Results from juice, yeast and sugar experiments

C-Rider · Jul 7, 2012

Sort of followed your read:
1.5 gallons of Tree Top juice
12 oz sugar
S04 yeast
6/15 SG=1.062
6/20 SG=1.034
6/24 SG=1.028
6/29 SG=1.010
7/02 SG=1.002
7/07 Cold Crashed in secondary

C-Rider · Jul 10, 2012

Cold crashing for 3 days now. So far refer is only down to 41*. Is that enough? Bottle on weekend after 1 week of crashing? Taste is dry, thinking bout adding a little fresh juice. Will that give me bombs?

CvilleKevin · Jul 11, 2012

Cold crashing for 3 days now. So far refer is only down to 41*. Is that enough?

It would be better to go colder if you can, but 41 should be enough to get S04 to drop. You can judge to some extent by how it looks. The carboy should have gone from light and opaque to darker and fairly clear by now.

Bottle on weekend after 1 week of crashing? Taste is dry, thinking bout adding a little fresh juice. Will that give me bombs?

Yeah, 1.002 is fairly dry. It will get more apple taste back over time. My experience has been that the drier the ciders finish, the longer they need to age to take the edge off the acids that are left over when you ferment off all the sugar. Yes, adding fresh juice will increase the likelihood of bombs, because in addition to more sugar, you will also be adding more nutrients and the possibility of introducing wild yeast. Adding turbinado is safer if you want it sweeter and dont want to wait, or else keep it cold.

Since you used commercial juice, I'd be real careful about bottling these in glass. If you do, I'd recommend drinking one every few days or so and put them all in the fridge or pasteurize the bottles if the carb starts to build. Folks on the HBT forum have had mixed results with cold crashing. I believe the key to doing this right is (1) be really careful on the racking not to pick up any trub. Dont try to get every last drop out of the carboy when you rack it after the crash. Leave a pint or so behind which you can drink while cleaning up. (2) Use low nutrient juice so that nutrient levels are nearly/completely depleted by the time of the crash. That way, if a few yeast cells do make it though the final rack, they will be unlikely to multiply. If you live in apple country, the easiest way to get low nutrient juice is to look for an organic orchard. If you're not in apple country, its a bit of a crap shoot. The big commercial orchards tend to use nitrogen fertilizers to pump up their juice yields, which makes for more nutrients in the juice.

C-Rider · Jul 11, 2012

CvilleKevin said:
It would be better to go colder if you can, but 41 should be enough to get S04 to drop. You can judge to some extent by how it looks. The carboy should have gone from light and opaque to darker and fairly clear by now.

Not sure why it won't drop lower. It's one of those apt size refers. I have another that can freeze beer in bottles so maybe I should switch the two putting my beer ready to drink in the one that won't go below 41. BTW it's in a white 2 gallon bucket so I can't see any color. It was VERY clear when I transfered to "secondary" bucket.

Yeah, 1.002 is fairly dry. It will get more apple taste back over time. My experience has been that the drier the ciders finish, the longer they need to age to take the edge off the acids that are left over when you ferment off all the sugar. Yes, adding fresh juice will increase the likelihood of bombs, because in addition to more sugar, you will also be adding more nutrients and the possibility of introducing wild yeast. Adding turbinado is safer if you want it sweeter and dont want to wait, or else keep it cold.

Since you used commercial juice, I'd be real careful about bottling these in glass. If you do, I'd recommend drinking one every few days or so and put them all in the fridge or pasteurize the bottles if the carb starts to build. I have a good supply of plastic Gatoraide bottles and or the 1/2 gal plastic the juice came in. What do you think of those?Folks on the HBT forum have had mixed results with cold crashing. I believe the key to doing this right is (1) be really careful on the racking not to pick up any trub. Dont try to get every last drop out of the carboy when you rack it after the crash. The trub was very solid and I was able to get almost all the liquid out w/out it even slidding as I tipped the bucket. Never saw trub that solid. Leave a pint or so behind which you can drink while cleaning up. (2) Use low nutrient juice so that nutrient levels are nearly/completely depleted by the time of the crash. That way, if a few yeast cells do make it though the final rack, they will be unlikely to multiply. If you live in apple country, the easiest way to get low nutrient juice is to look for an organic orchard. If you're not in apple country, its a bit of a crap shoot. The big commercial orchards tend to use nitrogen fertilizers to pump up their juice yields, which makes for more nutrients in the juice. No apples grown here in Hawai`i so I'm stuck w/buying juice.

