JrBeerGut
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So, you just sanitize some containers by boiling them and scoop it out of the fermenter bucket? Then you make a starter from that? Approximately how many pint size jars would you get from a 5 gallon batch?
Yeast Washing Illustrated
- Thread starter Bernie Brewer
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So, you just sanitize some containers by boiling them and scoop it out of the fermenter bucket? Then you make a starter from that? Approximately how many pint size jars would you get from a 5 gallon batch?
Yes, that's the jist of it, although I don't scoop, I pour. And I brew often enough that I rarely make a starter.
I get a lot of yeast from the bottom of a 5 gallon batch but I don't know how many pint jars. 6 maybe? I use quart jars, and about 2/3 of a quart jar is enough for a 11 gallon sized 1.055 OG ale a couple of weeks later.
I do this: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=519995
flars
Well-Known Member
kombat
Well-Known Member
I never seal mine completely. I always screw the lid down tight, then back it off 1/8th of a turn. Bacteria can't crawl, and there's no concern about the protective layer of beer oxidizing (unless you plan on drinking it?)
This is also what they recommend in "Yeast."
So if people don't consider you an expert, at least there's a couple of yeast experts who agree with you.
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This is my first attempt at washing yeast. If it's this easy, I can't believe I didn't try this before. Time to buy some more pint sized mason jars. I use dry yeast often also, but this will be nice for some more of the expensive liquid yeasts.
[URL=http://s199.photobucket.com/user/Mikes145/media/Beer/IMAG2096.jpg.html][/URL]
I'm glad your yeast washing was successful. I've been brewing for 10 years and make excellent beer, mostly lagers, but my yeast washing skills are aweful. It never comes out right for some reason. It's so aggravating. The quantity of yeast that settles out in my pint jars is usually a very small amount. It seems so easy too.
Yooper, next time you're in Boston let's do a yeast washing class. lol!!!
johnhenryrolf
Well-Known Member
Great thread! This is the next step in my brewing process, I haven't read absolutely every post yet, but I'm excited about starting to propagate my own yeast...scared, but excited!
I am making my first attempt at yeast washing; I followed the instructions and waited 20 minutes to pou then waited another 20 minutes. What I was left with is this....
Is the middle layer really all that I want? If so I am wondering if I should measure the bottom layer, re shake and when the bottom layer reaches a similar hieght repour. Any advice?
Is the middle layer really all that I want? If so I am wondering if I should measure the bottom layer, re shake and when the bottom layer reaches a similar hieght repour. Any advice?
bristela
Well-Known Member
The longer you wait the less viable the yeast will be. But there will most likely still be some left. It will more than likely just affect how long you need to have the subsequent starter culture going before you reuse it.
Cheers
uglyamerican00
Active Member
After washing the yeast and the pint of yeast is ready for a starter later down the road, do I decant the clear liquid off the top before I make the starter?
I opened up a jar of washed yeast (WY 1056) today to make a new starter, and I got some sort of strong odor, somewhere between acetone or another solvent, and the color was a little darker than the normal light beige harvested yeast. To be fair, this was washed, following this procedure, in March 2015. So, it's been in the fridge for a while. 
I decanted off nearly all the liquid and pitched it just to see what happens. The question is, what's the likelihood this will take off, and will this cause any off-flavors in my brew this weekend? Cheers! 
I decanted off nearly all the liquid and pitched it just to see what happens. The question is, what's the likelihood this will take off, and will this cause any off-flavors in my brew this weekend? Cheers! 
Brave without a starter. I'd have recommended a starter to build up the cell count (a lot have probably died while in the fridge) and then check the aroma of the yeast at that point. Your nose is a pretty good indicator of what flavors and\or aromas the yeasties will produce.
Best of luck to you. Hope it works out.
Brave without a starter. I'd have recommended a starter to build up the cell count (a lot have probably died while in the fridge) and then check the aroma of the yeast at that point. Your nose is a pretty good indicator of what flavors and\or aromas the yeasties will produce.
Best of luck to you. Hope it works out.
I should have said "I pitched it into a starter". It does smell more normal now. I'm crashing it today and I'm going to step it up into a second starter before my brew day Saturday. If the stepped up starter has any weird odors, I'll buy a fresh smack pack. Thanks.
Jaxmickey
Colin Craft Brewing
Thanks for the info Bernie! What would you estimate the cell count of the mason jars?
BubbaBrewer78
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Beautiful job, now I understand it!
Nebraskan
Assoc. Winemaker
Long article. Boiling for 1 minute will kill any and all things of concern. Distilled water in a new container is what I used. Yeast dies at 110 F and ML dies at 95-100 for most strains. There is very little else that you would have concerns about. When you racked and there is that open container, there is an abundance of fresh air as well as some microbes that made their way into the carboy. Unavoidable.
