Process to add yeast nutrient later in fermentation?

Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

kXb

Supporting Member
HBT Supporter
Joined
Mar 21, 2013
Messages
66
Reaction score
9
Location
Austin
I'd posted about a week ago a question I have about my cider that is slow to ferment. As of today, it is still slowly fermenting away at a temp in the mid-range of the SafCider yeast I used. Folks in this forum had suggested a few things, one of which is get some yeast nutrient. I finally got some LD Carlson yeast nutrient (DAP) from my LHBS. The crystals seem HUGE. Should I dissolve it in something first? The package says 1t/gallon which sounds like quite a lot (5t to my 5g batch). Is that overkill for a cider that should come in at around 6-7% ABV??
 
I'd dissolve it in 1/2 cup hot water then cool it before adding. I haven't used that brand in a while but seem to remember that is the amount I used. Are you checking the sg to see where it is fermentation wise? Slow isn't necessarily a bad thing, can help retain flavor. If the sg is still dropping, I'd just let it go if it was mine. Good luck!
 
Both Jolicoeur and Lea suggest 50ppm of DAP per 0.010 SG drop required. Normally AJ would have enough nutrient to fully ferment cider, however for a number of reasons if it is low in nutrient it can stall. Half a gram or 1/10 teaspoon should be more than enough for a gallon stalled at say 1.020, so 1 tsp sounds like overkill.

I simply add DAP straight into the cider and stir. It should be about the consistency of sugar.
 
Dap too late in fermentation will not be absorbed and metabolized fully by the yeast. The remainder will make the brew undrinkable. So you better know that it's not too late to add your dap.
 
Dap too late in fermentation will not be absorbed and metabolized fully by the yeast. The remainder will make the brew undrinkable. So you better know that it's not too late to add your dap.
Today it is down to 1.04 from OG of 1.063 on 1/19. Chalkyt - Glad to know the sugar like crystals are normal and they will dissolve on their own.

Miraculix - what would be too late in fermentation? My target is in the medium sweet range of 1.002-1.012 (I'm currently at 1.04)
 
I am honestly not sure, could be still ok. I do not use DAP for the given reasons, I use Fermaid O and only in meads. I do not use nutrients in cider. ...but I only make cider very rarely if at all.
 
Both Jolicoeur and Lea suggest 50ppm of DAP per 0.010 SG drop required. Normally AJ would have enough nutrient to fully ferment cider, however for a number of reasons if it is low in nutrient it can stall. Half a gram or 1/10 teaspoon should be more than enough for a gallon stalled at say 1.020, so 1 tsp sounds like overkill.

I simply add DAP straight into the cider and stir. It should be about the consistency of sugar.
Chalkyt, do you think I still have time to add DAP based on my OG and where it is right now? I don't want to ruin it!
 
Adding nutrient at any time is O.K. as long as you don't over-do it and have too much unused nutrient as suggested above. There are some opinions that if nutrient is needed it is best added after primary fermentation so there isn't a "rush" of nutrient that leads to fermentation taking off too quickly. "Low (temperature) and slow (fermentation) is the way to go".

Firstly, some basics, then how to do it. The basics are that yeast need YAN (Yeast Assimilable Nitrogen) for fermentation and most apples inherently have enough YAN for the yeast to complete fermentation. However, there are exceptions. Some apples are simply low in YAN (because of their type, or they are late maturing, from old unfertilised trees, or "shop" juice stored for too long, etc.) So, fermentation can stall from lack of nutrient, especially if the yeast is a high nutrient dependent type, as is the case with some ale yeasts.

DAP is 20% nitrogen ("YAN") and as mentioned in an earlier post, studies have shown that about 50ppm of DAP (plus ideally a small amount of thiamine, which should already be in the juice) is needed to ferment SG 0.010. So, to add nutrient (DAP) late in the fermentation you need to calculate just how much DAP is needed for the remaining fermentation to avoid adding too much.

You can see from this that a teaspoon of DAP per gallon is "overkill". You mention 1t per gallon which I read as 1 teaspoon... is that what you meant? Most of the DAP available here suggests something like a gram (1/5 teaspoon) per gallon. I did find some LD Carlson DAP on Amazon, and the pack recommends 1/2 to 3/4 grams per gallon.

