes and yes.

DME will almost definitely give you a better tasting beer than white sugar. I would recommend waiting until near the end of boil to add the DME. When I use DME I simply turn the flame off, and then slowly stream the DME into the pot with on hand while whisking (bought a huge whisk from a kitchen supply store just for this) vigorously. I fouund that putting the DME into a large jug makes it easier to control the flow than pouring from a bag.

By doing a late boil addition of DME you will get about a 10% higher hops utilization which should off-set the slightly sweeter finish you will bet with DME when compared to white sugar.

A "hot" alcohol flavor can also be caused by fermenting a temperature to high for the yeast. Check the recomendations on your yeast.

In somplaces in the US are made from Beets rather than cane (they make a lot of sugar from beets where I live in Michigan) and this can also be a source of odd flavors.

During beer fermentation it is important to keep out oxygen. O2 can lead to oxidation and strange flavors in the beer and also allow microbes other than yeast to grow that would normally not be a problem in a an anaerobic environment. A tight fitting lid with an air-lock to allow excess C02 to escape is standard procedure for brewing.

Hope this helps.

You're on the right track, however to get a decent beer, you're going to need to start boiling at least a portion of the brew.

DME is going to taste better then sugar, that is for certain. I'd at least boil the DME in a couple quarts or a gallon of water, whatever the biggest boiling pot you have in the kitchen will take.

And then if you're using the "dump warm water and extract in a bucket" method, just put the boiled DME and water in the bucket with your extract.

With that said, you should at least shoot for getting a pot that can hold 2 gallons for boiling, for extract.

As far as primary fermentation goes, you should really seal the bucket or fermenter and attach an air lock or blow off hose. The answer is yes you can ferment without sealing the vessel, because during vigorous fermentation the CO2 layer will protect the beer ... but the more the beer can contact the outside atmosphere, the more chance you have for a contamination.

Every brewer has to start somewhere, just keep good notes as to what tastes good and "works" for you, and just try to improve your process as you go.

Cheers

~r~

Thanks for your replies guys!

I think I will cut a hole in the lid of the bucket (there is a blank spot that looks like it was meant to be punched out) and will just stick my air lock on there.

I have never boiled the LME before. I don't believe the instructions called for that. I will definitely look into getting a large pot for this, if that's all that is required. I wonder what I have been missing by just using it cold.

Funny you guys should mention the temperature of the fermentation. The room I use is the utility room in my apartment, and it tends to stay around 25-26°C (77-78°F) in there all the time. I know the yeast I have used in the past and the one I have now calls for 18-24 (64-75°F). I didn't think it would matter so much since it was close. I bet some of the harsh alcohol flavor comes from that. Problem is, I don't really have any other rooms in my small apartment, and that room is not heated, it's just a small room that contains the hot water heater tank. Maybe I will relocate brewing pots to under the counters in the kitchen, though that will be hard to work with / around.

I appreciate everyone taking the time to reply! You guys rock!

Agtronic said:

Thanks for your replies guys!

I think I will cut a hole in the lid of the bucket (there is a blank spot that looks like it was meant to be punched out) and will just stick my air lock on there.

I have never boiled the LME before. I don't believe the instructions called for that. I will definitely look into getting a large pot for this, if that's all that is required. I wonder what I have been missing by just using it cold.

Funny you guys should mention the temperature of the fermentation. The room I use is the utility room in my apartment, and it tends to stay around 25-26°C (77-78°F) in there all the time. I know the yeast I have used in the past and the one I have now calls for 18-24 (64-75°F). I didn't think it would matter so much since it was close. I bet some of the harsh alcohol flavor comes from that. Problem is, I don't really have any other rooms in my small apartment, and that room is not heated, it's just a small room that contains the hot water heater tank. Maybe I will relocate brewing pots to under the counters in the kitchen, though that will be hard to work with / around.

I appreciate everyone taking the time to reply! You guys rock!

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Since we are living in Quebec, unfortunately we have to deal with the constant variations of temperatures in here. The best way to control it is by using one of these:



They are really easy to find and they are cheap.

