OP
OP
Does anyone have a link to the ssbrewtech system? All i could find is their new ebrewing systems. Is that the one you're referring to Bobby?
Want to switch to electric...
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OP
OP
Damn, just saw where i went wrong with this thing. My buddy and i went to the store and bought the outlet for a lone heating element that used the 3 prong plug. I assumed that the spike system used the same plug but it doesn't. I just found the electrical information for that. Dammit...
Running the wire wasn't bad actually so maybe just to do it right, i'll ask my buddy to give me a hand fixing this.
Running the wire wasn't bad actually so maybe just to do it right, i'll ask my buddy to give me a hand fixing this.
OP
OP
New 14-30 receptacle ordered as well as some more wire. Im just going to pull this setup apart and see if i can push a 4th wire through this conduit and hook it up. We'll see how it goes
MplsUgly
Well-Known Member
Hey OP. All the advice here is true. The one thing I want to add is that these projects are always more involved than you think. As a home brewer, I'm sure you know that.
There are a ton of different ways to go electric from simple cheap systems to borderline microbrewery systems. Think about what you want in the end and what it's worth to you. If it's a hot plate and a sketchy dimmer switch, great. If it's a rims tube, and propane boil, great. Just know what you want and find the path to get there.
I started the electrification project because a friend gave me a couple PIDs. I thought I was basically done, how much more could I need?? A lot!!!!
Systems that handle high power in a safe way can get expensive. Switches, lights, wire, 30 amp receptacles, breakers, contractors, an enclosure. It can really add up. By the end of my build the free PIDs was a small amount in comparison. And I was really lucky that I could scrap so much of my panel together from old projects, odds and ends and friends who had parts from similar projects and the scrap bin at work.
Sort out what you want. Build a parts list and price it out. Take the time to plan your build. You will be way happier and have the systems you want in the end.
Good luck and I hope you make it. Electric brewing takes more commitment but it's way worth it.
There are a ton of different ways to go electric from simple cheap systems to borderline microbrewery systems. Think about what you want in the end and what it's worth to you. If it's a hot plate and a sketchy dimmer switch, great. If it's a rims tube, and propane boil, great. Just know what you want and find the path to get there.
I started the electrification project because a friend gave me a couple PIDs. I thought I was basically done, how much more could I need?? A lot!!!!
Systems that handle high power in a safe way can get expensive. Switches, lights, wire, 30 amp receptacles, breakers, contractors, an enclosure. It can really add up. By the end of my build the free PIDs was a small amount in comparison. And I was really lucky that I could scrap so much of my panel together from old projects, odds and ends and friends who had parts from similar projects and the scrap bin at work.
Sort out what you want. Build a parts list and price it out. Take the time to plan your build. You will be way happier and have the systems you want in the end.
Good luck and I hope you make it. Electric brewing takes more commitment but it's way worth it.
tofuguy
Well-Known Member
I could not agree more. If you do know where you want to go, you may have checkpoints along the way. For example, I wanted to end up at a eBIAB, but I initially just made an electric kettle for my boil and strike water while using my cooler mash tun for about a year before making that jump further to the eBIAB.
This is the exact point I'm at, as my funds toward my eBiab goal dwindle under the pressure of shipping, tax, and gotchas. Onward and upward!!
Soulshine2
Well-Known Member
Am I reading that correctly...Water is H2O . if you drive off the O ,you have only H left.
When you boil water you aren't splitting the water molecule as you would be with something like electrolysis.
Instead, water has air dissolved in it; some of that air (21 percent in fact) is oxygen, and that's dissolved in the water similarly to how CO2 is dissolved in beer.
Boiling the water for 5 minutes drives that off, leaving me with strike water in which there is no O2 that would produce oxidation of the grist.
OP
OP
Thanks for the advice man, I appreciate it. I get what you're saying for sure. Time is a very precious resource for me, especially with a kid on the way and working as much as my wife and I do. Building something from scratch wasn't a very appealing option for me, but originally I was willing to do it. However, after many conversations with the wife and talking about what we want when it comes to brewing, nixing the cheap electric route that I was going (DIY element kit with still dragon small controller) and deciding to go the turn key setup is what we both wanted to do. She loves beer as much as I do and wants to quit buying propane so this wasn't a hard sell. The Spike Turnkey system, which I initially thought was not an option due to budgeting, is now an option because we're selling some vehicles in preparation for the kid. So that's what we're doing. I'll probably pull the trigger by the end of the month. Just waiting for the new outlet to show up in the mail to wire that up instead of the 3 wire outlet that I put in there first.
Soulshine2
Well-Known Member
Im not sure I understand what it is you're doing. The whole LODO thing , I mean. The grist will already have oxygen in it. and do you or do you not aerate your wort before pitching? I'm rather confused why one would go to the trouble of all this . what does it do ,really.