The how to do it involves micro-dosing with nutrient if the fermentation stalls. In your case, the fermentation seems to be progressing O.K. albeit a bit slow. You have gone from 1.065 to 1.040 in two weeks which is not unusual. You could reasonably expect to be down to your target of below 1.010 in a few more weeks. Keep checking progress and only worry about adding nutrient (DAP) if fermentation stalls.

Just as an example, let us assume that your cider stalls due to nutrient deficiency at 1.015 (a typical stall figure by the way). You will then need to micro-dose with nutrients to progress to and stop at say 1.005. At the accepted rate of 50ppm of DAP for a 10 gravity point drop, you would need 50 ppm or 0.2 gram in your 5 gallons of cider. This could best be described as "a bit of a sprinkle"... and such a small quantity is quite hard to measure accurately.

One way to deal with the measuring difficulty is to mix 2 grams (a bit less than 1/2 teaspoon) of DAP into 100 ml of water, juice or cider which makes a solution of 0.02g of DAP per ml. Then put 10 ml of this solution (which is 0.2g of DAP) into your gallon of cider. Clearly micro dosing is much easier with large volumes of cider, but if you aren't too worried about precisely determining where fermentation will stop again, this should work O.K.

I must say that if I have to restart a stalled fermentation I just add a pinch of DAP which then restarts fermentation down to 1.000 (not terribly scientific or precise, but it works). I then increase SG with sugar or juice to a target figure for sweetness and carbonation and bottle. Hot-water pasteurising at the right time, results in stable semi-sweet carbonated cider.

I hope this helps.
 
Last edited:
Adding nutrient at any time is O.K. as long as you don't over-do it and have too much unused nutrient as suggested above. There are some opinions that if nutrient is needed it is best added after primary fermentation so there isn't a "rush" of nutrient that leads to fermentation taking off too quickly. "Low (temperature) and slow (fermentation) is the way to go".

Firstly, some basics, then how to do it. The basics are that yeast need YAN (Yeast Assimilable Nitrogen) for fermentation and most apples inherently have enough YAN for the yeast to complete fermentation. However, there are exceptions. Some apples are simply low in YAN (because of their type, or they are late maturing, from old unfertilised trees, or "shop" juice stored for too long, etc.) So, fermentation can stall from lack of nutrient, especially if the yeast is a high nutrient dependent type, as is the case with some ale yeasts.

DAP is 20% nitrogen ("YAN") and as mentioned in an earlier post, studies have shown that about 50ppm of DAP (plus ideally a small amount of thiamine, which should already be in the juice) is needed to ferment SG 0.010. So, to add nutrient (DAP) late in the fermentation you need to calculate just how much DAP is needed for the remaining fermentation to avoid adding too much.

You can see from this that a teaspoon of DAP per gallon is "overkill". You mention 1t per gallon which I read as 1 teaspoon... is that what you meant? Most of the DAP available here suggests something like a gram (1/5 teaspoon) per gallon. I did find some LD Carlson DAP on Amazon, and the pack recommends 1/2 to 3/4 grams per gallon.

The how to do it involves micro-dosing with nutrient if the fermentation stalls. In your case, the fermentation seems to be progressing O.K. albeit a bit slow. You have gone from 1.065 to 1.040 in two weeks which is not unusual. You could reasonably expect to be down to your target of below 1.010 in a few more weeks. Keep checking progress and only worry about adding nutrient (DAP) if fermentation stalls.

Just as an example, let us assume that your cider stalls due to nutrient deficiency at 1.015 (a typical stall figure by the way). You will then need to micro-dose with nutrients to progress to and stop at say 1.005. At the accepted rate of 50ppm of DAP for a 10 gravity point drop, you would need 50 ppm or 0.2 gram in your 5 gallons of cider. This could best be described as "a bit of a sprinkle"... and such a small quantity is quite hard to measure accurately.

One way to deal with the measuring difficulty is to mix 2 grams (a bit less than 1/2 teaspoon) of DAP into 100 ml of water, juice or cider which makes a solution of 0.02g of DAP per ml. Then put 10 ml of this solution (which is 0.2g of DAP) into your gallon of cider. Clearly micro dosing is much easier with large volumes of cider, but if you aren't too worried about precisely determining where fermentation will stop again, this should work O.K.

