Exploring "no chill" brewing

Dr_Deathweed · May 1, 2009

UPDATE: Helpful posts and FAQ's
Explanation of "no chill: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/exploring-no-chill-brewing-117111/#post1299451
Hopping schedule chart: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/exploring-no-chill-brewing-117111/index12.html#post1542375
Winpack link:http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=usplastic&category%5Fname=25&product%5Fid=13648
5 gal jerrican link (for long term storage):http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/pr...e=usplastic&category_name=25&product_id=14603

Original Post
I will be hitting a time crunch here in the next week an a half where I will not have time to brew for a couple months, however, I should be able to make time to rack/keg during this time. I do have a couple days off where I can brew before hand (which I fully plan on doing), but due to local temps and the finite amount of room in my fermentation chiller, I can only brew/ferment ~10 gallons at a time and maintain my quality standards. For these reasons I am looking into exploring no chill brewing.

The Plan: Brew 20-30 gallons next week. For this project I will plan to brew medium gravity, moderately hopped beers with fairly well modified grains (no pilsner) to be stored for a period of 6 weeks at the longest before pitching yeast. Chill and ferment 10 gallons like normal, but "no chill" and store the remaining 10-20 gallons to be fermented at 2-3 week intervals to keep the pipeline flowing.

Materials: I will purchase 2-4, 5 gallon HDPE water storage containers from walmart to store the "no chill" wort in.
Update: I went with the 5 gallon stackable jerricans in the link above. The wal-mart water storage containers have an air vent spigot which is not air tight so does not work for long term storage, thus does not meet my needs.

Potential issues:

-DMS: This issue has been discussed in other threads, but I will touch on it here. It has been claimed as a non-issue for "no chill" proponents, and a huge factor by the opposition. An extended boil of 90 minutes will remove the vast majority of DMS pre-cursors, with will help prevent formation of detectable levels during a slow cooling process. Now if we consider we frequently tell noobs to chill their wort w/in 30 minutes using the sink and ice method, you have a rough window of ~20 minutes to bring the wort below 180 deg to prevent any detectable DMS formation. This is roughly a 2 deg/minute heat loss over a surface area of 4-5 square feet (figuring a little less than a square foot per side of the container) with a temperature difference between wort and ambient of at least 100deg at the lowest temp of 180deg for the wort, and an ambient of 80deg. Now I am sure someone out there is willing to crunch the numbers on that, but from here it looks incredibly feasible and the formation of DMS would really be a non-issue.

-Spoilage: As above, I will be using a 90 minute boil which should kill just about everything, and add in a good sanitation of my containers with star-san, and allowing contact of all surfaces with boiling wort for ~10 minutes should reduce all chances of contamination.

-Botulism: Spores from C. botulinum can survive hours in boiling water and grow in room temperature substrates with a pH as low as 4.6, botulism is something we should be concerned with. Luckily we are dealing with wort here. According to some information in "Advances in Thermal and Non-thermal food preservation" By Gaurav Tewari, the synergistic action of low pH and boiling temperatures for extended times act to inactivate C. botulinum spores. Couple this with a U.S. Patent (#6251461) which claims "hop extract" as a preservative to prevent growth of C. botulinum spores. So I guess I will just have to hop my beers (at least three times

).

Conclusion: UPDATED 9/10/09
My no chill bitter is fantastic! I ended up waiting about 8 weeks between brewing and fermentation. Will try and post pictures when I next remember to do so. As is, I am calling this project a success and prod all nay-sayers to give this method a try!

TwoHeadsBrewing · May 1, 2009

I would fill the containers with CO2, so that there is no chance of any airborne yeasts or bacteria. The big problem I would worry about is the wort sitting for several weeks, so I would try to kill everything that may come in contact with the wort of fermentation vessel. Good luck, can't wait to see the results!

TeufelBrew · May 1, 2009

I'm interested in the Go Big or GTFO way you do science. Wimpy, nickel rubbing, penny pincher that I am, I'd go for the growler size worts and see how long they lasted.

If it works, AWESOME! I'm not sure I'd be confident in any sanitizing process lasting for more than a couple of days. I agree with 2heads about the CO2. If you can get good sanitation of equipment, go the next step and put a nice heavy CO2 blanket over the wort.