Yeast that have run out of food reserves often don't die, unless they have budded already around 26 times and are at end of life. Most will just re-do themselves at a cellular level, storing metabolized carbon and hibernate. Refrigerator will keep them in hibernation very well.
Ref: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3743100/
And this very informative article: https://www.morebeer.com/articles/how_yeast_use_oxygen
So unless you do all this in a clean room (such as some electronics or pharmaceutical rooms) you can only do so much in your "kitchen".
Yeast that have run out of food reserves often don't die, unless they have budded already around 26 times and are at end of life. Most will just re-do themselves at a cellular level, storing metabolized carbon and hibernate. Refrigerator will keep them in hibernation very well.
Ref: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3743100/
And this very informative article: https://www.morebeer.com/articles/how_yeast_use_oxygen
So unless you do all this in a clean room (such as some electronics or pharmaceutical rooms) you can only do so much in your "kitchen".
Griffin495
Well-Known Member
Question on pitching. Say I do this and get 4 pint sized jars of washed yeast from a 5 gallon batch. My next batch is going to be a 2.5 gallon batch of beer with an OG of 1.048. If I don't want to make a yeast starter, would one jar be enough? OR should I pitch two jars of the yeast slurry?
When yeast ferments the wort, it creates an ideal environment for itself to survive and to last and at the same time this environment is not very good for bacteria, mold and other unwanted guests.
So why should I want to remove the yeast from this environment, which is so much superior to sterilized water, by"washing" the yeast?
Doesn't make sense at all. Safe the slurry, top up with some of the fermented beer, job done.
Also the cell count will be huge, so no starter for the next batch necessary.
So why should I want to remove the yeast from this environment, which is so much superior to sterilized water, by"washing" the yeast?
Doesn't make sense at all. Safe the slurry, top up with some of the fermented beer, job done.
Also the cell count will be huge, so no starter for the next batch necessary.
madscientist451
Well-Known Member
I agree with Miraculix, I stopped "washing" the yeast slurry a few years ago and just save the slurry and re-pitch about half a jar into the next batch. If it has been in the fridge for a while, I'll build up a starter.
Seems to be working fine.
Seems to be working fine.
Nebraskan
Assoc. Winemaker
I am curious about the live-ability of yeast in higher strength of alcohol, aka EtOH. What if we stored yeast that was well cleaned in a solution of 20% EtOH, vodka diluted to 20%? I know when we add Hi Proof to our Chancellor and Chambourcin wines to bring them to 18% EtOH, for making port, that it stops the yeasts and protects the wine from further fermentation and helps to preserve the wine as well. I have always been told, and led to believe, that they are killed at higher EtOH concentrations. Are they, or are they merely stunted into dormancy? In other words, are they killed or merely stunted at the higher alcohol levels?
PRESERVATION: Or perhaps use those plastic "frozen pop" trays with lollipop sticks and put in the slurry into those and freeze them. Afterward put into Ziploc bags or mason jars and keep in the freezer? It'll keep the significant other, and kids, from randomly grabbing a Popsicle to eat, huh?
PRESERVATION: Or perhaps use those plastic "frozen pop" trays with lollipop sticks and put in the slurry into those and freeze them. Afterward put into Ziploc bags or mason jars and keep in the freezer? It'll keep the significant other, and kids, from randomly grabbing a Popsicle to eat, huh?
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Nebraskan
Assoc. Winemaker
ADDENDUM: I believe that the yeast are strictly dormant, not killed off, by the higher alcohol. I started a tread about this as I tried taking some well working yeast, bumping it to 20% Alcohol and then leaving it alone in my refrigerator for quite some time. Drained out the EtOH down to the yeast, added fresh water, yeast nutrient, some corn sugar, and it started back up. Hmmmmm
Michael_Calgary
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"Then when it's time to make a starter, you just pull one out, let it warm to room temp, and decant most of the liquid out of the jar, give the rest a good shake, and pitch it into your starter.."
Hi, Sorry if this is a dumb question... when you say "Decant most of the liquid out of the jar, give the rest a good shake, and pitch it into your starter.." Are you saying remove most of the liquid AND discard that liquid? Then only pitch what is left in the bottom?
Hi, Sorry if this is a dumb question... when you say "Decant most of the liquid out of the jar, give the rest a good shake, and pitch it into your starter.." Are you saying remove most of the liquid AND discard that liquid? Then only pitch what is left in the bottom?
"Then when it's time to make a starter, you just pull one out, let it warm to room temp, and decant most of the liquid out of the jar, give the rest a good shake, and pitch it into your starter.."
Please, quote like this, so others can see who you're quoting and where you're quoting from, for reference:
In this case, post #3, almost 11 years ago, in a 2544 post thread.