The short version is that oxidation of the grist and the wort, prior to the boil, robs malt flavors from the result.
The approach is to try to limit that as much as possible. Crushing the grain JUST before dough-in so the crushed pieces of grain are exposed to the atmosphere as short a time as possible (some even go so far as to fill the mash tun with CO2, and to purge their lines as well). Pre-boil the strike water. Add potassium metabisulfite (campden tablets) to the strike water as an oxygen scavenger. Using a mash cap to isolate the mash from the atmosphere. No splashing. Underlet the grain when doughing in. Transfer wort to boil kettle with no splashing, and use a wort cap on top of the wort in the BK to, again, limit atmosphere exposure until it's boiling....
Once you're boiling the wort you have the same condition as preboiling the strike water. Once you transfer to fermenter you do need to oxygenate (usually, though the dry yeast people say you don't have to with that). In my case, i'll pitch an active starter into the wort so the yeast gets going as fast as possible and consumes the oxygen ASAP.
It's all fiddly, and is a somewhat lengthy learning curve while one figures out how to manage all the moving parts.
I brewed Sunday doing this. I took a sample of the wort using a pipette, checked gravity with my refractometer (a few drops), and then squirted the rest in my mouth. Wowee! Sweet, flavorful--it's almost shocking.
I also took a sample with a turkey baster for checking pH. Let that cool for a while in a "frozen" whiskey glass, pH was fine. After all that, tasted that sample, and the flavors were very muted compared to the original pipette. Why? Exposed to air, a lot.
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
theres a lot I dont know about it but my take so far as to why many breweries do this..
A piece of steak left out turns a dull bownish color on the outside but not in the middle as the oxygen permeates the surface and gives the outside of the steak a dull (sometimes desirable) flavor as a result. Same with lodo. Grain stays fairly fresh oxygen free on the inside until its crushed.. if you oxygenate the wort for the yeast its done after the flavors are created with the hops and grain its different than making those flavors with stale (or less fresh ) ingredients to begin with. (hops that are usually sold sealed in nitrogen sealed bags to prevent the same oxidation in flavor).
I dont do it personally but ive seen enough evidence to show it does have an effect on how things come out.
Ok, enough LoDO discussion here. This is the "Electric Brewing" forum. We have a separate sub-forum for LoDO. Please take any further LoDO questions/discussions there. Future LoDO discussion in this thread will be deleted as Off Topic. Thanks for your cooperation.
doug293cz
HBT Moderator
doug293cz
HBT Moderator
OP
OP
Bobby (or anyone else who really knows electrical) i wired in the 14-30 outlet with the 2 hots, neutral and ground. Does it matter which hot goes to which side of the breaker? I don't think it does from what I've read but figured I'd ask
I'm pretty sure there's no polarity in the hots, just keep them consistent as line1 and line2 throughout all of your wiring end to end.
OP
OP
All fixed! 14-30 outlet installed. New system should be here in 1-2 weeks!
Check out the Time4Another1 Youtube channel. He built a really nice one.
I'd build one like he did if I was going to use RIMS. I actually bought the parts. I went induction instead.
I didn't like my HERMS. The heat transfer between the HLT water and the coil is poor because the HLT water is pretty much stagnant. It works best if the HLT is boiling. But then it needs to cool down to 170F for sparging.
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Yes, you can create a system that will work with the above, but there is no way to shut off the voltage if (when) an SSR fails. Even a working SSR will provide enough leakage current when off to give a substantial shock (a few mA.) I wouldn't use, and won't recommend, an electrical control system that does not have provision for mechanical disconnect (unplugging is not adequate IMHO.) The disconnect should be manually operated to protect against software/hardware control failure.
Brew on
If the main panel is close to the brew space, then this would be marginally acceptable, but you would have to operate with the panel door open. You don't want to have to fumble around if you need to turn something off quickly. All of my designs have either a contactor or manually operated switch that will cause all voltage to be mechanically (air gap) isolated from the control panel outputs. I believe all of PJ's, and the Electric Brewery designs do as well.
You are an EE, but do you have any experience with safety requirements for industrial equipment?
Brew on
Most industrial stuff has a shutoff (disconnect) connected to the panel door. You open the door and everything inside is dead.
Most everything that controls something dangerous has an estop. How it is implemented varies. Complete deenergization is rare. Usually drivers are shut down.
The failure rate on quality SSRs is low. In a brewery application the operator will see the process temp overshoot. A process alarm will probably sound. Worst case is a boil over. Un plugging and or turning off a breaker is not asking too much in a rare instance.
Companies weigh cost, frequency, potential damage, etc. People used to build big manual panels with switches and lights. Now everything is a PLC with some sort of computer UI, because it is cheaper, more intelligent, more flexible, etc. PIDs are only usable by a human standing in front of them. Nobody wants that anymore.