Hope you blow your best hopes and expectations out of the water!

rsmith179 · May 1, 2009

Oh man.. I wish you the best of luck with this. I'm not quite sure if it is more of a risk to do what you're thinking or simply pitch the yeast and cross your fingers when it comes to the fermentation temps. I think the most concerning thing for me would also be the botulism risks. Obviously mold and bacteria are also concerns, but those won't kill you. I think that they say hops help protect against bacteria somewhat, nothing works better than yeast. And still, botulism is a spore and would just love wort sitting around. Best of luck...

pen25 · May 1, 2009

you could add a small amount of dri ice and vent. that would get rid of the oxygen and create a seal.you wont need much just enough to offset the oxygen. when you want to ferment then aerate and pitch.

Daddymem · May 1, 2009

The cubes get cleaned and sanitized, then boiling wort goes in, there is no more chance of bacteria or yeast then dumping chilled wort into a fermentation vessel like you normally do. Companies sell wort done in a manner similar to this, why is it so shocking???

Bobby_M · May 1, 2009

I didn't catch the specific reason why you don't pitch into all the wort now.

TwoHeadsBrewing · May 1, 2009

what about adding some campden tabs to the wort, just to make sure ALL yeasts are killed? In much the same way as wine, this should kill everything and then just leave that container sealed until you want to ferment.

Edcculus · May 1, 2009

Brew a saison or belgian ale. That way, it can handle the higher than normal ale temps.

bob1852 · May 1, 2009

Bobby_M said:
I didn't catch the specific reason why you don't pitch into all the wort now.

he only has enough room in his fermentation chamber for 10-gallons at a time, and ambient temps are too warm for his liking...

Personally, I'd just buy a couple tub and fill with water and ice bottles....

HotbreakHotel · May 1, 2009

+1 on campden tablets or some other preservative. I believe that in even the most meticulously sanitized conditions the wort will begin to grow bugs after 4 days or so.

The Pol · May 1, 2009

I have been doing some "no chill" brewing and have not witnessed the "problems" that the nay sayers claim. Then again, I have not talked to a single nay sayer that has actually tried it. Go figure.

I have not stored my wort, but rather cooled over a 24 hour period while the RWS (real wort starter) gets churning, then pitch. Saves some time, saves water, uses less equipment etc.

Dr_Deathweed · May 2, 2009

pen25 said:
you could add a small amount of dri ice and vent. that would get rid of the oxygen and create a seal.you wont need much just enough to offset the oxygen. when you want to ferment then aerate and pitch.

Dry ice is not made in food safe conditions, and in many cases contains machine oils and other contaminants. Not a good choice for brewing.

Edcculus said:
Brew a saison or belgian ale. That way, it can handle the higher than normal ale temps.

Great idea, but this idea is being thrown around, especially in Australian boards, why not give it a try here?

HotbreakHotel said:
+1 on campden tablets or some other preservative. I believe that in even the most meticulously sanitized conditions the wort will begin to grow bugs after 4 days or so.

I believe adding something like campden tablets to the wort at this point would also inhibit future growth of the yeast that I pitch later and actually want to grow.

AZ_IPA said:
he only has enough room in his fermentation chamber for 10-gallons at a time, and ambient temps are too warm for his liking...

Personally, I'd just buy a couple tub and fill with water and ice bottles....

Yes, I only have capacity in my fermentation chiller for 2, 5-6 gallon carboys, and the ambient temps in the house during the day can reach 85-90deg even during this time of year since we are gone more than 12 hours out of the day and do not like running the AC during all that time.

I have done the "tub 'o ice water" fermentation cooling before, and while it works, why not try something new? I have the equipment, ingredients, and will to try, so why else not? I believe I addressed the major concerns above, but if there are any I have overlooked, please let me know so I can look at them before I try this out.

bob1852 · May 2, 2009

Pol - do you use campden tablets, or do you literally just kill the heat, cover and set aside for 24 hours?

pen25 · May 2, 2009

you can get dri ice that is food grade. one reason it is used in the fog making punch.

http://www.dryicedirectory.com/

brewt00l · May 2, 2009

deathweed said:
Now if we consider we frequently tell noobs to chill their wort w/in 30 minutes using the sink and ice method, you have a rough window of ~20 minutes to bring the wort below 180 deg to prevent any detectable DMS formation.

