Weird and probably stupid cold crash question

[toddo97]

It's a sucky question for sure. I suppose the easiest thing to do would be put in the bung before complete fermentation is done to get positive pressure, then there be no sucking.

Unless I put it in too early and caused a geyser in my fermenter. That would really suck

 

[AZCoolerBrewer]

Well, science, for one thing. You don’t need much oxygen exposure to dull some of the fresh malt flavors in bright beer. A bit more than that and you’ll start introducing notes of sherry and wet cardboard. There’s a few styles that benefit from slight oxidation (namely traditional Flanders red and gueuze), but it’s microscopic on the brewing scale and those brewers still routinely dump overly acetic barrels. NEIPA is a very sensitive style due to all the hop compounds in the wort — I’d love to hear someone who has successfully bottle conditioned a NEIPA to come forward with their process.

The thing about oxidation in homebrewing is you probably won’t recognize the symptoms until you taste a brew that’s not affected. I routinely had issues with my gravity samples tasting fantastic, but depreciating after less than 2 weeks in the bottle. I just assumed that’s how all homebrew tasted — until I started making some simple changes to my brewing process. I won’t pretend that my track record has been perfect...I recently dumped a golden sour due to excessive pear notes (ethyl acetate). But at least I can recognize the symptoms now.

Boogeyman, check
Confirmation bias, check
Herd mentality, check
“science”, check

Ready for O2 exposure Captain!

Sorry for being all snarky, I’m not pointing this at you personally, I know that oxidation is a thing and made a post about a Barleywine I made recently where I could see the effects. Its just frustrating to me when one is trying to improve and the information out there is so subjective.

Even in Brülosophy exBeeriments the reaults are cloudy so to speak. Here’s the one on oxidation http://brulosophy.com/2016/12/19/po...normal-vs-high-oxidation-exbeeriment-results/

 

[Blazinlow86]

I only cold crash heavily hopped IPAs, and only to compact hop debris, and I have a method to keep O2 form getting in. Absolutely no point in cold crashing if you keg. If you desire to have perfectly clear beer to give a keg to friends you'll need to cold crash for a lot longer than the typical 1 day and it'll be easier and make better beer if you do it in a keg then transfer to another, liquid purged, keg. At least in my experience.

Again if you dont want the sediment in your keg then crashing in the fermenter is obviously the better way to go.sure you could rerack again but that's just adding another step l/ transfer. I'd love to hear how leaving the sediment in the keg makes better beer though. Definitely easier but better? Cheers

 

[ApolloSimcoe]

Its just frustrating to me when one is trying to improve and the information out there is so subjective.

This right here is one of the reasons this is a kickin' hobby. You can try different techniques to see what works best for you. Ask a 100 home brewers and you'll likely get a 100 different answers/suggestions

 

[divrack]

Boogeyman, check
Confirmation bias, check
Herd mentality, check
“science”, check

Ready for O2 exposure Captain!

Sorry for being all snarky, I’m not pointing this at you personally, I know that oxidation is a thing and made a post about a Barleywine I made recently where I could see the effects. Its just frustrating to me when one is trying to improve and the information out there is so subjective.

Even in Brülosophy exBeeriments the reaults are cloudy so to speak. Here’s the one on oxidation http://brulosophy.com/2016/12/19/po...normal-vs-high-oxidation-exbeeriment-results/

A panel of brulosophy tasters failed to meet statistical significance in identifying a beer fermented with dry yeast at low pitching rate from the third mobile infantry division of the guadalupian armed forced. Those who picked the correct sample filled to correctly identify that one was a beer while the others were at war

 

[GPP33]

Again if you dont want the sediment in your keg then crashing in the fermenter is obviously the better way to go.sure you could rerack again but that's just adding another step l/ transfer. I'd love to hear how leaving the sediment in the keg makes better beer though. Definitely easier but better? Cheers

I'd bet the whole keg of beer that sediment in the keg is better than cold crashing without CO2 protection. Do I have evidence? No, but I'm hedging my bets.

 

[day_trippr]

Regarding yet another no conclusion exbeeriment....what if both beers were oxidized?

 

[Dland]

It's a sucky question for sure. I suppose the easiest thing to do would be put in the bung before complete fermentation is done to get positive pressure, then there be no sucking.

And then you are on the road to spunding.

 

[Blazinlow86]

I'd bet the whole keg of beer that sediment in the keg is better than cold crashing without CO2 protection. Do I have evidence? No, but I'm hedging my bets.