Just fill it with water and let you fermenter sit in it. You can adjust the temperature by throwing frozen water bottles if needed. This way I can keep my temperature between 64F and 68F.

Good luck !

Yep, fardy just beat me to it. I was about to say, get a small tub and sit it in your bathroom or somewhere, put your fermenter in it and put some water around it, then just add ice or ice packs once in awhile during the primary fermentation. It will keep the temps down a bit.

Another consideration is that the fermentation temps inside the bucket are a good deal higher then the surrounding area because fermentation actually produces heat.

What it all comes down to, is if you can keep the temp of that fermenter between 55-70F, you'll get a better beer. But, I wouldn't worry overly about it. Just do what you can do. It's a constant evolution to make better beer with us, lol.

cheers
~r~

Another thing to keep in mind- if your room temperature is 78 degrees, the actual fermentation temperature could have been closer to 90 degrees!

The reason is that fermentation is exothermic- it produces heat just from the work going on inside. At cooler temperatures, say 62 degrees, you might notice the temperature of the fermenter going up to 68 degrees. But, the warmer it is, the warmer it gets. It's a vicious cycle- the warmer temperature causes the yeast to get more vigorous and go gangbusters. Of course, that produces even more heat, which causes the yeast to work harder and faster, which increases the temperature. It's not uncommon for a "hot" fermentation to be 10 degrees warmer INside the fermenter than room temperature.

Your yeast may say "ferment at 62-70 degrees". That is the fermentation temperature, NOT the room temperature. You can buy a cheap "stick on" thermometer for the outside of a fermenter, or even an aquarium strip themometer to get an idea of the actual temperature.

With winemaking, yeast love those 80 degree temperatures. With beer, the yeast may be happy there, but the beer will taste solventy, fruity (think bananas), rubbery, and "hot" if it's fermented over about 72 degrees.

Ive asked this question before as to boiling the LME/DME would improove quality.

The answer is no, especially when using a coopers kit, where everything has already been converted. Boiling would be a waste of time.

Most of my brews have been from coopers kit, and I can kind of side with you on the fact they all have an after-taste,(not soapy though) but Im pretty sure thats just the style of beer and the yeast temps. Ive brewed all ales since temps are a problem.

I now have a question, is there a difference between DRY malt extract compared to regular ? How does this affect boiling it ?

According to book “Designing Great Beers” DME lasts longer on the shelf without going “off” and darkening in color. DME has higher odds of being fresh than LME. DME has a higher “extract potential” than LME.
I’m still a noob, but getting decent results using steeping grains to add flavor to DME recipes. Overview:
Heat 2-3 gal water in 5 gal kettle to 175, flame off. Put 1-3 pounds of crushed grain in muslin bag and let steep for 30 minutes (lid on to hold temp). For the alt bier I just made, I used .5lbs Munich 10, .14lbs carafe II, and .08lbs debittered black (Castle).
Flame on, bring to boil. Flame off (take SG reading) and add your DME or LME. I used 3.3lbs of Munich LME and 3.3lbs of Pilsen LME. (I noticed I had a much less ‘violent’ boil with LME vs. DME – the “hot break” was less apparent/non-existent). Flame off during extract addition makes it easier.
Flame on and slowly bring to boil. Mark time. This is the beginning of my “60 minute boil”. I add first hops addition in a small muslin bag. Watch intently to prevent boil-over by controlling heat, spray bottle of water.
After hot break, chill out, have a home brew, cry over your lousy fantasy football team (bad weekend). Some recipes call for addition of hops at, say, 20 minutes remaining, 5 minutes remaining, at flame-out, etc.
With 5 minutes left in boil, immerse home-made wort chiller into kettle to sterilize.
Flame out, turn water on wort chiller, bring temp down to less than 80degrees in about 20 minutes.
Dump into primary fermentation vessel, add (chilled) water to get a bit over 5 gallons. Take SG reading.
Aerate wort (sloshing, drill paddle, etc; search forum for ‘aerate wort&#8217, pitch yeast. (search forums for pitch yeast, yeast starter, etc seal lid on primary fermenter, add half-shot vodka (or starsan) to fermentation lock.
Transfer vessel to swamp cooler (free if you have a cooler already) or “son of fermenter” (just made one, it rocks)
Have another home brew, wait in vain for someone to clean up after me, have another home brew, clean up after myself.