Yes, you only want to keep a small amount of that beer that's on top, behind. About 1/3-1/2 of the height of the cake on the bottom. Enough to swirl or stir it up into a pourable slurry, with a consistency of V8 juice. If it's still too thick you can add some boiled and cooled water, or scoop it out as is and add to your wort. Then give it a good stir to suspend.
If you have a quart jar full of yeast and trub mix, you need to make an educated guess of how much yeast is in there. There are plenty of resources that point you in the right direction, and use a calculator like Mr. Malty. IOW, you don't need or even want to pour a quart of yeast cake into a 5 gallon batch.
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Michael_Calgary
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Sorry, when I was trying to reply it kept adding every picture that was in the post to my reply so I just deleted it all and typed the relevant part I needed an answer to. And YUP, a 2544 post thread would be a lot to read for an answer that might not be there. So, just thought it would be faster to ask.
Thank you for the reply! I've been meaning to try saving yeast. Just now getting serious about reading up on it. Just don't want to ruin an all grain batch.. specifically the time it takes, by pitching junk into my primary.
The beauty of our new software is to make that quoting part so easy.
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If you trust your sanitation, harvesting yeast from fermentations, or ranching yeast from overbuilt starters, is a viable alternative to buying more packs of the same. Many of us do this all the time, and it's easy.
Dave Sarber
Unindicted Co-conspirator
K, I'm stickying this thread.
I started a batch of sour blond ale last week using Wyeast 3278 Lambic Blend. Will Bernie's yeast washing illustrated method replicate a blend of yeasts, wild yeasts, and bacteria such as Wyeast 3278?
No it won't, but it's not due to the "washing."
BTW, yeast washing is a whole different process, the method Bernie describes is actually called yeast "rinsing."
The composition of blends change during fermentation (and storage) as the microorganism populations it contains grow (and autolyze) at different rates. Lactobacillus (bacteria) multiplies much faster than Pedio or the yeast.
Brett is a notoriously slow grower, but given enough time she will be the last girl standing.* She'll even metabolize autolyzed (dead) yeast and bacteria, turning them into yummy flavor and aroma compounds. All together that may take 3 years.
* Or as someone once so eloquently said:
"Brett may not win the battle, but she'll win the war!"
I figured this was the case from other comments I've seen. The blend wouldn't stay true.
This maybe isn't the right tread to ask unrelated questions, but here goes. I started the Wyeast 3278 Lambic Blend batch on 5/13/2020, and understand it needs to age as much as six months. It's still in the primary in the 66 - 68 degrees F temperature range. What are your thoughts on moving the temperature range up a few degrees at some point?
It's been 5 weeks after pitching, it should be done with the primary fermentation.
I'd rack/transfer to a keg if you have one (or a carboy filled to an inch under the bung) and move it to an area in the low 60s for the duration of maturing.
I prefer a keg with a shortened dip tube as I can easily push out a sample to test in a few months, while she's sitting there, sealed tight. You need to vent her from time to time (put it on your calendar!) or stick an airlock with stopper in the PRV hole after removing the PRV valve.
It is in a carboy, where I was planning to leave it. I could move it to another carboy, but there would be more than an inch of headroom. I can lower the temperature where it is.
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Every description I've read of this process (which I've done a half dozen times) says that after I've added some (.5-1 gallon) sterilized water to the yeast/trub cake left after racking from primary, and given it a couple of minutes of swirling/shaking, I should see two layers develop, one a lighter, creamy color that is yeast, and, below that, a darker layer that is supposed to be trub. When I do that, I get three layers, one that is sort of a clear amber (which I assume is mostly the water I've added), then a middle layer that is darker than a bottom layer that is sort of creamy and light. The instructions say to pour off the top, creamy layer, but they are not clear as to whether I'm supposed to decant the top layer of mostly water or pour that with the middle layer. Even though my middle layer is always a bit darker than the bottom layer, can I assume that that layer is, in fact, mostly yeast?
After I've poured off the top two layers (lately, I've been decanting about half of that top layer of mostly water) into a large, sterilized jar, the instructions say to let that settle for an hour or more. They say I should then see three layers. On top should be a pale mixture of water with some yeast. The middle layer should be thinner and more solid white. This is, supposedly, almost pure yeast. Finally, at the bottom is supposed to be another, darker layer that is almost all trub. Again here, I get a pale top layer, a middle layer that is a bit darker than a bottom layer that is whiter. Both of the bottom two layers are about the same thickness. After it has all settled, I am supposed to carefully pour off the top two layers into 3-4 sterilized pint jars. Here, if you have used 3/4 or a full gallon of sterilized water to start with, there's definitely not room for more than about 3/4 of the top layer (some yeast, but mostly water). And by the time I've poured that off, the bottom two layers are getting pretty mixed together.