As we say in the islands Mahalo Nui Loa thanks very much for all you have done in this cider arena. I'm thinking about starting my next batch this Saturday.
Steve

CvilleKevin · Jul 12, 2012

Plastic Gatorade bottles work fine. I used them for a whole season before I started bottling. I'd recommend them for at least the first couple batches, until you are sure that your juice and process results in stable results. Plus, you can experiment with adding back juice or sugar and not have to worry about re-ferments bursting bottles.

C-Rider · Jul 12, 2012

CvilleKevin said:
Plastic Gatorade bottles work fine. I used them for a whole season before I started bottling. I'd recommend them for at least the first couple batches, until you are sure that your juice and process results in stable results. Plus, you can experiment with adding back juice or sugar and not have to worry about re-ferments bursting bottles.

Thanks Kevin, not to start cleaning them bottles. Only have about 1.75 gallons so a little math and I'll know how many to clean. :ban:

JtotheA · Jul 30, 2012

I know you heard this over and over but thanks for sharing all this info. Since I've been experimenting with all sorts of ale yeasts, I figured I'd post this here...
Picked up a vial of wlp575 Belgian Yeast Blend at the LHBS (that was expired and discounted, haha) and wow, I was quite pleased! Although had a lil too much must in the primary and had to put on a blow-off tube because the airlock got all funked up

I enjoy being able to drink my cider green and after 1-1/2 weeks in primary it got down to 1.25 and I racked half and cold crashed and let the other half go to 1.008 (which was dryer than I normally go). My first racking at 1.025 tasted great after cold crashing for a couple days. And amazingly was very clear! Actually looks like apple juice in a glass. In my experience, this yeast is at the top of my list...along with Notty and S-04 of course! Thought I'd add that I let it ferment in my cool basement and I used a mix of store-bought "grown in the USA juice"...half Treetop and half Musselmans. Added only two cans organic concentrate to boost SG close to 1.06. The whole reason for this post is to say that this batch became very drinkable quickly and if anyone is looking to try something different, this yeast worked real nice with my storebought selections. This one was my "made in the USA batch". Paid a lil more, but was quite worth it. After racking out the primary, I just dumped 4 more gallons of some cheaper juice right in the primary and this stuff is gonna finish very shortly! Added some cherry juice to it this time around. Still trying to determine if liquid yeast is worth the extra money. This was a check in the yes column!

CollegeCider · Aug 8, 2012

Just out of pure curiosity, what would happen if you used 2 yeasts in the same batch? would one over crowd the other or could they put 2 different spins on how a cider tastes in the end. I'm sure there has to be someone who has tried this.

notjustgc · Aug 8, 2012

CollegeCider said:
Just out of pure curiosity, what would happen if you used 2 yeasts in the same batch? would one over crowd the other or could they put 2 different spins on how a cider tastes in the end. I'm sure there has to be someone who has tried this.

I've done this once or twice with beer. I've had some success by using two strains that prefer different temperatures. I add both strains simultaneously (from two small, independent starters) at the higher temperature, then let the beer cool gradually over the first week (say, start at 75 and cool to 62).

You could theoretically add two yeasts that ferment at the same temp and have them coexist, but I'm not sure I can think of two strains (at least if we're staying within saccharomyces cerevisiae) that would offer any flavor-related benefit from blending.

Of course, if we're NOT strictly using saccharomyces, things get a lot more interesting... Has anyone tried a brett cider?

caburdet78 · Aug 18, 2012

Anyone have any good results with Trappist yeast?

JtotheA · Aug 19, 2012

caburdet78 said:
Anyone have any good results with Trappist yeast?

The White Labs 575 that I posted about in this thread (a few posts up) is a blend of 2 Trappist and 1 Belgian Ale strains. Loved how it turned out. Definitely added some complexity to plain ole juice without actually adding anything other than juice and yeast and a little sugar to get the must to 1.06

Jenkins · Sep 1, 2012

Hey, I am new here and new to home brewing in general. This post is an absolutely fantastic wealth of information. After reading this and a few other stickies many times, I have one question: the "vinegary" taste that the original poster described as being noticeable in cider made from pasteurized juice, but NOT prevalent in similar UNpasteurized juice is an effect of what? Is this something that stove-top pasteurization in bottles can prevent? A lot of the posts I've read puts a lot of stock in letting your cider age to the correct taste; is this not the case with ciders made from a pasteurized juice?
It is impossible to get unpasteurized juice where I live, and making a finished product that has taken the better part of a year to finally enjoy is an idea that really interests me. So any clarification on this would be incredibly appreciated. I'm starting my first fermentation this upcoming week! Super excited!

