Will this cheap 3500 watt induction burner work?

AnOldUR · Aug 6, 2014

humann_brewing said:
Do they make induction burners big enough to hold a 15g kettle that is about 15 inches wide. Would also need to be more powerful, like 5500w

I believe that diameter to height ratio is one of the keys to making the 3500 watt work with a 15 gallon pot. That's probably what's giving IslandLizard a problem. My Bayou Classic 62 quart pot is 15-1/2" inside diameter x 18" high. It takes me about 30 minutes to get to a boil with the lid on from the time the lauter is complete (plus or minus depending on mash temperature and lauter time.) Once at a boil it's plenty vigorous with the lid completely removed. I get more than 1-1/4 gallons of boil off per hour with a 12-13 gallon boil.

. . . posted earlier in this thread

206562d1403190739-induction-cooktops-induction-boil-5.jpg

humann_brewing · Aug 6, 2014

tbelczak said:
My 20-gallon pot is 17.25 inches wide and works fine on this cooktop.

http://johnsonrose.com/product.php?item=47802

I do leave the lid partially on for a more vigorous boil, but removed it for this clip. I boiled off 2.8 gallons in 90 minutes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQ7-h0D69wo

That is promissing, but that is a pretty spendy pot, what is the best bang for your buck for a ~15g kettle that is induction ready?

AnOldUR said:
I believe that diameter to height ratio is one of the keys to making the 3500 watt work with a 15 gallon pot. That's probably what's giving IslandLizard a problem. My Bayou Classic 62 quart pot is 15-1/2" inside diameter x 18" high. It takes me about 30 minutes to get to a boil with the lid on from the time the lauter is complete (plus or minus depending on mash temperature and lauter time.) Once at a boil it's plenty vigorous with the lid completely removed. I get more than 1-1/4 gallons of boil off per hour with a 12-13 gallon boil.

. . . posted earlier in this thread

That is nice, does that pot advertise that it is induction ready or how do you determine that?

Also what are you using to wrap it?

humann_brewing · Aug 6, 2014

Also, what Kind of power do these require. I am going to be putting in a 50 AMP outlet but I would then need to make a box so I can plug 2 of these in and run at the same time as I want to double batch the brew days.

Do these have GFCI built in or would I need a spa plug?

IslandLizard · Aug 6, 2014

tbelczak said:
My 20-gallon pot is 17.25 inches wide and works fine on this cooktop.

http://johnsonrose.com/product.php?item=47802

I do leave the lid partially on for a more vigorous boil, but removed it for this clip. I boiled off 2.8 gallons in 90 minutes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQ7-h0D69wo

That's the kinda boil I was experiencing with the lid off. I don't call that vigorous and definitely not enough. Did you check the temperature of the wort around the perimeter, mine was a few degrees below 212, like 209 something, with the lid off.

I must have boiled off a little less than 2 gallons in 90 minutes, with the lid partially on. I hit the gravity pretty much on the nose, .001 high.

IslandLizard · Aug 6, 2014

humann_brewing said:
Also, what Kind of power do these require. I am going to be putting in a 50 AMP outlet but I would then need to make a box so I can plug 2 of these in and run at the same time as I want to double batch the brew days.

Do these have GFCI built in or would I need a spa plug?

I know this thread has 480 some posts in it, and it looks like a daunting task to read, but all your questions have been answered here before. Use advanced search in the thread for "GFCI" or "spa" and see what rolls out. You can learn a lot by spending a few hours skimming the whole thread and read the areas you're mostly interested in. May give you some new ideas too.

In short, a 240V 20A circuit is needed for each IC3500. GFCI is not needed if used as a plug-in, stand-alone device, as it was intended to be used. It consumes around 15 Amps at full power, depending on your actual AC voltage.

Double batch as in 2x 10-11 gallons?

brettwasbtd · Aug 6, 2014

IslandLizard said:
That's the kinda boil I was experiencing with the lid off. I don't call that vigorous and definitely not enough. Did you check the temperature of the wort around the perimeter, mine was a few degrees below 212, like 209 something, with the lid off.

I must have boiled off a little less than 2 gallons in 90 minutes, with the lid partially on. I hit the gravity pretty much on the nose, .001 high.

Maybe not vigorous, but def a solid rolling boil. This is about where I like to be on my boils. Haven't noticed a difference in my beers compared to a stronger boil. My $.02

humann_brewing · Aug 6, 2014

IslandLizard said:
I know this thread has 480 some posts in it, and it looks like a daunting task to read, but all your questions have been answered here before. Use advanced search in the thread for "GFCI" or "spa" and see what rolls out. You can learn a lot by spending a few hours skimming the whole thread and read the areas you're mostly interested in. May give you some new ideas too.

