Wiring question

[stooby]

So I've made the decision to go electric. I'm single vessel, no pump and I think I've figured out the control panel. Question is about the 30 amp circuit. I've got an existing dryer outlet but it's on the other side of a wall adjacent to my brewing area. Do you tie in to the outlet at the receptacle and run wire up and over the wall and come down and install a plug there? You would have 2 30A outlets on a 30A circuit. I'm not sure about electrical code governing this. Obviously you couldn't run both dryer and element at same time but no big deal. Outlet is 3 prong

 

[IslandLizard]

Why not just plug your 30A panel supply cord into the dryer socket?
The only thing is, you can't put that "extension cord" behind walls or tack it down, although you may retain it, loosely.

With the 3-prongs, if you don't pull any 110 inside your CP, it's probably within code too.
You do need a ground wire and a GFCI. That's why so many use a Spa Panel, as that includes a GFCI, all for $75.

Disclaimer: I'm not an electrician!

 

[stooby]

How could I get the supply cord into the next room? Cut a hole in ceiling on both sides of wall? Doesn't seem appealing to me

 

[IslandLizard]

How could I get the supply cord into the next room? Cut a hole in ceiling on both sides of wall? Doesn't seem appealing to me

Make a duct (hole) in the wall to the opposite side.

Or connect a socket on your brewery wall to the dryer socket on the other side. Just don't run both at the same time. If you do, your main panel circuit breaker will trip and protect the wiring from overload.

 

[stooby]

I would rather hard wire it from existing plug up through wall and install outlet in other room, just don't know if that violates any code

 

[IslandLizard]

I would rather hard wire it from existing plug up through wall and install outlet in other room, just don't know if that violates any code

It's not a plug it's "receptacle" or "outlet."

If you never run both at the same time it's OK for you, but code doesn't provision for that. Those kind of "high power" outlets are supposed to be on a single circuit.

 

[Dland]

Another option would be to make up an extension cord out of SOOW 10/4(or 3, maybe). Then you just use existing outlet, store cord between brew sessions.

 

[stooby]

Again, what am I supposed to do with extension cord? Punching it straight thru the wall is primitive at best. Also, the dryer OUTLET is a foot off the floor so pulling dryer out and trying to reach down and plug it in is out. I'm just looking for someone with knowledge of electrical codes to give me some advice. I'll have to check but I think my breaker box is full or I could run a new circuit

 

[IslandLizard]

I'll have to check but I think my breaker box is full or I could run a new circuit

You can put some 15A or 20A tandem breakers in your panel to free up the space for a dual pole 30A or 50A one for your brewery. If you don't want to shell out the $150+ for a GFCI panel breaker there, stick in a normal one, and run an adequately sized 3-wire-plus-ground cable that connects to a Spa (sub)panel in your brewery. Since cost difference between a 30A and 50A circuit is minimal, I'd urge for a 50A circuit, to future-proof possible expansions with no pain.

Again, I'm not an electrician!

 

[Dland]

If you are worried about code, better check with a local electrician. There is a national code, but actual code as implemented varies from state to state. Island Lizard's suggestion to free up breakers might be your best bet, unless your service is already over utilized.

One way or the other, you will probably have to cut up a wall somewhere if you can't run a cord. I recently punched though an exterior wall to pick up a 10/4 romex and pulled it though to exterior to add outlet for a additional brew heater circuit. I put a switch plate there on inside with a 30A double throw so I could turn it off w/o going to breaker box, but could have put a blank to cover the hole in wall.

 

[Wizard_of_Frobozz]

I had this same question about the 240v outlets. See this thread: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/2-50-amp-outlets-on-the-same-circuit.637807/

According to my local electrical inspector, it's 100% compliant with code to have multiple outlets on the same circuit. Think about it this way: you have lots of 15 amp outlets around your house that are all one one circuit. The breaker protects the circuit/wire from overloading them. It's up to you not to run your vacuum cleaner, TV, computer, table lamps, etc. all at the same time. But even if you do, the breaker will trip and the system is protected from over current.

I recently had the rough electrical run in for my brew room (as referenced in the above thread). I have two 50 amp 240v outlets on the same circuit; the inspector passed it with no issues. The only real difficulty was finding wire nuts to join 6 gauge wires together. Went with Polaris connectors, which aren't cheap but are solid and won't come loose on me.