CvilleKevin · Sep 2, 2012

The reason that the all the pasteurized batches went to vinegar was a) I didnt use any preservatives on those batches, b) I wasnt as careful keeping oxygen off them during racking as I could have been and c) it was almost 12 mo later.

The reason that this did not happen with the unpasteruized batches is because up until 3-4 years ago I always added k-meta to unpasteurized juice to kill the wild yeast. The k-meta also acts as a preservative, so a year later none of the ciders had turned.

I dont like the effect that the k-meta has on my cider, so I dont use it, or any preservatives. For unpasteurized juice, this does increase the chance that acetobacter can take hold and turn the cider. Because I rack my ciders a couple times during the crashing process, there is more chance for air to get in, than if you just let it ferment to dry in the same carboy. I give my carboys a shot of CO2 before and during racking so there will always be a blanket of CO2 on the surface of both carboys during the rack. Also fill any headspace with a shot of CO2 after the secondary. That has helped a lot. Also before turning to vinegar, there will usually be a malic acid taste that starts to build. If you sulfite the cider then, that will stop it. Out of 39 kegs last season, 4 started to turn by this summer. Two I caught and sulfited and two went to vinegar.

furner · Sep 10, 2012

I have always used S-04, I did a small batch in April with Nottingham. This was a weird mystery blend of sweet cider and I actually like the Notty better than the S-04. Pretty potent and still rather sweet. I did cold crash one month after pitching.

CvilleKevin · Sep 10, 2012

Yeah, its hard to go wrong with Notty. Or if you can find Gervins Ale yeast, its the exact same yeast for a third the price.

CvilleKevin · Sep 14, 2012

I picked up the first juice of the 2012 Season today. Its a mix of Cortland, Grimes Golden, Empire, Gala, Rambo and Jonathan. Its a similar mix to the first pressing of last season. The mouthfeel is not quite as good as what I remembered from last year, but it has the same great aroma, flavor and finish. Sg was 1.054. Unpasteurized, no kmeta, pitched with the following tried and true combos:

(2) Brupaks yeast with half pound of corn sugar and a pound of light turbinado per 6 gallon carboy, to bump the OG to about 1.064
(1) Brupaks yeast with no sugar
(1) Gervins English Ale yeast (AKA Notty) with half pound of corn sugar and a pound of light turbinado
(1) WLP041 with half pound of corn sugar and a pound of light turbinado
(1) Wy3056 with half pound of corn sugar and a pound of light turbinado
(1) Wy3068 with half pound of corn sugar and a pound of light turbinado
(1) Wy3333 with 2.5 lbs of Orange blossom honey

Usually I add sugar to all my first pressing batches because it makes them easier to crash consistently, and stay crashed at room temp if SG is around 1.065. Now that I have a larger fridge, I did one batch of Brupaks with no sugar. I plan to just crash that one and keep it on tap so I dont have to worry about whether it stays stable at room temp.

The Wheat yeasts and WLP041 get blowoff tubes, with carboys filled to 5.5 gal
The ale yeasts use a regular bubbler with carboys filled to 5.75 gal.

One of the handy thing about using better bottles for primaries, is that if you add sugar or honey (which I usually do for early season apples), you can just pour the sugar or honey straight into the carboy, use a #10 gum stopper, and roll them all together on the floor for about 10 min to get however many carboys you have thoroughly dissolved and mixed without a lot of effort

CvilleKevin · Sep 21, 2012

Seven days later and I just crashed the first batch - the Brupaks with no sugar, at 1.011