Thanks alot guys! I've been reading about malt, hops, boils, fermenting, yeast and everything for the last few days. Last night I dreamt of this all night! I guess I'm developping a real interest. I found some hop shops in the area, and can't wait to get into boiling my own stuff!

Agtronic said:

Thanks alot guys! I've been reading about malt, hops, boils, fermenting, yeast and everything for the last few days. Last night I dreamt of this all night! I guess I'm developping a real interest. I found some hop shops in the area, and can't wait to get into boiling my own stuff!

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And so it begins. In six months, you'll be asking about water treatments, mash vs. lauter efficiency, and designs for fully-automated HERMS brew rigs. Welcome to the hobby^H^H^H^Obsession.

jds said:

Welcome to the hobby^H^H^H^Obsession.

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Biggest understatement I've read on the boards today.

Welcome Agtronic and yes, it's an obsession. Especially if you're already dreaming about it!

Okay, sorry to bring this back up again.

I was about to drill the lid to my fermenting bucket (to put in an airlock) and then I noticed that there is no rubber seal. There acually seems to be sections of "bumps" inside the groove that keep the lid from touching all around. Basically, it looks like it's designed to stay "open" even when the lid is clipped on. Is this possible? It's a wine fermenting bucket. If this is right, there's obviously no point in drilling the lid, it's just time I get a primary fermentor I can actually use for beer!

Not exactly sure what you mean by the bumps but if it's meant for fermenting wine, it should be airtight. If you are drilling your own hole, you will need to buy a grommet. You can pick them up in various sizes at a hardware store. You'll probably want to buy one before you drill the hole to make sure it fits.

edit: actually, if you're going to use an airlock, I think there are only one or two sizes that will work with it so your best bet would be to bring the airlock with you to the hardware store and find a grommet that fits, then find a drillbit that accomodates that.

Sorry, I'm not very good with words. Basically, there are three equally-spaced spots in the groove of the lid, that have little bumps that seem to keep the bottom of the groove from completely contacting the bucket's lip.

I'm not sure if I'm going to go get another bucket with a proper lid, or if I will just ferment the beer in my current bucket and then transfer it into a glass secondary after the vigourous phase ...

The first beer I made was the Cooper's Draught. I followed the directions and used Dextrose. It was beer but it wasn't all that good. I remade it at my brothers house a couple of months ago. We used pale 1-1/2 Litres of pale LME instead of sugar. Wasn't even close to the same beer. It was quite nice.

Great to hear it will make a good difference.

I started a new brew yesterday. I ended up just starting it in my wine primary. So there is no airlock, I simply left the lid on top without snapping it on.

I went to the local brewing supply place and they didn't have any lids with provisions for an airlock. So to test my current lid, I filled the bucket with water and snapped the lid on, then turned it onto its side. Water comes out pretty easily, so I guess this bucket is designed to "breathe" when closed.

I decided to simply use this bucket, and rack it into a glass carboy once primary fermentation has ended.

However, now it has been 24 hours, and the brew is not making a sound, and there is no smell. I (stupidly) lifted the lid to take a peek, and there is no foam, no activity, no nothing.

I did everything the same as I always have in the past, except this time I hydrated my yeast instead of just sprinkling it on top.

I used a fresh pack of Munton's ale yeast. I hydrated it in 105 F degree water that was pre boiled, and made sure the wort was at approx. 74 F ...

The fermentor has been in a room that is at a rock solid 70 F ...

I don't know whether I should throw in a second pack of yeast, and if so, does it matter if I go use a different yeast? (I still have the Cooper's ale yeast that came with the hopped LME can.