In short, a 240V 20A circuit is needed for each IC3500. GFCI is not needed if used as a plug-in, stand-alone device, as it was intended to be used. It consumes around 15 Amps at full power, depending on your actual AC voltage.

Double batch as in 2x 10-11 gallons?

Thanks and yes, 2 x burners, 1 pot on each, either brew in a bag or just 2 vessels and transfer with buckets during sparges.

I was wanting to go electric but looks very daunting and expensive. This seems like a relatively inexpensive and easy to do option and if it works that is great.

If it could be at a boil in about 15 minutes from topping of from the sparge that would be nice. Helping that my cranking it up after the sparge has started.

I am just in search for a kettle that I know is magnetic and could maximize the power.

IslandLizard · Aug 6, 2014

humann_brewing said:
Thanks and yes, 2 x burners, 1 pot on each, either brew in a bag or just 2 vessels and transfer with buckets during sparges.

I was wanting to go electric but looks very daunting and expensive. This seems like a relatively inexpensive and easy to do option and if it works that is great.

If it could be at a boil in about 15 minutes from topping of from the sparge that would be nice. Helping that my cranking it up after the sparge has started.

I am just in search for a kettle that I know is magnetic and could maximize the power.

Electric can be straightforward as an on/off switch or as automated and controlled as one can make it. But drilling holes in a kettle and potting an element safely can be intimidating. The induction plates are very universal, and easy to use with their self-contained power regulators.

I always start the boil during sparging to save time and when doing 5.5-6 gallon batches the wort heats faster than the sparge finishes. With 10-11 gallons (13-14 gallons pre-boil) they're on par, or the sparge finishes a bit before the wort comes to a boil. 2 plates give you a lot of freedom, and you can heat 2 kettles at the same time continuously. :rockin:

For $400 plus the right kettles you're set. Definitely read this thread.

The taller, narrower kettle seem to have a better efficiency on the plates than the wider shorter ones. The koozy jacket is a good insulator, better than reflectix or large bubblewrap for some reason.

Tri-ply bottoms give more even heat distribution, preventing scorching, but you lose some efficiency in the mass. Single bottom kettles may warp from the strong induction currents and heat generated. There is a link in the last 100 posts to an specialized induction equipment reporting link here on HBT.

etruha · Aug 7, 2014

Awesome. So it looks like the Bayou Classic 62 quart pot and 10g patches is the way to go. It unfortunately looks like the Keg Koozy is still having supply issues.

I know some people talked about building their own neoprene sleeve. Did anyone end of taking the project on?

http://www.rockywoods.com/Fabrics-Kits/Neoprene_Fabrics

humann_brewing · Aug 7, 2014

So from the sounds of it, a person is really after the tri ply that has an aluminum center for magnetivity like this that has a 3.5mm aluminum center on the bottom

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B007Y5B2OM/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

or

http://www.bayouclassicshop.com/bay-1316.html#.U-PKEuNdVv0

Is that right?

I have also read that less iron and more of another element make the connection better.

sumbrewindude · Aug 7, 2014

Aluminum is not ferrous - not magnetic - and doesn't work at all with induction.

The more ferrous material you have it the pot, the better. That's what will react to the eddy currents and make the heat.

The rational behind having the tri-clad pots is that the aluminum works like a large heat plate to distribute the heat evenly across the base instead of focusing the heat around the induction element.

There've been some interesting arguments both ways as to which is actually better for heating the liquid - I subscribe to the idea that you want a thinner pot over the tri-clad as I'm not interested in heating an aluminum disc, but the liquid in the pot.

If I was cooking something other than a large volume of liquid, I'd go tri-clad. For wort, my Concord rocks.

humann_brewing · Aug 7, 2014

sumbrewindude said:
Aluminum is not ferrous - not magnetic - and doesn't work at all with induction.

The more ferrous material you have it the pot, the better. That's what will react to the eddy currents and make the heat.

The rational behind having the tri-clad pots is that the aluminum works like a large heat plate to distribute the heat evenly across the base instead of focusing the heat around the induction element.

There've been some interesting arguments both ways as to which is actually better for heating the liquid - I subscribe to the idea that you want a thinner pot over the tri-clad as I'm not interested in heating an aluminum disc, but the liquid in the pot.

If I was cooking something other than a large volume of liquid, I'd go tri-clad. For wort, my Concord rocks.

ahh hah, thank you for the explanation, I guess the real question is how do you find out what material besides stainless comprises these pots and in what percentages to find out how much ferrous material is in them.

