Water profile check for the experts

[Dcioni]

Hi all, I’m fortunate to have my city water profile easily downloadable via pdf. I’ve been brewing “hazy”/NE IPAs and Pale Ales w decent results. Trying to locate all possible areas of improvement including oxidation, ferm temp control, etc. — water chemistry is a new world to me that I’m just scratching the surface. Can any of you experts take a quick look at the following and see if there’s any red flags here? Thanks so much in advance

 

[Gnomebrewer]

I'm certainly no expert, but this is my take on your water....

Alkalinity is quite low and will be easily countered with acid even for pale beers. No need to dilute with RO water.
Calcium is a tad low.
Sodium and chloride are quite high. I would avoid adding sodium (don't use baking soda to raise pH if you brew dark beers).
Sulfate is low - this is good because you can either keep it low or add gypsum if you want more sulfate.
Your only real issue (apart from making sure you target a good pH) is getting Calcium up to about 50ppm. This is mostly done by adding Calcium chloride or gypsum (Calcium sulfate) so you are also adding either chloride or sulfate as well as Calcium. For NE IPA I'd add gypsum - your chloride levels will still be higher than sulfate, but some people don't like any sulfate in their beer.

 

[Dcioni]

I'm certainly no expert, but this is my take on your water....

Alkalinity is quite low and will be easily countered with acid even for pale beers. No need to dilute with RO water.
Calcium is a tad low.
Sodium and chloride are quite high. I would avoid adding sodium (don't use baking soda to raise pH if you brew dark beers).
Sulfate is low - this is good because you can either keep it low or add gypsum if you want more sulfate.
Your only real issue (apart from making sure you target a good pH) is getting Calcium up to about 50ppm. This is mostly done by adding Calcium chloride or gypsum (Calcium sulfate) so you are also adding either chloride or sulfate as well as Calcium. For NE IPA I'd add gypsum - your chloride levels will still be higher than sulfate, but some people don't like any sulfate in their beer.

Thanks SO much.. so I would potentially be gypsum only to my water before mash in? Sorry this is all quite foreign to me

 

[Gnomebrewer]

And you must have about 10ppm of Magnesium, so don't add any more.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

Thanks SO much.. so I would potentially be gypsum only to my water before mash in? Sorry this is all quite foreign to me

Yes. I'd suggest about 0.5g/gal of gypsum - that gets you up to about 50ppm Calcium and keeps your sulfate just below your chloride level. Add some to the mash and the remainder to the boil (eg. if you have 3gal of mash water and 6gal boil, add 1.5grams of gypsum to the mash and 1.5grams to the boil kettle (3grams total in the pre boil wort)).

The only other thing you need is to get a mash pH estimate based on the grains you're using to determine if any acid is needed in the mash.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

Like I said though, I'm no expert - there are others with more knowledge who will no doubt pick up on something that I haven't.

 

[Dcioni]

Thanks so much! I do have a ph meter to check mash so I’m good on that front.

Last question, this water treatment — what is the net outcome here.. what effects will this addition possibly have in my final beer?

 

[ESBrewer]

Some gypsum, yes. It will help you in adjusting mash pH, coagulate some protein etc. The exact amount is up to you. You have quite a bit chloride already and you are low in sulphate. Gypsum will contain some sulphate as well. High Cl/SO4 ratio should mean more rounded and fullbodied mouthfeel and more sulphate than chloride would mean that crispness/bitterness/=hops will be accentuated by the water profile. I don't know that much about the strategy for IPAs to say exactly, but addition that brings sulphate to roughly the same level as chloride (in ppm) could be a neutral starting point. In sparge water you may need to add a little bit of acid (phosphoric acid or maybe lactic depending on what you have) because calcium is not so effective there. During the sparge the pH of the water coming through the grainbead should remain close to mash pH. If you don't remove the alkalinity the pH of the flow through tends to rise a bit and if it rises too much you may get some unwanted tannins etc. extracted. Don't put too much and be careful with phosphoric acid it may be very strong and will corrode everything especially eyes, skin etc. when not diluted. If you dilute it yourself use glassware and add water first then acid cause the reaction with water may heat up a lot.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I would only add to treat it with a crushed Campden tablet to knock out the chlorine.