The first batches of the season always go fast, although the weather has been relatively cool for this time of year. Temps in the basement have ranged from 62 to 70 over the past week, mostly around 64-66. Good thing for the brew balls, or otherwise I would not have checked these until tomorrow, by which time this first batch would likely be completely dry

misterme79 · Sep 22, 2012

CvilleKevin, I appreciate all of the hard work replying to us newbees trying our hand at cider. I have been brewing for years, but never tried cider. On a whim, I picked up 2 gallons of pasteurized cider from a local orchard with the intention of trying. I have decided to use light brown sugar and s-05 yeast based off of your generous descriptions on this thread. My questions are 1) Should I transfer to my old Mr. Beer fermenter or keep in the plastic jugs they are in? I have airlocks, but not a way to attach to the tops of the gallons. 2) Most of the information is based on larger batches. What proportions of sugar and yeast should I use to not OD on either? And what temp should I ferment at? 3) I can cold crash easily with only 2 gallons so as I bottle, how much priming sugar should be added and what kind? I am also thinking of leaving half to make warm cider to try and don't need to carbonate. What is the best way to store it? It will not be saved long and I don't need long term storage. I would greatly appreciate any advice you might have! Thanks.

CvilleKevin · Sep 22, 2012

misterme79 (and anyone else thinging about doing gallon batches) -
1) IMHO the easiest thing is to procure a 3rd gallon jug plastic jug and drink whatever is in it over the next few days and use that to crash the two gallons in succession. Get #6 1/2 rubber stoppers to hold the airlocks
2) Use enough sugar to bring the SG up to 1.060 - 1.065. If you dont have a hydrometer, 4oz/gallon is usually about average for early season apples. You can experiment with the sugar since you have 2 gal.
2b) You can split a regular pack of yeast in 2 gallons. To get the best rehydration, pour it in a little at a time and let it sit on the surface of the cider and sink before pouring in more
2b) Ferment at as low temp as you can, ideally 60-65F ambient. Above 70F and it is more likely get stinky and ferment out very quickly.
3)There is no need to add priming sugar when cold crashing. When you cold crash the cider, one of two things will happen:
a) You will successfully remove enough of the yeast and nutrients to prevent a re-ferment. In this case adding priming sugar doesnt do anything but raise the sweetness. You have to use a CO2 tank or cartridge to carb
b) You dont get all of the yeast, either intentionally or not, in which case a ferment will slowly start back and carb the bottles. In that case, you bottle the cider just a little sweeter than you want it to be when you drink it. Just make sure that you fully stop it, either by chilling or pasteurizing before it goes down more than a couple points.

CvilleKevin · Sep 23, 2012

I kegged the batch with Brupaks and no sugar today. Its carbing up now. Its a little raw, but very appley and great finish.

Also crashed 5 other batches - 9 days after pressing / pitching yeast

The two Brupaks batches with sugar, crashed at 1.010 and 1.011, both taste great
Gervins English Ale yeast with sugar, crashed at 1.010 is smoother than the Brupaks with a little less apple
Wy3056 with sugar, crashed at 1.013, smoothier and juicier than the ale yeasts, will probably be next to tap
Wy3068 with sugar, crashed at 1.012. Tastes good, although I should have stopped it earlier

Two batches are still fermenting:
WLP041 with sugar at 1.022, tastes really good, SWMBO likes, and if I had more space in the fridge I would have crashed this one also.
Wy3333 with Orange blossom honey at 1.030, still a little sweet for me but SWMBO likes, will let go to 1.020 or so then crash.

SkiNuke · Sep 27, 2012

I have been reading many of the posts, and would love to get your insight. I am hosting an apple pressing party and will be fermenting cider for people and want to get it right.
My plan is:
1) Press the apples
2) Sulfite the resulting juice
3) Wait 12-24 hours
4) Ferment with Nottingham Ale yeast
5) Finish the cider (either make it sweet or leave it dry)
6) Keg/Bottle

My Questions:
2) With regards to sulfiting, is waiting 12-24 hours good enough for ale yeast, do they actually have enough resistance to sulfites? And from your experience, how much should I use to make sure i kill any nasties?
5) I have been toying with some ideas, but unfortunately don't have enough time to experiment. One issue I might be facing is tied to lack of space for crash cooling and too many batches, so that might make trying to halt fermentation difficult. However, I was thinking of letting it ferment out to completion, and then back-sweetening either with sugar or with some of the fresh cider we will be pressing. I was wondering what you would suggest: leaving it dry, attempting to halt fermentation, back sweetening with sugar, or back sweetening with juice. (And if I do back-sweeten, how would I go about doing it?)

Any answers, hints, or suggestions on things I have or have not mentioned would be greatly appreciated.