FWIW, 140 is typically the threshold temp I see specified for SMM to be hydrolyzed to DMS

I'd be interested to see your results with this method.

Yooper · May 2, 2009

deathweed said:
I believe adding something like campden tablets to the wort at this point would also inhibit future growth of the yeast that I pitch later and actually want to grow.

I have no idea how this would work, but I do know that sulfites (campden tablets) disapate with time. That's why wine makers re-add sulfites on a regular schedule. Either they use an so2 meter (expensive) to get around 50 ppm, or they guestimate by using a set amount, like 1 campden tablet per gallon at every other racking.

Wine yeast isn't particularly susceptible to sulfites, though. That's why it works pretty well. I'm not sure about ale yeast- I would think they can tolerate a bit of sulfite just as wine yeast do.

The Pol · May 2, 2009

AZ_IPA said:
Pol - do you use campden tablets, or do you literally just kill the heat, cover and set aside for 24 hours?

I drain the wort directly from the BK to the HDPE container at about 190F (10 minutes after the end of the boil) then seal it with the lid on.

I let it sit at 65F ambient for 24 hours

I then pitch my starter, made from wort from the actual beer I am making

No campden

No DMS

No Botulism

Works great

Lasts a long time

What is the point in using campden, or getting at all concerned with a 24 hour chill? I mean, some of my ferments in the past didnt start for up to 72 hours! And that wort was cooled in the open, transferred cool and placed in a container that was not sanitized with boiling hot wort. Eww, can you imagine the opportunity for infection in NORMAL chilling and brewing practices? No chill sounds MUCH more sanitary to me.

The Pol · May 2, 2009

brewt00l said:
FWIW, 140 is typically the threshold temp I see specified for SMM to be hydrolyzed to DMS

I'd be interested to see your results with this method.

Yeah, but unless you are using a lot of Pilsner malt and not boiling adequately, you wont have much SMM left.

I have always boiled for 90 minutes, since it is basically free to add 30 minutes to the boil. So going to "no chill" was easier, 90-100 minute boils leave extremely small ammounts of SMM in the wort, thusly, much less ability to produce DMS.

But like anything else, you have to try it. If any of us brewed the way that the "beer gods" said to back in the 1970's, can you imagine? Much has changed since then, much will change in the next 10-20 years.

LooyvilleLarry · May 2, 2009

I just read an article in BYO that discusses a similar question from the reader. The question was about how to split the brew day.

Basically, the answer involved rapidly chilling the wort, then maintaining it as close to 32* as possible.

This is different than Pols method, where he is pitching the yeast in a day. The OP wants to wait a week or more.

If this were a one time thing, perhaps you could pick up a deep freeze ( or rent one ).

As far as that goes, you could get some 6 gal HDPE and a Love Controller and use that with your new deep freeze and have 20 gal of beer ready in a couple of weeks.

The Pol · May 2, 2009

lrr81765 said:
I just read an article in BYO that discusses a similar question from the reader. The question was about how to split the brew day.

Basically, the answer involved rapidly chilling the wort, then maintaining it as close to 32* as possible.

This is different than Pols method, where he is pitching the yeast in a day. The OP wants to wait a week or more.

If this were a one time thing, perhaps you could pick up a deep freeze ( or rent one ).

As far as that goes, you could get some 6 gal HDPE and a Love Controller and use that with your new deep freeze and have 20 gal of beer ready in a couple of weeks.

If I were to "no chill" or otherwise STORE my beer for a long time. Id place it in 6 gallon HDPE containers and shove them in my ferment freezer at about 32F. Why? Why not. I would be worried bout storing them at ambient temp.... the Aussies wont even do that.

TeufelBrew · May 2, 2009

D-Weed, get those worts going.

Possibility for ruined batches, yeah. But it's experimentation based on some decent educated guesswork and a little incentive thrown in. Sanitize, seal and ferment as your system space allows. Doesn't look like you be out much if the later batches don't turn out well.

I like your willingness to try and the gumption to do it LARGE.

HomebrewJeff · May 2, 2009

deathweed said:
Chill and ferment 10 gallons like normal, but "no chill" and store the remaining 10-20 gallons to be fermented at 2-3 week intervals to keep the pipeline flowing.