 

[Dcioni]

I would only add to treat it with a crushed Campden tablet to knock out the chlorine.

Thanks- is the ratio the same for beer as it is wine? 1 tablet per gallon? Or is it more like 1 tablet per 5 gal batch.. lastly, added to the mash? Boil?

Thanks so much, all!

 

[Dcioni]

I hope it’s ok that I just rapid fire some questions as I do my research.. this thread is enlightening. I know that you really should have mash pH adjustments precalculated as best-guess from past experience as you need to add it very early in or you miss optimal conversion time... obv from zero/starting point that’s not entirely possible.. want to make sure I’m prepared.

Will the addition of gypsum impact my pH at all?

If so, should that go in w my strike water prior to adding grains? I plan to test the pH as soon as the grains are sufficiently mixed so I can add any adjustment early enough to make a difference. 5.2 - 5.4 is the sweet spot for IPAs/Pale Ales? I read that’s not necessarily true for dark beers also?

Lastly, i have a small container of 5-2 pH Stabilizer w instructions to add 1 tbsp to 5 gal “for optimum pH” — is this stuff decent? Is that a good start? Add, mix, then recheck right away to see if I’m closer to 5.2

And if my water levels have been off as per the earlier replies in this thread, is it possible this is contributing to my oxidation issues?

Thanks so much all I can’t tell you how much I appreciate the input from you. This is beyond helpful

Sorry for typos- typed on my iPhone

 

[ajdelange]

WRT chlorine: you don't need campden tablets for chlorine but you do for chloramine. See https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/campden-tablets-sulfites-and-brewing-water.361073/ for tips on how to tell if you have chloramine, what dose to use and what the consequences (residual ions) of campden tablet use are.

WRT gypsum: it has a small effect on mash pH (smaller than most people think) because of its calcium. Calcium chloride thus has the same effect. It is not enough to make control of mash pH via these salts practical. That is done with acid or acidualted malt.

As to ideal mash pH: lagers are generally mashed a bit higher than ales and some fancy that a higher pH makes stouts taste smoother. You will have to experiment to see what pH gives you the beer you like best. Shoot for 5.4 -5.6 to start. You won't go wrong in that range.

5.2 stabilizer does not do anything close to what it's labeling claims and it adds a lot of sodium (it is just sodium phosphate). It should be taken off the market.

 

[Dcioni]

WRT chlorine: you don't need campden tablets for chlorine but you do for chloramine. See https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/campden-tablets-sulfites-and-brewing-water.361073/ for tips on how to tell if you have chloramine, what dose to use and what the consequences (residual ions) of campden tablet use are.

WRT gypsum: it has a small effect on mash pH (smaller than most people think) because of its calcium. Calcium chloride thus has the same effect. It is not enough to make control of mash pH via these salts practical. That is done with acid or acidualted malt.

As to ideal mash pH: lagers are generally mashed a bit higher than ales and some fancy that a higher pH makes stouts taste smoother. You will have to experiment to see what pH gives you the beer you like best. Shoot for 5.4 -5.6 to start. You won't go wrong in that range.

5.2 stabilizer does not do anything close to what it's labeling claims and it adds a lot of sodium (it is just sodium phosphate). It should be taken off the market.

Thanks !! I suspected 5.2 stabilizer was too “easy / turnkey” to be truely useful given how complicated this all is. Will toss it!

 

[ajdelange]

Not so fast! I did finally think of a use for it. If you have plants that need a lot of phosphorous you can use it as fertilizer.

 

[Dcioni]

WRT chlorine: you don't need campden tablets for chlorine but you do for chloramine. See https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/campden-tablets-sulfites-and-brewing-water.361073/ for tips on how to tell if you have chloramine, what dose to use and what the consequences (residual ions) of campden tablet use are.

WRT gypsum: it has a small effect on mash pH (smaller than most people think) because of its calcium. Calcium chloride thus has the same effect. It is not enough to make control of mash pH via these salts practical. That is done with acid or acidualted malt.

As to ideal mash pH: lagers are generally mashed a bit higher than ales and some fancy that a higher pH makes stouts taste smoother. You will have to experiment to see what pH gives you the beer you like best. Shoot for 5.4 -5.6 to start. You won't go wrong in that range.