So do you have this pot?
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0085ZODVO/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

sumbrewindude · Aug 7, 2014

If you can find out what kind of stainless they made the pot from, you can cross reference it back to see how much iron it has in it. Not everyone will tell you what kind of steel is in their pots, though - and even then depending on how the pot was made can effect whether or not it's picked up traits that will make it induction capable.

Case in point, Concord doesn't say that it's pots are induction capable (wrong kind of stainless), nor does a magnet stick to the bottom of my pot. It does however work quite well on my induction plate. There are folks that say the same thing about the Bayou Classic pots. Only the tri-clad pots will get the official thumbs up from most manufacturers.

humann_brewing · Aug 7, 2014

sumbrewindude said:
If you can find out what kind of stainless they made the pot from, you can cross reference it back to see how much iron it has in it. Not everyone will tell you what kind of steel is in their pots, though - and even then depending on how the pot was made can effect whether or not it's picked up traits that will make it induction capable.

Case in point, Concord doesn't say that it's pots are induction capable (wrong kind of stainless), nor does a magnet stick to the bottom of my pot. It does however work quite well on my induction plate. There are folks that say the same thing about the Bayou Classic pots. Only the tri-clad pots will get the official thumbs up from most manufacturers.

the concord is about an inch wider than the bayou according to an Amazon answered question and I've read that people have better experiences with skinnier and taller options but you say you have no troubles. How fast are you bringing say 12g to a boil from 150 ish?

sumbrewindude · Aug 7, 2014

I'm not boiling 12gal. I'm scaled down, so Concord actually makes the tallest/skinniest pot for that size (stainless turkey frier pot).

If you're looking at a 15gal pot, Bayou get's the nod outside of Northern Brewer's Tallboy pots.

In reality, the difference in boil off between a 16" diameter vs a 15" diameter pot will be pretty minimal. Now a 20" vs a 15" will be larger - but for the former you're not looking at much at all.

The single largest factor I've found in helping the boil is the amount of insulation on the pot itself. Getting that thermal mass to temp quickly and holding it there is key. If your pot is insulated sufficently and can hold that heat, your temps will climb fast and stay stable. If you're loosing heat through the sides of the pot, it'll take forever to get everything at temp and rolling.

I firmly believe that the reason UR's able to get his boil times and amounts is due to the insulation and the pot size he's using. Withouth the neoprene sleeve, I'd expect the times to change pretty drastically.

IslandLizard · Aug 7, 2014

brettwasbtd said:
Maybe not vigorous, but def a solid rolling boil. This is about where I like to be on my boils. Haven't noticed a difference in my beers compared to a stronger boil. My $.02

Sorry, but that video does not show a solid rolling boil.

A little lifting or rumble in the middle is not necessarily a sign of the whole pot boiling. One of my first physics classes at the Atheneum in Amsterdam, 45 years back, was to study heating water in a glass beaker until it boiled for 10 minutes. Explaining all the events I witnessed of such a seemingly simple process was mind boggling for my 13 year young mind... but it left a lasting impression.

Only accurate temperature measurements in several (critical) locations in such a a sizable vat can confirm the whole volume is at or near boiling temperature.

brettwasbtd · Aug 8, 2014

IslandLizard said:
Sorry, but that video does not show a solid rolling boil.

A little lifting or rumble in the middle is not necessarily a sign of the whole pot boiling. One of my first physics classes at the Atheneum in Amsterdam, 45 years back, was to study heating water in a glass beaker until it boiled for 10 minutes. Explaining all the events I witnessed of such a seemingly simple process was mind boggling for my 13 year young mind... but it left a lasting impression.

Only accurate temperature measurements in several (critical) locations in such a a sizable vat can confirm the whole volume is at or near boiling temperature.

Thanks for pointing this out, you are correct. For some reason I have been incorrectly associating wort turnover as "rolling boil." After doing a little research it appears rolling might as well be synonymous with violent when it comes to boiling.

Regardless, my point was that the boil shown in the video should not be an issue in the finished product. Hops will be isomerized. From googling it looks like protein break and coagulation could be impaired, but use of a clarifying agent should negate that. If the poster wants to be able to make a certain volume of beer and can only achieve this type of boil at that volume I don't think it's a problem

humann_brewing · Aug 14, 2014

sumbrewindude said:
I'm not boiling 12gal. I'm scaled down, so Concord actually makes the tallest/skinniest pot for that size (stainless turkey frier pot).

If you're looking at a 15gal pot, Bayou get's the nod outside of Northern Brewer's Tallboy pots.

In reality, the difference in boil off between a 16" diameter vs a 15" diameter pot will be pretty minimal. Now a 20" vs a 15" will be larger - but for the former you're not looking at much at all.