CvilleKevin · Sep 28, 2012

SkiNuke
2) If you sulfite, I'd recommend using half the recommended dosage (dosages listed are typically for wine grapes) and let sit for 24 hours. My experience is that ale yeast is less tolerant of sulfites than wine and champagne yeasts. I stopped using sulfites several years ago. IMHO the cider will taste a lot better without it, and unless you are planning to save it for over 6 months you dont need the preservative effects. Just make sure you do a good job of washing the apples and sanitizing your press and the ale yeast will take care of the rest.
3) You will get more apple taste if you stop the ferment before it dries out. As with beer, there are complex sugars in apple juice which give it a lot of flavor and the yeast will generally get these last. But unlike beer, the yeast WILL eventually get these sugars if you let it. So there is a lot of flavor between 1.005 and 1.000 that you wont get back. All you can add back is sweetness and some body with sugar. As far as what to use for back sweetening, it depends on how it tastes when the juice ferments out. If its dry and mostly flavorless, using the original juice usually works well. If its overly acidic (often the case) you can let it sit for a year and it will mellow (which is what I usually do when I overshoot the ferment on a batch) or you can add stevia, which is an alkaline sweetener. If it tastes good but lacks body, regular sugar works well, if it is a little harsh up front but has a decent finish, agave is good. Best thing is to catch it before the original apple sugar ferments off and avoid the problem. Failing that, try some different sweeteners to see what works best.

CvilleKevin · Sep 29, 2012

Fifteen days after pressing, two batches are in kegs, four have been crashed and two are in the process of crashing.

The Wy3056 and first Brupacks batches are in kegs. The Wy3056 is my favorite, crashed at 1.013. The Brupaks batch is good and has a ton of apple but could probably use another few weeks to smooth out

The two Brupaks batches with sugar finished crashing a few days ago. The GEA (Notty) and 3068 batches finished crashing last night (you can see the condensation on the carboys because they were still cold from the post-crash rack). Of these, I like the GEA the best, it might be next to go on tap. It doesnt have quite as much apple flavor as the Brupaks batches, but is noticeably smoother and very drinkable right now.

I crashed WLP041 a few days ago and Wy3333 last night, both at 1.012, which was lower than what I wanted to go on these. I meant to hit 1.020 on these but temps got hot and time was short at the end of the week. They both taste great to me but are not sweet enough for SWMBO. So I will have to try again with another pressing in a few weeks.

highgravitybacon · Sep 30, 2012

I used 3 gallons of organic apple cider from Aldis. Added a half pound of wheat DME and a half pound of Crystal 60. Started at 1.056. Fermented at 68F with Safbrew S-33. 1.008 72 hours later. 82% attenuation for the S-33 in record time. Nuts. The sample I pulled was quite tart with a sharp apple flavor and slight sweetness. This, like many other men I know, is in theory intended for my wife to drink since she hates all things beer and wine.

Ultra ghetto cheap too. $2 for yeast. $15 for the juice, $4 for the DME and crystal. $7 a gallon for cider.

I back sweetened slighty despite being 72 hours young, and then bottled, let sit for 18 hours and then pasteurized. Totally drinkable at the 72 hour mark and that's no joke. However, quite hazy. I should have cold crashed then backsweetned then bottled. But that's for next time. I just saw all the ciders and went Oh, daddy likes!

jdavisesq · Oct 2, 2012

CVilleKevin Question - I like the concept of reaching desired FG, racking off yeast to secondary and cold crashing, then after crashing racking into third as a method to try to stop fermentation. What is the recommended temperature to cold crash? I'm running a fermentation chamber that only gets down to 45F so I'm wondering if that is enough of a shock to have a chance of making this method work.

CvilleKevin · Oct 3, 2012

What is the recommended temperature to cold crash? I'm running a fermentation chamber that only gets down to 45F so I'm wondering if that is enough of a shock to have a chance of making this method work.

jdavisesg - I'd advise getting the temps as cold as you can, the better to shock the yeast. I have my fridge set at 32F. Up until last year I didnt have very good temp control on my fridge and it could get up to 40F, so you are probably good at 45, but I've never tried to do it at this temp. If you can only get to 45F, I'd suggest using Notty, as it floccs consistently. If the crash doesnt take the first time, you can always do it again.

