When to determine if adding yeast nutrient to yeast is necessary?

[Bellycose]

I had brewed twice and both fermentations were poor. It frustrates me that my fermentation is having issues at the same point of the brewing stage. And I can't find the problem to improve/troubleshoot. There's no contamination on the final product, temperature was within acceptable threshold, and I refrigerated the yeast only to keep them viable. Could it be that I am not preparing any nutrient? I simply purchased liquid yeast and pour them directly into the wort.

The first brew was a dark SMASH beer style that was slow during fermentation. It had taken four weeks for fermentation to finish. I had expected two weeks. To remedy, I simply waited until the bubbles from my airlock had ceased.

My second brew was a lighter SMASH Beer style and had a stuck fermentation, caused by low count of viable yeast cells. It became unstuck after I had added another set of yeast to the wort.

Regardless, I doubt and believe I need to use yeast nutrient to set my yeast cell count to better the odds for fermenting the wort. If I do need to used yeast nutrient, how to know what to purchase or at least show me a link of information to read about it. Appreciate your time reading this.

 

[Bobby_M]

It's more that you don't seem to have a firm grasp of using liquid yeast. If you don't want to use calculators to determine the require cell count to pitch and purchase multiple packs or make yeast starters, you will have much better success with dry yeast. A single pack of liquid yeast is vry rarely enough when it's a couple weeks old. Once it's maybe 2 months old, it's never enough. Nutrient does not restore cell count. Only a starter will do that.

 

[Pennine]

What goes into a dark smash recipe?

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

What goes into a dark smash recipe?

Several Malts and Several Hops?

 

[DBhomebrew]

Or maybe 100% Munich?

 

[BeerNsteadofH2O]

You haven't provided alot of information, in order to.help, we need more of the specifics, actual temp. Readings, PH,readings,expected OG, FG.etc.. was this an all grain or extract..many things factor in, and patients is one of them..provide some specifics so we can help.

 

[Bellycose]

Several Malts and Several Hops?

Haha.

 

[Bellycose]

You haven't provided alot of information, in order to.help, we need more of the specifics, actual temp. Readings, PH,readings,expected OG, FG.etc.. was this an all grain or extract..many things factor in, and patients is one of them..provide some specifics so we can help.

It was an all-grain Single Malt and Single Hop. Was attempting to make a rendition of Sierra Nevada IPA as a SMASH beer to see if my brewing process is good enough or has to be redesigned. This was my first brew experience and had the ingredients:

• 10lbs of Marris Pale Malt (2.8 L)
• 4 oz of Cascade 5.5%, using the 60 30 15 rules.

Temperature for mashing was 149 to 152 degrees Fahrenheit for 60 minutes and starting volume was 7 gallons of water. By boiling, I was at 5.5 gallons of wort. I don't have a pH reader. But I do have a hydrometer.

• OG: 1.052 (Oct. 9th, 2022) at 79-degree Fahrenheit before transfer to fermentation bucket.
• Final: 1.011 (Nov. 3rd, 2022) at 72-degree Fahrenheit before bottling.

After boiling and cold crashing, used a siphon to transfer into a fermentation bucket. Then I add one yeast pack into the wort. Sealed and wait for a day or two for expected bubbles.

 

[Closet Fermenter]

What yeast are you using?

 

[Bobby_M]

Nothing immediately wrong with your brewing process though if your mash was at 149 for a significant portion of that hour, you may not have gotten complete conversion simply because the process works slower at those lower temps. Sometimes I see a pretty remarkable gravity boost in the 60-75minute phase of a cooler mash. Either way, you got a reasonable starting gravity.

I double down on my comment about yeast cell count. There is a vast difference between a pack of liquid yeast packaged last week and one packaged 4 months ago.

Here's an example of a 2-week old pack of something like Wyeast that starts at 100B cells at packaging. It's still calling for 2 packs (and it's still just under recommended cells).

Same yeast, 4 months old:

The only scenario where one pack would have been idea is if it were either Omega or Imperial (start at about 200B cells) and it was only a few weeks old MAX.

 

[Bellycose]

What yeast are you using?

WLP001 - Chico Strain for Pale Ale.

 

[Bellycose]

Nothing immediately wrong with your brewing process though if your mash was at 149 for a significant portion of that hour, you may not have gotten complete conversion simply because the process works slower at those lower temps. Sometimes I see a pretty remarkable gravity boost in the 60-75minute phase of a cooler mash. Either way, you got a reasonable starting gravity.

I double down on my comment about yeast cell count. There is a vast difference between a pack of liquid yeast packaged last week and one packaged 4 months ago.

Here's an example of a 2-week old pack of something like Wyeast that starts at 100B cells at packaging. It's still calling for 2 packs (and it's still just under recommended cells).

View attachment 826621

Same yeast, 4 months old:


View attachment 826622


The only scenario where one pack would have been idea is if it were either Omega or Imperial (start at about 200B cells) and it was only a few weeks old MAX.

WHOA, 16 packs! - 4 months old. And thanks for the advice. I will start reading into dry yeast since I had never consider using them before.

 

[Bobby_M]

Don't get me wrong, in many cases I prefer the results of liquid yeast but I would say that the simpler, cheaper, more pragmatic use of a pack of dry yeast is much preferred to a struggling slow crawl of older liquid yeast. It's just that the slight increase in quality for liquid yeast comes at a higher purchase or labor price in the case of making a 1 liter yeast starter. That's really the way to deal with aging yeast packs rather than buying 16 packs.

Note that if your WLP001 was the new next gen pack with the orange twist off cap (and it would have to be since they converted to them several months ago), this is more like it. Still 2 packs, but using one isn't the same tragic underpitch as the previous example. If it didn't have the orange cap, the pack was probably 5+ months old.