The single largest factor I've found in helping the boil is the amount of insulation on the pot itself. Getting that thermal mass to temp quickly and holding it there is key. If your pot is insulated sufficently and can hold that heat, your temps will climb fast and stay stable. If you're loosing heat through the sides of the pot, it'll take forever to get everything at temp and rolling.

I firmly believe that the reason UR's able to get his boil times and amounts is due to the insulation and the pot size he's using. Withouth the neoprene sleeve, I'd expect the times to change pretty drastically.

So what makes the NB tall boy pots get the nod for this induction burner? It is a triclad, 4mm thick.

sumbrewindude · Aug 14, 2014

It's cheaper than the Megapot, same dimensions as the Megapot, and a triclad for less money.

Win, win, win in my book for an off the shelf tall induction pot.

humann_brewing · Aug 14, 2014

sumbrewindude said:
It's cheaper than the Megapot, same dimensions as the Megapot, and a triclad for less money.

Win, win, win in my book for an off the shelf tall induction pot.

would the megapot be worse for induction as I think it is thicker right?

edit, they both say 4mm thick, so what is the difference?

Also, the bayou comes in 20 gauge or less than a mm thick, so these tallboys are more than 4 times as thick? Is that right?

So I guess the question is thicker better for the induction burner?

fbold1 · Aug 14, 2014

Yes, thicker is better for induction, there is more mass for the magnetic field, thus a better coupling with the brewpot.

sumbrewindude · Aug 14, 2014

The thickness you're seeing listed is the bottom thickness, not the wall thickness - the Megapot is relatively thick at the wall vs the Tallboy. The Bayou is thinner yet, but not too much less than the TallBoy. You need to decide if the thicker bottom is important to you - lots of folks on here have them, and other have the thinner pots like a Bayou - there's no real wrong answer.

I believe in this post there's also pot/volume boil times from different companies with the IC3500, that might give you an idea of what you're looking at.

AnOldUR · Aug 15, 2014

fbold1 said:
Yes, thicker is better for induction, there is more mass for the magnetic field, thus a better coupling with the brewpot.

From my understanding a thin bottomed pot will actually heat faster and more intensely with induction. Not so good when youre frying an egg or heat a thick liquid. Thats why a thick or clad bottom is what is recommended for cooking. It distributes the heat, but loses some efficiency in the process. Thats not the case when you're boiling water or a thin liquid like wort. The rolling action of the boil distributes the heat throughout the liquid.

Here's the catch. If you shut off the burner after hot break is formed it will settle to the bottom of the kettle. Turn the burner back on and it will scorch, but as long as you maintain a rolling boil it works great. If your burner times out or gets shut off for some reason, stir well while returning to a boil.

(Yes, I learned this the hard way.

)

borealis · Aug 15, 2014

What gauge wire would you use to make an extension cord for this unit? I was thinking 10-3 soow but just wanted to make sure this wasn't overkill. My unit just came in the mail and the power cord doesn't seem that heavy duty.

AnOldUR · Aug 15, 2014

I moved my brew area across the room a while back, but haven't had the chance to put in a new outlet. I'm using a 20' 12-2 extension cord and it doesn't even get warm.

borealis · Aug 16, 2014

Thanks, AnOldUR. Would that answer change at all if I am plugging into a 30amp dryer outlet?

AnOldUR · Aug 16, 2014

borealis said:
Thanks, AnOldUR. Would that answer change at all if I am plugging into a 30amp dryer outlet?

Actually better, less voltage drop between the panel and the outlet.

humann_brewing · Aug 18, 2014

I know people have said that there is not a need for GFI if used directly to the receptacle but have people found a 240v 20 amp GFCI outlet to work with these units or how are you supplying GFCI capability?

humann_brewing · Aug 19, 2014

I ordered one to get it and test it out before I order another. Came in 1 day

I still need to wire for it

humann_brewing · Aug 25, 2014

So I'm in the club now, I go my burner and borrowed a Morebeer economy 14g kettle from a friend to test if it was conductive. Now I am trying to determine how well it worked, so yes, the burner turned on, the pot go very warm and the temps were going up. I tested with about 5g of water but it wasn't rising as much as I would have liked although I had no insulation on the kettle either. Based on the other thread https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/request-induction-equipment-information-465923/ I have seen times of like 40 minutes to go from 65 to boiling with about 45 minutes.

I was just playing around but started at 88, yeah, ground water is warm here it went up to 120ish pretty quick the leveled out and started to creep, I gave up and turned it off then started again, it went from 124 to 136 in 4 minutes, then to 144 in another 4 minutes so it was doing 2-3 degrees a minute un-insulated. Does this sound like this kettle is performing just as good as other kettles that people are using?

Will this cheap 3500 watt induction burner work?

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