I must say that if I have to restart a stalled fermentation I just add a pinch of DAP which then restarts fermentation down to 1.000 (not terribly scientific or precise, but it works). I then increase SG with sugar or juice to a target figure for sweetness and carbonation and bottle. Hot-water pasteurising at the right time, results in stable semi-sweet carbonated cider.

I hope this helps.
Brilliant, thanks. I've learned something today.
 
Adding nutrient at any time is O.K. as long as you don't over-do it and have too much unused nutrient as suggested above. There are some opinions that if nutrient is needed it is best added after primary fermentation so there isn't a "rush" of nutrient that leads to fermentation taking off too quickly. "Low (temperature) and slow (fermentation) is the way to go".

Firstly, some basics, then how to do it. The basics are that yeast need YAN (Yeast Assimilable Nitrogen) for fermentation and most apples inherently have enough YAN for the yeast to complete fermentation. However, there are exceptions. Some apples are simply low in YAN (because of their type, or they are late maturing, from old unfertilised trees, or "shop" juice stored for too long, etc.) So, fermentation can stall from lack of nutrient, especially if the yeast is a high nutrient dependent type, as is the case with some ale yeasts.

DAP is 20% nitrogen ("YAN") and as mentioned in an earlier post, studies have shown that about 50ppm of DAP (plus ideally a small amount of thiamine, which should already be in the juice) is needed to ferment SG 0.010. So, to add nutrient (DAP) late in the fermentation you need to calculate just how much DAP is needed for the remaining fermentation to avoid adding too much.

You can see from this that a teaspoon of DAP per gallon is "overkill". You mention 1t per gallon which I read as 1 teaspoon... is that what you meant? Most of the DAP available here suggests something like a gram (1/5 teaspoon) per gallon. I did find some LD Carlson DAP on Amazon, and the pack recommends 1/2 to 3/4 grams per gallon.

The how to do it involves micro-dosing with nutrient if the fermentation stalls. In your case, the fermentation seems to be progressing O.K. albeit a bit slow. You have gone from 1.065 to 1.040 in two weeks which is not unusual. You could reasonably expect to be down to your target of below 1.010 in a few more weeks. Keep checking progress and only worry about adding nutrient (DAP) if fermentation stalls.

Just as an example, let us assume that your cider stalls due to nutrient deficiency at 1.015 (a typical stall figure by the way). You will then need to micro-dose with nutrients to progress to and stop at say 1.005. At the accepted rate of 50ppm of DAP for a 10 gravity point drop, you would need 50 ppm or 0.2 gram in your 5 gallons of cider. This could best be described as "a bit of a sprinkle"... and such a small quantity is quite hard to measure accurately.

One way to deal with the measuring difficulty is to mix 2 grams (a bit less than 1/2 teaspoon) of DAP into 100 ml of water, juice or cider which makes a solution of 0.02g of DAP per ml. Then put 10 ml of this solution (which is 0.2g of DAP) into your gallon of cider. Clearly micro dosing is much easier with large volumes of cider, but if you aren't too worried about precisely determining where fermentation will stop again, this should work O.K.

I must say that if I have to restart a stalled fermentation I just add a pinch of DAP which then restarts fermentation down to 1.000 (not terribly scientific or precise, but it works). I then increase SG with sugar or juice to a target figure for sweetness and carbonation and bottle. Hot-water pasteurising at the right time, results in stable semi-sweet carbonated cider.

I hope this helps.
Excellent and thorough explanation. Thank you so much for this!!! I am going to do nothing for now since progress is being made, just not at the pace I'm used to. If it does stall out, I will be very judicious in adding DAP.

And yes, the 1t meant 1 teaspoon. The LD Carlson Yeast Nutrient I purchased does indeed have that as the recommended dosage per gallon. I am going to save your response for future reference!
 
Dap too late in fermentation will not be absorbed and metabolized fully by the yeast. The remainder will make the brew undrinkable. So you better know that it's not too late to add your dap.
That applies to stuff like dap/fermaid-k and not so much to Fermaid-o.

You can also use boiled bread yeast…
 
As a follow up, my cider has now reached my targeted FG with no action on my part! Off to cold crashing now.
I hope your target is 0.990? If not let it keep going until it’s stable for a few days at least.
 
Back
Top