I've been crashing for quite a while, and while I've improved my process a lot, I still have to recrash batches sometimes to keep them stable. Last year I had to re-crash 6 out of 39 batches to get them to stop completely, so batting about 85 percent on the first try, which I hope to improve this year. Based on the batches that I had to crash twice last year, there are a couple other things that I believe are good to keep in mind when crashing:
(1) Make sure the temps drop as quickly as possible, so that the yeast get a quick shock. If you are doing several batches, try to time them so that you can crash them one or two at a time. Ideally you want to get down to terminal temp in a few hours. I can fit up to 8 carboys in my fridge, but I found that if I crash more than 2 or 3 at a time, it will take much longer for the temps to drop and this seems to increase likelihood of a restart after the crash. Having some kegs in the fridge that are already cold helps the temp drop faster, as does blowing a fan on the back of the fridge to get more air on the cooling coils when it is working hard.
(2) Dont leave the carboys in the fridge crashing for too long. I havent noticed any improvement in clarity / sediment drop after 2 days. I will sometimes let them stay in the fridge for up to a week, simply because its easier to deal with them on the weekend. Last year I was feeling lazy at the end of the season and left 4 carboys in the fridge for a month, two of which started back up after a few weeks at room temp. I suspect that what happens is that after the yeast floc, if it sits too long, some of them will eventually migrate back up into the juice where they can be activated if the temps warm back up.

seanomac · Oct 5, 2012

I'm trying 2 gallon batches of hard cider this fall. I have 1 gallon of sweet cider from a local orchard (pasteurized, but no preservatives). No idea what the apple make-up is, but assume it's sweet. I'll have a taste tonight before I start. I'm also planning to pick up 1 gallon of cider from my hobby shop that says it's a blend specifically for hard cider. I assume this means it has some tart apples mixed in. I also assume it's pasteurized since only orchards can sell the live stuff around here.

I'm making both gallons with the Nottingham yeast to compare the difference in juice. My previous attempt at cider used a champagne yeast and it came out way too dry for my taste. The wife likes somewhat sweet cider (Woodchuck, etc). I'm thinking about racking once it hits 1.020 or slightly lower, I guess I'll let taste determine that. If I cold crash after this and rack again, I assume I'll end up with a sweeter hard cider, but flat. If I wanted to give some fizz (I don't have kegs), how would I do this? If I just bottle when I'm at 1.020, I think I'll have bombs. If I bottle lower, I'm thinking it might be too dry. Thoughts?

Also, the hobby shop handed me their recipe which calls for tannin, pectic enzyme, acid blend, ascorbic acid, etc. Necessary? Ever tried this?

cwi · Oct 5, 2012

seanomac said:
I'm trying 2 gallon batches of hard cider this fall. I have 1 gallon of sweet cider from a local orchard (pasteurized, but no preservatives). No idea what the apple make-up is, but assume it's sweet. I'll have a taste tonight before I start. I'm also planning to pick up 1 gallon of cider from my hobby shop that says it's a blend specifically for hard cider. I assume this means it has some tart apples mixed in. I also assume it's pasteurized since only orchards can sell the live stuff around here.

I'm making both gallons with the Nottingham yeast to compare the difference in juice. My previous attempt at cider used a champagne yeast and it came out way too dry for my taste. The wife likes somewhat sweet cider (Woodchuck, etc). I'm thinking about racking once it hits 1.020 or slightly lower, I guess I'll let taste determine that. If I cold crash after this and rack again, I assume I'll end up with a sweeter hard cider, but flat. If I wanted to give some fizz (I don't have kegs), how would I do this? If I just bottle when I'm at 1.020, I think I'll have bombs. If I bottle lower, I'm thinking it might be too dry. Thoughts?

Also, the hobby shop handed me their recipe which calls for tannin, pectic enzyme, acid blend, ascorbic acid, etc. Necessary? Ever tried this?

I wouldn't bother with any additives, especially since you say want to see what the different juices taste like as hard cider. If the tart/bitter juice is actually tart/bitter, it will give you a good idea of what you, and more importantly she, likes when compared to the sweet juice. However, if you are sure you like a tart and/or bitter hard cider, adding some acid or tannin will make up for what sweet juice lacks.

You aren't doing much cider so sampling, even for OG, is going to cost you, unless you are using a refractometer. A refractometer makes SG check samples much smaller (only a few drops), though later readings have to be adjusted for alcohol. I would just pull small taste samples/sips, after day 4 or so, and stop it when it hits the right sweetness. Don't forget to keep temps under control. Low 60s (actual cider temp) is good, and a water bath is an easy method to acheive it.