I would NOW agree with your statement as you now mentioned you were speaking about crashing incorrectly vs not crashing at all. In the post I referenced you left that part out. I was thinking who would rather have sediment than no sediment in there finished beer lol. Cheers

 

[GPP33]

I would NOW agree with your statement as you now mentioned you were speaking about crashing incorrectly vs not crashing at all. In the post I referenced you left that part out. I was thinking who would rather have sediment than no sediment in there finished beer lol. Cheers

I'll add the caveat that it's entirely possible some beers are actually better oxidized. There are styles which have certain flavors which may be a direct result of oxidation (I'm certainly not an expert but barrel aged beers come to mind). I made a Scotch which ended up heavily oxidized due to pumping a clogged siphon, after a year the sherry hints and malt flavors were out of this world, I fear I'll never make a dark strong beer that good again. Along those lines I'm sure there's some where it wont matter and some where it'll destroy the beer in short order. At the end of the day though I'd rather have a solid oxygen free (it'll never be 100%) process which I can adjust on my terms than a process which impacts the beer in an unknown way because I'm completely ignoring a very real and important variable.

 

[Blazinlow86]

I'll add the caveat that it's entirely possible some beers are actually better oxidized. There are styles which have certain flavors which may be a direct result of oxidation (I'm certainly not an expert but barrel aged beers come to mind). I made a Scotch which ended up heavily oxidized due to pumping a clogged siphon, after a year the sherry hints and malt flavors were out of this world, I fear I'll never make a dark strong beer that good again. Along those lines I'm sure there's some where it wont matter and some where it'll destroy the beer in short order. At the end of the day though I'd rather have a solid oxygen free (it'll never be 100%) process which I can adjust on my terms than a process which impacts the beer in an unknown way because I'm completely ignoring a very real and important variable.

Definitely possible. I've always aimed to avoid any oxidization but admittedly have not done any barrel aging. I actually go a step further than crashing in the fermenter and also carb in the fermenter. I hate sediment in the keg. Doing it this way leaves basically nothing behind. I've attached a photo of a pretty hoppy wheat beer that was cold crashed for 3 days before transferring to the kegs. Cheers

 

[AZCoolerBrewer]

Regarding yet another no conclusion exbeeriment....what if both beers were oxidized?

Many in this exBeeriment commented that the beer was boring, which to me is kind of what people say happens to an oxidized beer, thay is it looses its malty character.

However, it is interesting to me that 24 beer enthusiasts get together, they have them taste two beers and see if they are different enough to be reliably recognized as different; those that get the right answer say which they preferred. Vs. “My completely subjective ways of measuring what works are better and are more valid.” Even in competitions a judge is only as good as his pallet which will be muddied by the beers he/she tasted previously.

And if you go in, should you turn left or right…or right-and-three-quarters? Or, maybe, not quite? Or go around back and sneak in from behind? Simple it's not, I'm afraid you will find, for a mind-maker-upper to make up his mind.

 

[divrack]

And then you are on the road to spunding.

I bet there is a road to spunding and I bet it's in England, near somewhere called grundswaith or something...

 

[day_trippr]

wrt the exbeeriment, again: both beers were cold-crashed with zero apparent effort to prevent oxygen uptake.
Only the racking procedures were different.
And, of course, no sign of any DO testing along the way.
So...My bet is one beer was somewhat more oxidized than the other.
It can be tough to decide which beer sucks more...

Cheers!

 

[divrack]

wrt the exbeeriment, again: both beers were cold-crashed with zero apparent effort to prevent oxygen uptake.
Only the racking procedures were different.
And, of course, no sign of any DO testing along the way.
So...My bet is one beer was somewhat more oxidized than the other.
It can be tough to decide which beer sucks more...

Cheers!

No need to be mean...
Hehe

 

[aprichman]

I only cold crash dry hopped beers. Otherwise the beer gets lagered in a keg and the first pint gets dumped.

 

[GPP33]

wrt the exbeeriment, again: both beers were cold-crashed with zero apparent effort to prevent oxygen uptake.
Only the racking procedures were different.
And, of course, no sign of any DO testing along the way.
So...My bet is one beer was somewhat more oxidized than the other.
It can be tough to decide which beer sucks more...

Cheers!

I’ve often wondered since they seem to cold crash most of their beers with no protection, could some of the insignificant tests have be significant had both beers not been damaged?

 

[divrack]

I’ve often wondered since they seem to cold crash most of their beers with no protection, could some of the insignificant tests have be significant had both beers not been damaged?

I'd genuinely like to see them just test completely different beers and see if they get the right one.
The other day I read one that they had added acid to one which Ended at . 018
And the other was. 012 and they didn't notice... FFS that's a completely different beer!! It's a third as sweet. Come on.