If you can, cut a new outlet box into the wall right on the other side of the existing dryer outlet, then jump off the existing wires and install the 2nd outlet box. I still wouldn't use basic wire nuts if I could avoid it to join the circuits, and go with something more solid. Keep in mind that any wire connectors/nuts MUST be inside an electrical box and not just in the wall.

 

[stooby]

Thanks! I had the same thoughts about a bunch of 120 outlets on same circuit but didn't know if the higher amperage circuits were treated differently.

 

[IslandLizard]

According to my local electrical inspector...

Mind, as @Dland already indicated, codes may vary by State and Locality.

 

[Wizard_of_Frobozz]

Yeah, a lot does depend on your local inspector, which is why I was concerned a while ago. A little knowledge of the electrical code goes a long way in arguing with the inspector however.

Per the NEC 2014 (it's the copy I have on hand at the moment...newer ones may be different but I doubt it), section 210.21 (B) (3):

"Receptacle Ratings. Where connected to a branch circuit supplying two or more receptacles or outlets, receptacle ratings shall conform to the values listed in Table 210.21 (B) (3), or where rated higher than 50 amperes, the receptacle rating shall not be less than the branch-circuit rating"

Table 210.21 (B) (3) lists circuit ratings of 15, 20 , 30, 40, and 50 amperes and shows that the receptacle rating can be the same as the overall current rating for the circuit.

To me, this clearly allows multiple outlet circuits on anything up to 50 amperes.

There is only one exception that I found: 210.17 "Electric Vehicle Branch Circuit. An outlet(s) installed for the purpose of charging electric vehicles shall be supplied by a separate branch circuit. This circuit shall have no other outlets."

 

[mongoose33]

I just installed 240v into my garage to support my electric brewing.

Some of the above are exactly the issues I faced. Here's what I did, might give you some ideas.

1. Main breaker panel is in the basement, and it was FULL. I just doubled up a couple of minor circuits to free up the two spaces I needed to install a 50-amp breaker. You can also do double-breakers (two circuits and breakers in the space where a normal single goes), but I didn't; for my Square-D panel they're expensive.

2. I then ran 6-gauge wire from that box up to the joists in the basement, drilled holes through the joists, and then out through the rim joist into the garage.

3. I installed sub panel from which I could wire the rest of the garage; one 30-amp circuit for the brewing panel I'm using, and a couple 20-amp circuits for other uses like the chiller and the RIMS controller/element.

The beauty of the sub panel is I can add circuits as I need to--in fact, could even wire in a separate circuit to charge an electric vehicle should I ever get one of those.

To get the wiring over to where I needed it, I constructed some wiring chases. They're surface-mounted so no issues of going through the walls.

*******

Maybe some of this gives you an idea. Do you have a basement or a crawl space below the floor? Maybe you can go down and over instead of up and over.

And think about surface conduit as a way to dress it up. If you're trying to get through a wall, that's a way to make it look nice on both sides. And frankly, if you're coming from a laundry room to a brewing space, nobody's going to be looking at how you went through the wall.

I've attached a couple pics showing what I did. I added a 30-amp GFCI breaker, which almost was a deal-breaker: it cost me $103. But I needed something, and didn't quite understand how to make a spa panel work (plus I wanted a code-compliant 4-wire solution, wasn't sure how to do that w/ the spa panel).

The surface conduit--which was simply some 1x4 and 1x3 boards as well as some hardboard--runs up to the ceiling from the sub panel, and then over to where I drop that down to where I wanted the receptacles.

In the pic with the sub panel, I haven't run the main supply wire up from below, but after getting the other conduit in place, I ran the wire up from the rim joist from below and used surface conduit for that too.

And one more thing: If you want to be sure you meet code, you're going to need an inspector or electrician to help you. Local codes, as noted above, can vary, so advice here may be moot. A friend of mine, who's also a brewer, is an electrician. He helped me plan this out, and I did most of the work. He, however, made the connections in the main breaker panel, and at the sub panel.