As for bottling/carbing, if you plan on drinking it fairly quickly, just use 1 liter PET soda bottles. Add the proper amount of sugar, then refrigerate after they become 'soda hard'. They should be safe in the fridge for a few months. PET bottles can handle at least 60 psi, which is higher than your cider should reach at fridge temps even if it fermented out somehow.

gcastrat · Oct 6, 2012

CvilleKevin said:
jdavisesg - I'd advise getting the temps as cold as you can, the better to shock the yeast. I have my fridge set at 32F. Up until last year I didnt have very good temp control on my fridge and it could get up to 40F, so you are probably good at 45, but I've never tried to do it at this temp. If you can only get to 45F, I'd suggest using Notty, as it floccs consistently. If the crash doesnt take the first time, you can always do it again.

I've been crashing for quite a while, and while I've improved my process a lot, I still have to recrash batches sometimes to keep them stable. Last year I had to re-crash 6 out of 39 batches to get them to stop completely, so batting about 85 percent on the first try, which I hope to improve this year. Based on the batches that I had to crash twice last year, there are a couple other things that I believe are good to keep in mind when crashing:
(1) Make sure the temps drop as quickly as possible, so that the yeast get a quick shock. If you are doing several batches, try to time them so that you can crash them one or two at a time. Ideally you want to get down to terminal temp in a few hours. I can fit up to 8 carboys in my fridge, but I found that if I crash more than 2 or 3 at a time, it will take much longer for the temps to drop and this seems to increase likelihood of a restart after the crash. Having some kegs in the fridge that are already cold helps the temp drop faster, as does blowing a fan on the back of the fridge to get more air on the cooling coils when it is working hard.
(2) Dont leave the carboys in the fridge crashing for too long. I havent noticed any improvement in clarity / sediment drop after 2 days. I will sometimes let them stay in the fridge for up to a week, simply because its easier to deal with them on the weekend. Last year I was feeling lazy at the end of the season and left 4 carboys in the fridge for a month, two of which started back up after a few weeks at room temp. I suspect that what happens is that after the yeast floc, if it sits too long, some of them will eventually migrate back up into the juice where they can be activated if the temps warm back up.

Since you are running these experiments, is it possible to determine the difference in taste between cold crashing at precisely the right FG.. versus back sweetening to that FG using the original juice? I think a lot of us are wondering if back sweetening is preferable versus finding the right day to cold crash.

Also I think the dryness experiment may be somewhat limited by precisely when you are drinking the cider. A dry cider (or cyser) becomes a whole lot better after 1+ years, so let's compare apples to apples (ha!)
:mug:

Quixote18 · Oct 6, 2012

WOW! Thanks for all the great info! I've poured over it for a few hours and hope I've absorbed a little of it. I'd like to share what I'm doing right now and ask for any suggestions. I bought 5 gallons of freshly pressed, unpasturized cider from the nearest orchard (about 90 minutes from me). The cider tasted good, although I would rather it have a little more tartness. The guy running the show at the time did not know what apples were used. My options were limitied, so I took what I could get. Once at home I added 3 lbs of orange blossum honey to bring the gravity up to 1.065. I then pitched my Safale 05 and had good fermentation in 12 hours. Since I live in a smallish house with no basement or garage, my only real option was sitting the carboy on the kitchen counter covered with my lucky U2 concert shirt! The house temp stays about 70-75 degrees, which I know is a bit warmer than optimum...but the family won't permit me to chill the whole house down. After exactly 7 days (today) the gravity has dropped to 1.038 and tasted ok but a bit thin. Since I have no place to cold crash it (save for maybe an outdoor ice bath) my plan is to use sorbate and sulfite it at around 1.02 since I'd like to keep it a little sweeter. I'm wondering if I could use my home juice extractor to get some nice tart flavor from some winesaps after fermentation and then add the preservatives to prevent bottle bombs. The extractor isn't efficient enough to get a large volume of juice, but maybe enough to add some extra body and flavor? This is my second attempt at cider, and my first try several years ago was dismal. Lessons learned and research done, I'm trying again! Any suggestions or reassurance would be helpful!

Results from juice, yeast and sugar experiments

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