Potential issues:

-Spoilage: As above, I will be using a 90 minute boil which should kill just about everything, and add in a good sanitation of my containers with star-san, and allowing contact of all surfaces with boiling wort for ~10 minutes should reduce all chances of contamination.

I as well wish you all the luck, and I predict that in a few weeks you will be telling us how you have 10-20 gallons of infected wort, that "appears" to be fermenting.

Wort is a perfect environment for bacteria to grow, and we need to keep in mind that we are not sterilizing, we are sanitizing at best. 24 hours is probably not a concern, because although there will still be bacteria and wild yeasts present, their numbers will be very low. Adding in a large, active starter will start producing alcohol and kill off / tame anything that may have started growing. 2-3 weeks later though, at warm temperatures? I dunno, personally I see that as a big risk. Just my $0.02 though.

Dr_Deathweed · May 2, 2009

YooperBrew said:
I have no idea how this would work, but I do know that sulfites (campden tablets) disapate with time. That's why wine makers re-add sulfites on a regular schedule. Either they use an so2 meter (expensive) to get around 50 ppm, or they guestimate by using a set amount, like 1 campden tablet per gallon at every other racking.

Wine yeast isn't particularly susceptible to sulfites, though. That's why it works pretty well. I'm not sure about ale yeast- I would think they can tolerate a bit of sulfite just as wine yeast do.

Thanks Yoop, I have personally never used campden and did not know that. I will keep that information packed away and may consider it for future attempts :mug:

The Pol said:
If I were to "no chill" or otherwise STORE my beer for a long time. Id place it in 6 gallon HDPE containers and shove them in my ferment freezer at about 32F. Why? Why not. I would be worried bout storing them at ambient temp.... the Aussies wont even do that.

Thanks as well Pol, I knew you have done this before without the extended storage phase and was glad to get your input in this thread. I agree, if I had the means I too would store in a cooler environment for the very same reason, why not? Low temperatures do not stop bacterial growth, but do inhibit it, which would extend any storage phase. I also have read (as I am sure you have) that the Aussies store with this method for months at a time. I don't have all the details on how they do this, which is why I am running with this project to see if I can sort out details. If this works, I will probably use it in the future to some small extent, but I don't think It will ever become my brewery "norm", but more of an occasional convenience factor.

HomebrewJeff said:
I as well wish you all the luck, and I predict that in a few weeks you will be telling us how you have 10-20 gallons of infected wort, that "appears" to be fermenting.

Wort is a perfect environment for bacteria to grow, and we need to keep in mind that we are not sterilizing, we are sanitizing at best. 24 hours is probably not a concern, because although there will still be bacteria and wild yeasts present, their numbers will be very low. Adding in a large, active starter will start producing alcohol and kill off / tame anything that may have started growing. 2-3 weeks later though, at warm temperatures? I dunno, personally I see that as a big risk. Just my $0.02 though.

Wort is not quite as perfect as you think for bacterial growth. Low pH, high osmotic potential with dissolved sugars, various hop compounds that inhibit bacterial growth... I am not saying that it NEVER happens, we all know that it can and does, but it usually occurs with only a handful of species, none of which are harmful to man. My main concern was with botulism, but as I addressed above the combination of long boil with low pH should have me in the safe zone for even that little bug from the info I have found already. I will be looking up some more research to see If I can find a paper or three on low pressure thermal inactivation of clostridial spores in low pH environments.

This method is not too terribly unlike open canning which is used with acidic foods like tomatoes. While I will only be able to sanitize the containers with star-san, dumping 200deg liquid in, removing the air by squeezing the sides, and sealing it should pasteurize the rest. It supposedly works down under, so I guess I just have to give it a shot!

Daddymem · May 2, 2009

You will be fine, browse on over to the Aussie board and you'll find plenty of people no chilling and have been for quite some time, nobody dead, nobody sick, great beer.

LooyvilleLarry · May 2, 2009

Daddymem said:
You will be fine, browse on over to the Aussie board and you'll find plenty of people no chilling and have been for quite some time, nobody dead, nobody sick, great beer.

I doubt you'll find anyone there waiting a week or more before STARTING fermentation.