I'm giving it another 24 hours, maybe it's taking longer because I used DME instead of corn sugar?

On a positive note, the smell of the wort was amazing, I wanted to have a glass of it before throwing it into the fermenter!! But I controlled myself.

Thanks guys!

Against my better judgment, I peeked at it again, I figured it's probably dead now. There is a little bit of foam, but not entirely covering it. Just patches here and there, and it seems to be moving ever so slightly. Still no fermenting smell though.

My first instinct is to leave the damn thing alone, but I can't keep my mind off it. I desperately want to add another packet of yeast before it's too late, but I'll see what's up tonight when I get home.

Any ideas?

Thanks!

Well, I pitched some new yeast. Decided to sprinkle the Cooper's ale yeast over the top. I figure I don't have much to lose at this point. I just hope my peeking under the lid a few times didn't ruin it for good.

On another note, I decided to check the SG to see if it has gone down at all, and it actually went UP since I first started it. My OG reading was 1.032 and now it's 1.040 ... is that even possible?

Agtronic said:

Well, I pitched some new yeast. Decided to sprinkle the Cooper's ale yeast over the top. I figure I don't have much to lose at this point. I just hope my peeking under the lid a few times didn't ruin it for good.

On another note, I decided to check the SG to see if it has gone down at all, and it actually went UP since I first started it. My OG reading was 1.032 and now it's 1.040 ... is that even possible?

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Pitching the other yeast won't hurt anything. I'd suggest in the future not using water above 90F to hydrate your dry yeast, though. I'm pretty sure it can't handle temperatures that warm all that well. I never even rehydrate my dry yeast, but some people swear by it. I'd guess by now that second pack of yeast you put in is going to town and you have a nice krausen in there. It'll look nasty!

Peeking at it a few times won't hurt anything, as long as you don't toss a dead squirrel in or something anyway. I've read about a lot of horrible things happening to beer that didn't manage to ruin it, it's tougher than most think to wreck beer. I think the thread's called "What have you done to your beer that didn't ruin it?" or something close to that...

The gravity readings are probably from the top-off water mixing in with the LME. If you took a sample and it wasn't mixed completely, the heavy sugary wort sinks to the bottom, while the water weighs less so it floats on the top. The yeast will stir it around as it starts to munch on it, so it'll get stirred up.

As far as your non-sealing lid goes, there are plenty of people that use tin foil to cover their primaries, and even with a good gasket on your bucket that looks like it will seal, you're not going to get a very good seal. As long as there's something covering the top so nothing can fall in you should be just fine.

So, welcome to the obsession! There's tons of stuff you can learn, or you can just keep making nice simple kit beers. Either way, you'll end up with beer and there are plenty of good kits out there, so don't think you have to get away from the kits to get decent beer. I'd suggest looking into a kit with some steeping grains once you get a pot big enough to boil a few gallons in, though. Opens up way more options.

Thanks a lot for the insight. Very much appreciate it. I feel much better about my "questionable" brewing process.

However, after 24 hours, the wort still looks dead. There is a little bit of foam here and there, and what look like white lumps formed of tiny tiny white bubbles. Definitely no krausen. I'm just going to sit back and relax, and take a reading in a few days. Who knows ...

I am already getting deeper into the obsession. I haven't even brewed a successful extract beer and I'm already dreaming of a mash tun and planning future recipes. haha!

Thanks again!!

Okay, this is really strange. The SG is 1.020 now. So I guess it's actually fermenting? I never saw a krausen. It's like it went straight into a secondary fermentation.

Going to rack it into a secondary and hope for the best!

You won't always get a krausen. I've made the same recipe three times, once there was a bit of krausen, once there was more, and once it nearly blew the stopper out of my carboy. I just go off the thermometer on the outside of my fermenters and when they bottom out at ambient temp, I'll take a sample and they're either done or within a couple of points.

Yeast are like a bunch of kids, you never know how they'll react. Well, other than the whole breeding part, anyway...

Thanks for your help!