5.2 stabilizer does not do anything close to what it's labeling claims and it adds a lot of sodium (it is just sodium phosphate). It should be taken off the market.

Just double checked the water report and it appears my water supply is chlorine and not Chloramine, so looks like campden tablets would not be needed

 

[ajdelange]

You can, of course, use campden tablets to get rid of chlorine but it will leave the volumes of water typically used in homebrewing by letting it stand over night and when heated. Should you forget to do this and smell chlorine in your HLT then a campden tablet is your instant salvation.

 

[Horseflesh]

I use Campden every time just in case. It's dirt cheap and appears to be harmless.

You can tie yourself in knots obsessing over minerals, but the work does pay off. I suggest for starters aiming for a "balanced" profile that matches the color of the beer you are making. The Bru'n Water spreadsheet has these built in. Pick a middle of the range mash pH like 5.4, too. That way you have some leeway before you get out of the ideal range. See how it goes, and make more changes next time.

One last bit of advice, make sure you write down the actual Lovibond values on the grain bins. The values online or in Beersmith may not be exactly what your store stocks, and the more accurate the color values, the better the pH prediction.

 

[Dcioni]

Jumping back in here. All this was really helpful -- I'm playing around with EZ Water Calculator too, makes much more sense now. The only question I have is that my water report has no mention of Magnesium (Mg)--- does that mean I have 0 ppm Mg in my water? Is that realistic?

Thanks!

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

There is plenty of magnesium in the malts. You don't need to add any.

 

[ajdelange]

Your hardness is listed as being between 1.68 and 2.26 mEq/L but your calcium is between 0.9 and 1.3 mEq/L. It is thus clear that you have some magnesium - evidently 0.78 to 0.96 mEq/L.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

As noted earlier, your Magnesium is about 10ppm (based on 0.78 to 0.96 mEq/L).

 

[Dcioni]

OK I think I got it! Using EZ Calculator and the advice in this thread, i'm shooting for the following. Will this help give me a NE style (ie less malty, less bitter, big hop flavor, thicker/fuller mouthfeel)? Will list the approx malt bill and hops + yeast down below as thats obviously hugely important. Everything look OK to you? Uploading the PDF of the EZ Calculator here too.

Calcium: 89
Magnesium: 10
Sodium: 36
Chloride: 140
Sulfate: 143
Cl/SO4 Ratio: 0.98
Est pH: 5.38

Additions from my water report (attached in thread earlier) to get there:
0.25 Campden Tablet (Crushed) to Strike Water
4.5g Gypsum to Mash
2.9g Gypsum to Sparge Water
2g Calcium Chloride to Mash
4.5mL Lactic Acid (88%) to Mash (Est.)

Approx Recipe (Give or take):
6 Gal Batch, Est: ABV 6.2%
9.5 lb Pale 2 Row (75.5%)
1.75 lb Flaked Oats (13.5%)
1 lb White Wheat (8%)
0.4 lb Cara-Pils/Dextrine (3%)
0.1 oz Galaxy Hops @ 10 Mins
3 oz Citra Hops (Whirlpool @ 180)
2.9 oz Galaxy Hops (Whirlpool @ 180)
2.5 oz Cascade Hops (Whirlpool @ 180)
Vermont Giga Yeast (GY054)
3.5 oz Cascade Hops (Dry Hop)
3 oz Galaxy Hops (Dry Hop)

 

[Gnomebrewer]

That seems like too much lactic acid for a 6gal batch. I'd lean towards a more conservative 2 to 3mL and see where that gets the pH to (make adjustments for the next batch if needed).

There's no point adding salts to the sparge water - put them directly into the boil.

You should also consider acidifying your sparge water with lactic acid (only if you fly sparge - not needed for batch sparge).

There's no need for the campden tablet unless your water has chloramines (avoid the associated sulfur and potassium or sodium). Leave your water out overnight if it's heavily chlorinated to remove chlorine (not normally needed unless there's a chlorine spike).

 

[Dcioni]

Thanks! I’ll drop the lactic to 3mL and check where I’m at. Will skip campden. Batch sparge w continuous mash recirc on a Grainfather so I’m good on that front too.