 

[hottpeper13]

I also add it to the ones I repitch,and I double it with the Kveik strains.

 

[whattabrau]

Beer (wort) does not need added nutrients if you're pitching new yeast. I have yeasts I have repitched dozens of times over several years without adding any nutrients (except zinc which is only needed from generation ~10 onwards) and they ferment 18-20 plato worts and beyond just fine.

If you ever venture into wine or mead or seltzer, there the situation is the opposite, as in every fermentation benefits from adding nutrients. The amount is even fairly well-defined and calculatable as long as you know/guess how much nutrients you got from the base ingredients (trivial to guess for seltzer, easy for mead, a bit more difficult for wine).

I don't think you need nutrient, but rather, as was already suggested, healthier yeast via either a starter or dry yeast. I'm a fan of dry yeast, and haven't bought any non-sour liquid yeast this decade.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

Adding yeast nutrient to yeast is necessary when working with low-nutrient worts or high-gravity fermentations to promote healthy yeast growth, fermentation efficiency, and flavor development in the final product.

Not sure if I should welcome you to HBT, but this answer sounds like it came from a bot.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Beer (wort) does not need added nutrients if you're pitching new yeast.

There is an "edge" case (which may or may not be important) for those who brew with RO/distilled water. Apparently neither RO/distilled water nor wort contains zinc, and yeast works better with a trace amounts of zinc.

Zinc and RO Water | Bru'n Water (link).

This home brew stack exchange article (link) from 2014 offers some ideas for sources of zinc other than yeast nutrient.

Finally, Lallemand has a "Best Practices: Yeast Nutrients for Brewing" that includes performance comparisions (control vs two of their products) for 1st generation and 8th generation pitches.

 

[MaxStout]

There is an "edge" case (which may or may not be important) for those who brew with RO/distilled water. Apparently neither RO/distilled water nor wort contains zinc, and yeast works better with a trace amounts of zinc.

Zinc and RO Water | Bru'n Water (link).

This home brew stack exchange article (link) from 2014 offers some ideas for sources of zinc other than yeast nutrient.

Finally, Lallemand has a "Best Practices: Yeast Nutrients for Brewing" that includes performance comparisions (control vs two of their products) for 1st generation and 8th generation pitches.

This.

If you want to be sure, 1/2 tsp. of this at the end of the boil. Inexpensive peace of mind.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

bot what ?

LLM generated content.

An earlier reply matches a number of the heuristics that many of us are using before deciding how to interact with that content.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Inexpensive peace of mind.

"cheap insurance" is also another phrase I've seen to describe it.

It's also possible that the quality improvements in dry yeast make additional nutrients unnecessary. The Lallemand "best practices" appears offer some evidence of that.

 

[MaxStout]

"cheap insurance" is also another phrase I've seen to describe it.

It's also possible that the quality improvements in dry yeast make additional nutrients unnecessary. The Lallemand "best practices" appears offer some evidence of that.

I've heard that, too, though I haven't read the specifics. Do the mfrs pack enough nutrients for the full fermentation cycle, or just enough to wake it up? I like to add a little nutrient just to make sure.

I've also had good results rehydrating dry yeast using Go-Ferm. Fermentation takes off in about 12 hours or so. The few times I've dry-pitched, the lag times were 36 hours or more. I don't like waiting that long while other microbes have a chance to gain a foothold.

 

[whattabrau]

There is an "edge" case (which may or may not be important) for those who brew with RO/distilled water. Apparently neither RO/distilled water nor wort contains zinc, and yeast works better with a trace amounts of zinc.

Yes, I mentioned zinc in the next sentence. Tap water does not contain enough zinc either. Well, maybe some tap water does, but at least the one I have does not, as in I have observed and fixed the zinc deficiency problem, but it starts only n generations in.

 

[MaxStout]

In the old days, when beer was brewed in copper kettles, the hot wort would leach enough zinc from the alloys.

Now, with stainless or aluminum kettles, we need to add a little zinc. The yeasties only need a few mg, but it's essential.

 

[whattabrau]

Now, with stainless or aluminum kettles, we need to add a little zinc. The yeasties only need a few mg, but it's essential.

0.12mg/L available to yeast (not gross addition), according to Kunze. So, "not much". Good luck measuring under 0.01g for a 5gal batch ;-)

My understanding (based on empirical observation) is that it may also come from the yeast itself, and that's what I was alluding to when I said "*new* yeast".

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I've also had good results rehydrating dry yeast using Go-Ferm. Fermentation takes off in about 12 hours or so.

Can you outline your process (including amount of Go-Ferm)?

 

[whattabrau]

I've also had good results rehydrating dry yeast using Go-Ferm. Fermentation takes off in about 12 hours or so. The few times I've dry-pitched, the lag times were 36 hours or more. I don't like waiting that long while other microbes have a chance to gain a foothold.

I run a bit of wort from the sparge into a flask and let the yeast rehydrate in that. I can't imagine Go-Ferm performing any better, though my experience with it is only from wine&mead.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Good luck measuring under 0.01g

There are scales, market for jewelry and/or shot-gun shell reloading that will accurately weigh amounts under 0.01g. I bought a pair of them 5 (or more) years ago; other than replacing batteries every couple of years, they just work

 

[MaxStout]

Can you outline your process (including amount of Go-Ferm)?

Sanitize some water in a flask or beaker, about 10 ml for each gram dry yeast.
Add Go-Ferm to the hot water, per their instructions (1.25g GoFerm/gram yeast, IIRC). Mix until dissolved.
Cool to ~ 80-ish, pour in yeast, do not stir. Let it sit about 15 minutes.
Pitch.

I realize GoFerm was developed for wine, but the beer yeasties seem to respond well to it.