 

[stooby]

No I have no basement, but my roof is super tall so I have plenty of room in attic to run wires up and down walls. I didn't think about doubling up circuits in breaker panel, that might be a better solution than tying onto dryer outlet which is 3 prong. It's my understanding that you have to somehow convert it to 4 wire in spa panel and then I guess just use 3 wires to element. A couple of other questions, are contactors necessary in control box? Or just ezboil + 40A relay/heatsink? Also I plan to use pigtail at element to disconnect. Where to get cheapest triclamp setup to go thru brewpot. Thanks

 

[Wizard_of_Frobozz]

I assume that means your existing 30 amp circuit feeding your dryer outlet is only 2 wires + ground (black, white, and bare/green wires coming into the box). In that case, you "can" use the existing 30 amp circuit as long as you don't plan on using any 120vac loads (like a pump, which you said you don't plan to use but I still highly recommend!) It gets a bit tricky to install a GFCI breaker but not impossible. That being said, you are much better off with 4-wire, since it adds a neutral wire, which opens the possibility of 120vac loads and gives another conductor back to the panel. The heating element will only get 2 hot wires (plus a ground somewhere to your kettle/heating element housing no matter if your supply is 3 or 4 wires.

As for the contactors, no they are not necessary. You do want something to shut off all power to the system in the event of an issue, but contactors aren't the only way to go. I use one of these double pole switches to kill both hot wires going into my rig and it works just fine - it's rated for 30 amps and you can buy them at Home Depot or Lowes as well. It's a lot faster to hit the switch vs. unplug the power cable and pretty cheap. Put it in a standard weatherproof light switch box.

If you end up running a new circuit, I would seriously think about going 50 amp instead - spa panels come with a 50 amp GFCI breaker. The extra power is nice - I have a 30 amp rig but my new brew room is going to have 50 amp so I can upgrade. However, the above switch won't work for you in that case, since it's only good to 30 amps. That's typically why people use contactors - you can get them rated for more than 30 amps.

For the triclamp setup, I'll recommend Bobby's solution at brewhardware.com. He has some that you can solder onto the kettle vs. a weld-less solution too.

 

[stooby]

I got an electrician friend to come over today and he said I could tie onto the existing 30A dryer circuit in my breaker panel (no room to install new circuit and all breakers already double). So I went to Lowes to get some 10/3 wire (need about 40ft). Price for 50ft was $82. Something inside my feeble brain said check amazon. Same exact Romex wire $49 - Amazon prime free shipping. It pays to shop around

 

[stooby]

Ok so I'm making progress. Ready to install spa panel. Will have 4 wires going into the control panel. I'm using a heating element with the integrated plug attached to it. So I'll run 3 wires to plug (2 hot, 1 ground). Do I just terminate neutral wire in control panel? Could I use it to install a 120V outlet in panel? Also, any benefits to installing a 240V outlet on panel vs running the 3 wire directly to female plug for element? I'm full of questions and I very much appreciate the help

 

[Wizard_of_Frobozz]

Do I just terminate neutral wire in control panel?

Yes as long as you aren’t using it for any 120v loads.

Could I use it to install a 120V outlet in panel?

Yes. Make sure that outlet has got its own properly sized breaker on the hot side or use 10 gauge wire so you don’t risk overloading the 120v circuit. This assumes you’re sticking with 30 amp and have a 30 amp breaker protecting the whole thing.

Also, any benefits to installing a 240V outlet on panel vs running the 3 wire directly to female plug for element?

It just gives you another place you can pull a plug out if something goes wrong. Generally overkill but it can be nice to have depending on how hard it is to get to the kettle plug in a hurry.

 

[stooby]

I'm thinking of using the spa panel as a power switch to panel (it'll be right next to it) eliminating 120V outlet (2 outlets on wall already) & doing without 240A outlet. Last question, do I need to ground kettle. It has plug attached to element. Thanks again

 

[Wizard_of_Frobozz]

Last question, do I need to ground kettle. It has plug attached to element. Thanks again

You do want the kettle grounded - absolutely needed. However, if the heater element plug/enclosure is grounded and there is good metal to metal contact between that and the kettle, then you don't need to separately ground the kettle, since that contact will ground the kettle.

You can check this by doing a continuity test between the system ground and the kettle when everything is plugged together.