The Pol · May 2, 2009

lrr81765 said:
I doubt you'll find anyone there waiting a week or more before STARTING fermentation.

Aussies store thiers for weeks.

Dr_Deathweed · May 2, 2009

lrr81765 said:
I doubt you'll find anyone there waiting a week or more before STARTING fermentation.

From the Aussiehomebrewer.com wiki:

Storability (Extended Storage)

Cubes that have been properly packed may be stored for extended periods. Some users have reported good results with cubes being stored for over a year. Personally I have stored cubes for 1 to 2 months without issue.

Dr_Deathweed · May 2, 2009

TeufelBrew said:
D-Weed, get those worts going.

Possibility for ruined batches, yeah. But it's experimentation based on some decent educated guesswork and a little incentive thrown in. Sanitize, seal and ferment as your system space allows. Doesn't look like you be out much if the later batches don't turn out well.

I like your willingness to try and the gumption to do it LARGE.

Thanks, I will be brewing probably next Friday, I have some materials to pick up and a couple fixes to do to my brew rig that I will be doing on Wednesday and Thursday. Here is what I plan to brew:

11gal American Wheat (for normal chill and immediate fermentation)
11gal Munich/Sterling SMaSH (storage for at least 2-3 weeks)
and possibly if I am feeling frisky - 11gal Amber rye (storage 3-6 weeks)

I will post pictures and update as this progresses, but I still welcome any concerns as someone may think of something I have not yet.

Also if anyone is interested, here is some more reading from the Aussiehomebrewer.com wiki on this, I will post it here since you need to be a member to read it on their site:

You will find a lot of posts on this forum mentioning the "no-chill" method and also the use of a cube. There isn't really any great mystery about the no-chill method and it can be utilised easily, cheaply and with excellent results.

Traditionally there has been a school of thought that suggests; that after boiling wort it must be cooled quickly to promote the formation of cold break and allow for the pitching of yeast ASAP. As a result there are a plethora of weird and wonderful chillers out there to allow you to chill your wort quickly and effectively.

Another school of though has recently gained momentum which promotes the use of cube to effectively "hot-pack" the wort post boiling, thereby allowing it to cool over an extended period of time eg overnight.

I will try and explain, to the best of my ability, what this method involves, possible problems and important points to consider in its use. I'll start at the beginning...

What is a Cube?

This is a common question one sees on beer forums. Essentially it is a food grade sealable plastic water container or jerry can made of the same material as a fermenter. A picture is worth a thousand words, so...

They are available in a range of sizes eg 15L, 20L, 25L from camping / hardware stores and typically range from $10 to $15.

Also worth mentioning is that, for example a 20L cube will actually hold 23 odd litres.

OK I've Got A Cube, Now What?

Essentially the method involves the following:

- You make your wort as you normally would.
- After flameout and whirlpooling, and with appropriate hosing, drain the still near boiling wort into a plastic cube, trying to avoiding splashing.
- Once you have drained the kettle into the cube, squeeze as much of the air out of the cube as you can and seal it with the lid.
- Put the cube on its side for 10 minutes or so to allow the hot wort to come into contact with handle and lid.
- Leave the hot cube to cool overnight (upright) or however long it takes to arrive at pitching temperatures.
- Pour the contents of the cube into a fermenter, splashing as much as possible to assist in aeration and pitch yeast as you would normally.

That's the crux of it!

Sanitising

Cleanliness with this method as with all aspects of brewing is essential.

Before using the cube ensure that it is clean and sanitised. My personal regime sees me storing cubes (when not in use) with a couple of litres of bleach solution in them. I occasionally give the cube a shake when passing to cover the cube walls. On brew day I clean out the bleach solution and give it a shot with idophor to sanitise. I always clean out the cube thoroughly immediately after use. There are many ways to clean the cube - use what works for you in other aspects of your brewing.

The hose used for transferring the hot wort must also be cleaned. Typically I connect the hose to the kettle during the later parts of the boil and recirculate boiling wort through it and the ball valve to flush out any nasties. The end of the hose that goes into the cube gets put into the boiling wort during the boil to sanitise. Again do what works for you to ensure everything is sanitary.