 

[GPP33]

I'd genuinely like to see them just test completely different beers and see if they get the right one.
The other day I read one that they had added acid to one which Ended at . 018
And the other was. 012 and they didn't notice... FFS that's a completely different beer!! It's a third as sweet. Come on.

That about sums up the main conclusion I’ve gotten from Brulosophy, people naturally suck at identifying and distinguishing flavors. For the most part we can just tell “beer good” or “beer not good”.

 

[Dland]

I bet there is a road to spunding and I bet it's in England, near somewhere called grundswaith or something...

Yeah, I thought about that, and even considered picking out a little spunding song on the guitar, but decided to get another beer instead.

 

[Blazinlow86]

I think how long the beers stored makes a difference to how much damage oxidization will make also. For example if you brew 3 gallon batches and drink them in 2 weeks it may not be very noticeable. I do 18g batches that may last 4-5 months as I have several taps in rotation I take all the precautions to avoid any oxidization and am very anal about it. I've never experienced any off flavors even after that amount of time. Cheers

 

[divrack]

I think how long the beers stored makes a difference to how much damage oxidization will make also. For example if you brew 3 gallon batches and drink them in 2 weeks it may not be very noticeable. I do 18g batches that may last 4-5 months as I have several taps in rotation I take all the precautions to avoid any oxidization and am very anal about it. I've never experienced any off flavors even after that amount of time. Cheers

I just did a bit of an experiment on a neipa with the bulk in zero o2 contact and a portion exposed to the o2 in an unpurged keg and shaken with half a keg of air to force carb.
Was pretty amazed by the difference between the keg I'd exposed to o2 and the others after even 48hrs. Both were tasty but the fresh hop zing of the no o2 keg remains pretty much perfect after a week while the other has diminished. Not 'spoiled' yet by any means but no longer popping like the best commercial breweries. I'd meant to keep a couple pints of the o2 batch longer to see how long to go purple, but accidentally finished it...

 

[Nubiwan]

Well, science, for one thing. You don’t need much oxygen exposure to dull some of the fresh malt flavors in bright beer. A bit more than that and you’ll start introducing notes of sherry and wet cardboard. There’s a few styles that benefit from slight oxidation (namely traditional Flanders red and gueuze), but it’s microscopic on the brewing scale and those brewers still routinely dump overly acetic barrels. NEIPA is a very sensitive style due to all the hop compounds in the wort — I’d love to hear someone who has successfully bottle conditioned a NEIPA to come forward with their process.

The thing about oxidation in homebrewing is you probably won’t recognize the symptoms until you taste a brew that’s not affected. I routinely had issues with my gravity samples tasting fantastic, but depreciating after less than 2 weeks in the bottle. I just assumed that’s how all homebrew tasted — until I started making some simple changes to my brewing process. I won’t pretend that my track record has been perfect...I recently dumped a golden sour due to excessive pear notes (ethyl acetate). But at least I can recognize the symptoms now.

FWIW now, and sorry to revive an older thread, but I use plastic fermentors and bottle. I’m not about to invest more time or money in the hobby beyond what I consider decent beers I already make, however oxidated they happen to have been, which in bottling is considerable. I brewed a fairly hoppy ipa recently, when my previous experience had been a drop off in aroma and flavour and taste , in all my ipa attempts. To my last one, I added Ascorbic Acid during dry hop, and my results were quite positive. No drop in flavour or aroma, and taste was consistent over 3 months it all lasted. I’m considering using AA in my currently cold crashing lager in an attempt to help it stave off oxidation. Got a thread on here which I am updating findings on.

 

[cmac62]

FWIW now, and sorry to revive an older thread, but I use plastic fermentors and bottle. I’m not about to invest more time or money in the hobby beyond what I consider decent beers I already make, however oxidated they happen to have been, which in bottling is considerable. I brewed a fairly hoppy ipa recently, when my previous experience had been a drop off in aroma and flavour and taste , in all my ipa attempts. To my last one, I added Ascorbic Acid during dry hop, and my results were quite positive. No drop in flavour or aroma, and taste was consistent over 3 months it all lasted. I’m considering using AA in my currently cold crashing lager in an attempt to help it stave off oxidation. Got a thread on here which I am updating findings on.

I recently purchased all of the ingredients for the Trifecta, Brewtan B, AA and K-meta, I plan on using these for the first time in a hoppy American Wheat I'm brewing soon. Can't wait to see the difference. If I recall correctly, BtB helps remove O2 interacting compounds, AA is a short term O2 scavenger and KM is a longer term O2 scavenger. I guess that's why its called the trifecta. Nubiwan I think the other two, or at least KM may even make your hoppy beers more stable. LOL