Why do general contractors suck so badly?

[GearBeer]

So, after *checks calendar* 5 months of stop and go progress on the two garages (one attached and one detached) I'm having built I got a visit from the siding subcontractor today. Apparently the general contractor has not payed him for my job or, at least, 3 other jobs. (The same goes for the other trades, apparently) Sooooo... unless he gets paid he's going to put a lien on my house.

This has been a 5 month adventure through the land of incompetence and inadequacy. They forgot one basic requirement, poured the footings wrong, got the wrong lumber (2x4 instead of 2x6), trimmed two doors in beige when my house and garage are gray, FORGOT A WINDOW, ran the electrical to the wrong side of my garage, didn't put a saddle in where the new attached garage met my second story, and were going to pour the floors and aprons in mid-January. Now, I've called them on everything and they haven't complained about fixing it (everything except the lumber was the general contractor's fault), but COME ON.

 

[Parker36]

That is just sloppy. How is he still in business?

 

[ohiobrewtus]

sounds like standard SOP for a GC to me. Unfortunatley for people like you and me, these folks live in their own little worlds that do not include the realm of space and time.

 

[MikeFlynn74]

yea well- One of the GCs up here took 12 houses for 6 mil and declared Bankruptcy causing all the subs to sue the people having the houses built. On top of that the banks too possession of their houses. And everything in it. Homeboy turned in his bond and left town and the Attorney General said there is nothing he can do.

****ing scumbags.

 

[srm775]

So, after *checks calendar* 5 months of stop and go progress on the two garages (one attached and one detached) I'm having built I got a visit from the siding subcontractor today. Apparently the general contractor has not payed him for my job or, at least, 3 other jobs. (The same goes for the other trades, apparently) Sooooo... unless he gets paid he's going to put a lien on my house.

Perhaps I'm wrong on this, but I wouldn't think the subcontractor would have any standing to file a lien against you. I would think that the subcontractors remedy for payment would have to be with the contractor since that's who his "contract" is with and not directly with you.

 

[CBBaron]

Perhaps I'm wrong on this, but I wouldn't think the subcontractor would have any standing to file a lien against you. I would think that the subcontractors remedy for payment would have to be with the contractor since that's who his "contract" is with and not directly with you.

You would think, but apparently its not so simple.
A coworker of mine is having a house built. The house is about 80-90% complete. However the GC is about to go bankrupt and hasn't paid a whole bunch of the subs and suppliers, despite being paid for that portion of the work. So now the liens are piling up on the house, the GC is off the project and the bank will not allow any more access to the construction loan. So my coworker has to finish the house out of his pocket. His lawyer has assured him that because he has already paid for the work and materials to this point, he cannot be held liable. However the bank also originally told him the same, but now they will not allow him access to the construction loans until the liens are cleared up. Because the original GC is bankrupt it is unlikely the sub and suppliers will see much of their money, so i am not sure what happens to the liens at that time.

Good luck. Make sure you do not pay the GC any more money until he clears up these liens. And I would be vary wary of his finances.

Craig

 

[david_42]

the subcontractor would have any standing to file a lien against you

Yes, they can. Unless your contract with the GC is written to exclude this option.

Many GCs are just older nail bangers or even worse, plumbers, and have absolutely no idea how to run a business.

 

[Evan!]

As an architect, I deal with some pretty terrible contractors. I have project manuals and specifications that are a few inches thick, and are very explicit (as are the AIA-A201 General Conditions) as to the roles and requirements of all parties. Yet many GC's will just ignore this at will, and get indignant when I call them on it. We've got this terrible contractor on an animal shelter we're finishing up now. The construction time that they bid was 240 days. We're well over 1000 days now. We've had to put 3 stop-work orders on them, they've changed project managers and job superintendants more times than I can count, and now they're bankrupt and the surety is having to pay to finish the project. They do stuff just because that's what they're used to, and when I point out that the contract requires otherwise, they act as if I'm just being a dick about it. No, dude, YOU signed the contract! For instance, we require that they have a particular soil compaction underneath all slabs. When they weren't able to achieve that compaction, we pointed to the part in the specifications which spelled out how to remediate the subgrade to get the compaction necessary. Well, the GC's owner just throws up his arms and says "aww, come on, whatchoo got, elephants walkin on this sidewalk?" That. Doesn't. Matter. You signed the contract. Abide by it.

 

[GreenwoodRover]

It kills me when I see these types of threads.
Too many people without the knowledge to successfully manage their GC's coupled with too many shady GC's = A mess for most people.

Three Basic Rules from a GC to anyone thinking of building anything.
1. Never pay up front
1a. Only pay for materials stored onsite.
1b. If prepaymet is required for long lead items (cabinets, light fixtures etc) pay the supplier directly.
2. Always trade your check/payment for partial GC and sub waivers in the ammount of the check. No waivers from the GC and subs = no check to Mr. GC.
3. Although is can cost some additional money, always engage a third party (architect, Owner's Rep, etc.) to be a check/go between between you and your GC. For 1-3% of the total cost you will save money and time and break even.

 

[Evan!]

It kills me when I see these types of threads.
Too many people without the knowledge to successfully manage their GC's coupled with too many shady GC's = A mess for most people.