Storability (Extended Storage)

Cubes that have been properly packed may be stored for extended periods. Some users have reported good results with cubes being stored for over a year. Personally I have stored cubes for 1 to 2 months without issue.

Getting The Air Out / Squeezing The Cube

It is suggested that most if not all of the air in a cube should be expelled when sealing. However occasionally it may be impossible to do so. I have not encountered any ill effects from not expelling all the air. But as a general rule, if I intend to store a cube for over a week I ensure that most of the air has been expelled or use a smaller cube.

Benefits

No-chilling has a series of benefits including
- minimal outlay (no chiller required to make all grain beer, only a cube)
- minimal time required (the time usually allocated to chill the wort is avoided on brew day)
- minimal water required (ie sanitisation only)
- storability of the wort for extended periods (wort production does not have to coincide with yeast starter preparation)
- ability to make wort in bulk and store for later fermentation
- portability of wort in the cube

Making Higher Gravity Wort (Dilution at Fermentation Time)

An option with this method is take wort of a higher gravity eg 17 litres of 1.060 SG wort can be diluted with 3 litres to give 20 litres of 1.051 SG wort. This allows you to use cubes of a smaller capacity and make double batches ie two cubes of wort without having the capacity of doing a full final volume boil.

Dry Hopping In The Cube (Cube Hopping)

No-chilling allows hops to be added to the cube before the hot wort is transferred into it. There is some discussion about the possibility of doing away with the normal aroma / late addition and replacing it with cube hopping - effectively allowing more of the hop aroma to be trapped within the cube. I am not aware of any definitive examination of this however but have dry hopped in the cube for extra hoppiness.

Can I Replace the Cube's Bung With A Tap?

I have put taps on a couple of my cubes and have not had a problem. They do make it easier when transferring wort to the fermenter. I find it a bit of a challange sometimes, when trying to tip a full cube into a fermenter, to get the wort in without spilling any.

What If My Cube Starts to Swell?

You will find that as a cube cools its sides begin to get sucked in (essentially cooled wort is about 4% smaller (volume wise) than hot/boiling wort). This is nothing to be concerned about.

However should the cube begin to swell after it has cooled this may be an indication of an infection. What you do in this scenario is your choice. You can discard the wort or ferment it to see how it turns out.

I have never had a cube swell / be infected in over 20 batches. Some users report the same for 100 plus batches.

Caveats

- Ensure the cube and hose are sanitary.
- Do not be tempted to cool the cube prematurely by putting it into a swimming pool or other body of water. Rapidly cooled hot packed wort can give rise to infections as it does not allow for the cube to be exposed to the hot wort for long enough to ensure that any bacteria in the cube is killed.
- Remember to place the cube on its side after packing to expose the handle and cap directly to the hot wort.

No-Chill Critics

Some research into the no-chill method will bring up some criticism of the method. Arguments against include
- Beer haziness
- Problems with long term beer stability
- Loss of hop aroma
- Increased bitterness
- Leeching plastic
- DMS production
- And in the extreme the risk of botulism (a deadly anaerobic bacteria)

I have not encountered any of these problems in the beer I have made nor have members of the Illawarra Brewers Union who employ the method almost exclusively.

Other Remarks

The no-chill method is advantageous to the brewer as it allows him/her to do away with a chiller (which can be expensive and consume water / resources / time). It basically allows the novice brewer to cross over to all grain brewing (the dark side) much more easily. Further other advantages are to be found in storability of bulk wort and being able to control when you ferment the wort.

Before discounting the method give it a go to see if you find any of the benefits to be had in no-chilling exist for your brewing.

Cheers

Cortez The Killer

Discussion Topic Link

Here is a picture of a finished cube on its side

HomebrewJeff · May 3, 2009

deathweed said:
Also if anyone is interested, here is some more reading from the Aussiehomebrewer.com wiki on this, I will post it here since you need to be a member to read it on their site:

Wow, thanks for including that information. Seeing it written this way I have a much better idea of what you are trying to do. The "no chill" part is actually critical to the process as it's also serving the purpose of sanitizing, and this means glass is not an option (which is what i was originally thinking).

Oh, and yea, thanks for introducing me to the aussiehomebrew site. Just what I need, another beer forum to keep up with.

Exploring "no chill" brewing

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