So I am hoping for some help/advice.
Should I be decanting off some of the mostly water layer in both steps?
Should I assume that the middle layer (in both steps) is, in fact, mostly yeast even though it is never lighter in color than the bottom layer?
Thanks for any help you can offer.
After I've poured off the top two layers (lately, I've been decanting about half of that top layer of mostly water) into a large, sterilized jar, the instructions say to let that settle for an hour or more. They say I should then see three layers. On top should be a pale mixture of water with some yeast. The middle layer should be thinner and more solid white. This is, supposedly, almost pure yeast. Finally, at the bottom is supposed to be another, darker layer that is almost all trub. Again here, I get a pale top layer, a middle layer that is a bit darker than a bottom layer that is whiter. Both of the bottom two layers are about the same thickness. After it has all settled, I am supposed to carefully pour off the top two layers into 3-4 sterilized pint jars. Here, if you have used 3/4 or a full gallon of sterilized water to start with, there's definitely not room for more than about 3/4 of the top layer (some yeast, but mostly water). And by the time I've poured that off, the bottom two layers are getting pretty mixed together.
So I am hoping for some help/advice.
Should I be decanting off some of the mostly water layer in both steps?
Should I assume that the middle layer (in both steps) is, in fact, mostly yeast even though it is never lighter in color than the bottom layer?
Thanks for any help you can offer.
I have not done yeast rinsing or yeast washing, but it is interesting to me. It might be informative to include pictures of what you are seeing. You describe colors and values (light/dark), and it might be good for folks to see what you're seeing.
In the original posts in this thread, the bottom two "layers" look similar in color, and I couldn't say one is darker than the other. The point of letting the mixture in the fermenter sit for 20 minutes or so is, I think, that while the yeast will mostly stay in suspension in the watery liquid, the other material or "trub" mostly will fall out of suspension. When poring into the large jar, the idea is to leave most if not all of that bottom layer behind.
As before, once the mixture is in the large jar, any trub in the mix will fall out of suspension first, and after the 20 minutes or so, the watery liquid and yeast still in suspension can be poured off into the small jars being careful again to leave the bottom layer behind.
In your case I think you wait longer than 20 minutes, and the bottom two layers are about the same thickness. Here again it would be good to see a picture. You may have more liquid (water and possibly beer that wasn't racked off) on hand. Any purely clear liquid would have little yeast. The original post says to fill up the small jars to full before sealing them, and you might need some of that liquid just to fill up the bulk space in the small jars. Maybe decanting and reserving it in a sterilized jar would be the way to go. You could fill up the small jars to full using the reserved liquid if needed.
Over the last few days I have been lowering the temperature to the 60-62F range. It isn't fermenting anymore. There is a ring of foam still around the edge as you can see.
That looks like a krausen ring, the sticky deposit left behind where the foamy krausen once was, and has since fallen.
Judging by the clarity of your beer and the thick yeast/trub cake on the bottom, you're ready to package this beauty.
What do you want to achieve with that?
(This is off the topic of rinsing yeast, but it is where this conversation started, so hear is my answer. I like the original post, and want to try it sometime. This writing pertains mostly to something else.)
I missed your question until just a bit ago, then thought I would wait until the batch was bottled and I had a chance to sample the finished product. I lowered the temperature to let the beer age for six months in the primary fermenter. It was sealed really well with a blow-off tube, and bubbles kept coming through. The temperature controller failed, and the temperature dropped to below 50F, which maybe wasn't a bad thing in and of itself. But the water dried out of the glass where the end of the blow-off was sitting, exposing the beer to oxygen, and CO2 generation seemed to have stopped. A pellicle had formed on the surface of the beer; I am not sure if that could have protected it from oxygen. This was at about five months of aging. I corrected the temperature and replaced the dried up water. Then in trying to locate an electrical open problem at the house, unwittingly turned off the power to this particular circuit, and the temperature went up to about 70F for maybe a day.
To bottle, I hydrated 2.5 grams of EC-1118 yeast, boiled 2.6 ounces of corn sugar in about a pint of water, then when cooled, added these things to the bottling bucket after transferring the beer. Stirring gently at the beginning and after every few bottles, it yielded 21 pints.
There was an additional very partial bottle I sampled after one week. It had some off-flavor, I guess bitterness would describe it. Oxidized I'm sure, but not undrinkable. After two weeks I sampled a full bottle. It was lightly carbonated and was mildly sour with a nice funky taste. It may be a little oxidized.
It was an experience. Still learning from it. I want to try simpler sours that don't take so long, and maybe a saison next summer using some other Wyeast liquid yeast and try to rinse that yeast after the first batch to use for another batch or two, etc.
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