Three Basic Rules from a GC to anyone thinking of building anything.
1. Never pay up front
1a. Only pay for materials stored onsite.
1b. If prepaymet is required for long lead items (cabinets, light fixtures etc) pay the supplier directly.
2. Always trade your check/payment for partial GC and sub waivers in the ammount of the check. No waivers from the GC and subs = no check to Mr. GC.
3. Although is can cost some additional money, always engage a third party (architect, Owner's Rep, etc.) to be a check/go between between you and your GC. For 1-3% of the total cost you will save money and time and break even.

Thank you! Lien waivers FTW!

 

[GreenwoodRover]

^+1 to Evan.
As A GC, if you don't know what's in the contract you're screwed and stupid. You're called a General CONTRACTOR for a reason. You're not a General Constructor.
In construction, as in life in a lawyer filled society, the contract is everything. Any gray area will be used to the benefit of whoever has the deepest pockets in terms of lawyers. For a GC in commercial stuff the Owner has the power and money. For a GC in singlefamily residential The GC has the money and power.

 

[GearBeer]

From what I understand putting the lien on my house is primarily a way to put pressure on the GC to pay them. Unfortunately, it puts me in the middle.

Fortunately everything's turned out ok, so far. I'll definitely be getting lien waivers before he gets another dime from me.

It's a little late to involve a typical third party, but I might have one involved very soon... called a lawyer.

 

[menschmaschine]

I've worked with many GCs. Heck I even worked FOR one for 3 years as a PM. The bottom line in my opinion is that construction can be a lucrative career and, aside from mechanicals, it requires NO education or certifications. Any jackass can form an LLC and get a business license and be a framer or roofer or sider or mason, no qualifications required. Not even high school.

But they're pretty much the reason I have a job right now. I'm cleaning up their mess from the boom.

 

[StoutFan]

Contractors suck, but not all of them. My family searched hard to find a good one for the homestead up north. He still pops in 10+ years later to see if there is anything wrong when he is driving by. Gotta love Ben, great guy. Then I got screwed by a plumber who f-ed up my master bath tub and left. Did not pay him, but my tub is f-ed. You win some, you lose some.

 

[jpsloan]

Speaking as a draftsman who works for subcontractors, I've seen so many of my employers/clients who have elected to cut the GC out of the process entirely, and work straight with homeowners. The reason is generally because GC's they have worked for have mastered the art of delaying payment.

Of course, that said, I'm dealing with some subs right now who are pushing the 30 day window to pay me. So...

 

[Evan!]

Yeah, the obvious problem with getting lien waivers at the time of payment is that it requires the GC to essentially front the money in between when they pay the sub and when you pay them. With a normal, competent GC, this is not a problem, but with some jackleg (like the one I mentioned above), their dumbasses are living paycheck to paycheck, so they always want to do retroactive (one month late) lien waivers. That's usually alright, as long as you keep them in check...it just leaves you in the lurch for one month's payment at any given time. So if you end up in a situation where they disappear and there's no surety to pick up the pieces, you might end up having paid the GC for it once, then paying the sub again.

 

[alex_wilkosz]

ahhh the reason to become a Desing-Build architect and skip the DBB (design-bid-build) process.

Being a graduate architecture student at Illinois and having worked in a real firm i understand this problem.

Greenwood....know of any architecture jobs available in Chicagoland for this summer? I need employment

 

[TexLaw]

Yes, they can. Unless your contract with the GC is written to exclude this option.

Nope, it doesn't work that way, either. You cannot agree to waive a third party's rights. If you got waivers from all the subs, then you're fine. However, the subs' rights to file a materialman's lien (or whatever it may be called in your state), are not waived because the GC says so. As a few others have pointed out, the GC only is a contractor and only contracts with the subs. The GC is not the subs' agent and has no authority to bind the subs in any way.

Now, the GC may agree to indemnify you against actions from the subs (in your dreams), but even that is not much to bank on. If the GC turns into a turnip, that indemnity is only good for wiping your nose (or another part of your body). You can't get blood from a turnip, right?


TL

 

[neuron555]

We've had a couple big projects done (kitchen, family room addition) and while our GCs were good guys and got everything done on time and right, we had the arrangement that he would recommend the sub or the supplier, and we would pay them or order directly. Kept everybody honest and there were clear lines of responsibility.

 

[Saccharomyces]

It's a little late to involve a typical third party, but I might have one involved very soon... called a lawyer.

I wouldn't deal with any of these scumbags without introducing them to two people first:

1) My attorney.
2) Guido.

 

[Fingers]

This is why I started doing all my own work when I liquidated my rentals. For those jobs that were too time consuming for me to do myself, I acted as my own general contractor. Everyone got paid and everyone made money. I feel sorry for people who are unable to do these things themselves. They have no protection whatsoever and are as likely as not to get screwed. We really need some regulation to protect consumers.

 

[GearBeer]

My problem is the time. I don't have much during the week, due to my commute, and I don't generally find myself at home on the weekends. Which leaves me in the old "more money than time" situation.

However, I have some good news. There's a searchable Michigan law link on the State Attorney General's page.

Act 497 of 1980 is entitled the Construction Lien Act.

Section 570.1107.6 reads:

If the real property of an owner or lessee is subject to multiple construction liens, the sum of the construction liens shall not exceed the amount the owner or lessee agreed to pay the person with whom he or she contracted for the improvement as modified by all additions, deletions, and other amendments, less payments made by or on behalf of the owner or lessee, pursuant to either a contractor's sworn statement or a waiver of lien, in accordance with this act.