Here is the Blichman Tower of Power.
https://www.blichmannengineering.com/tower-of-power-temp-power-controller.html
I guarantee it has an SSR in it. Where is its manual disconnect ? .
Most everything that controls something dangerous has an estop. How it is implemented varies. Complete deenergization is rare. Usually drivers are shut down.
The failure rate on quality SSRs is low. In a brewery application the operator will see the process temp overshoot. A process alarm will probably sound. Worst case is a boil over. Un plugging and or turning off a breaker is not asking too much in a rare instance.
Companies weigh cost, frequency, potential damage, etc. People used to build big manual panels with switches and lights. Now everything is a PLC with some sort of computer UI, because it is cheaper, more intelligent, more flexible, etc. PIDs are only usable by a human standing in front of them. Nobody wants that anymore.
Here is the Blichman Tower of Power.
https://www.blichmannengineering.com/tower-of-power-temp-power-controller.html
I guarantee it has an SSR in it. Where is its manual disconnect ? .
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augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
all mine have both a contactor or dual pole relay in front of the ssr so both poles are off and to eliminate the leaking voltage to my elements when off.. and an estop... so not every controller. Not even close if you count all the panels based off Kals design..
The failure rate on the cheap white generic ssrs many are using for brewing and that come with many pids is high.. I know its easily avoidable by spending an extra dollar or 2 but many people dont. Plus your not taking into consideration the fact that many of these panels are homemade and made by people that may not know the correct way to give the ssr enough cooling capacity and such, these are also folks who are drinking in many cases while using this equipment and unplugging and switching things around mid brew. Its best just to make the panel so all power is off to the element when its off not just one leg to make the circuit incomplete.
Even the printing equipment I service that uses ssrs for heater also utilze thermal cutouts as a backup safety device to kill the power in the event of a thermister or ssr failure and it does happen.
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I teach some EE students (really--though I'm not an EE myself). One of the things I teach about is single point-of-failure designs, and why I like avoiding such designs if possible, by building in redundancy or doing a design that has great robustness in those points of failure. (BTW, I do this in the context of sustainability and renewable energy).
For example, one reason I like superinsulation as a way to keep a home comfortable (note I didn't say heat that home), is that it works no matter what, and requires no outside inputs, switches, electricity, or manual inputs.
Failsafe. I like failsafe. A lot. And if you have a system that is being operated by people who are drinking, as many such systems are, then there is only one design consideration that, IMO, is paramount: make it as idiot-proof as you can.
I built an Auber panel last summer; one reason I really like it is the simplicity with which I can disengage it. I can flip a switch to turn off the heating element, or I can turn the key.
I don't want to depend on my ability, when panicky because something bad is happening, to do the right thing. I drink very little while brewing, usually after the boil is done, but even so--building a system that can be screwed up means there's high probability that it WILL be screwed up.
Bravo to @augiedoggy and @doug293cz for championing designs that are robust.
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
^^ I had a hose come off of a barbed fitting to my plate chiller on our 3 bbl system last week and spew hot wort all over... let me tell you the panic and confusion not to mention the burnt hand the ensued... and I wasnt drinking so... yeah I agree.
My panel is entirely software driven, that said I also have a contactor wired to an e-stop (literally the only button on the panel) to drop power to the thing if I slam it. (along with float switches to protect my elements), I'd say this all added maybe 10 bucks in parts to the build.
Yes, almost all control panels use an SSR, SSVR, triac, or similar to modulate the power to the element(s), as mechanical switches/relays are not good for high frequency switching. But, an SSR, etc. is not a positive disconnect. They have off state leakage, and are normally only used to switch one of the hots, which leaves 120V on the element outlet when the SSR is off.
How do you implement an E-stop with just the component list you posted earlier? Seems you need a contactor to do that.
The Blichmann controller has an on/off switch on the front. I would hope that switch drives a contactor, as the switch itself certainly can't handle 30, or more amps.
Brew on
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
im fairly certain the mash and boil is Not UL, runs on a regular 120v gfci outlet with only one hot pole to switch on and off and not for nothing its built about as cheaply as possible, Enverythings enclosed, theres no element cords for the user to be uplugging or moving around.. Not sure if your missing the point intentionally or what here.
Do you turn the breakers off in your house before you plug in the toaster ? Because if you don't turn off the breaker, the toaster outlet is live at 120VAC. You could electrocute yourself.
Does your toaster have a manual disconnect ? Other than the plug ?
.
It's the ability to provide air gap isolation for the hot lines, and a way to control it manually from the panel that is important. Microcomputer software reliability is not considered adequate for protecting against risk to life. Situation is likely different for PLC's, as these are designed to be much more reliable than a Windows or Linux based system. They are also hella more expensive than an RPI, so not often used by homebrewers who are notoriously thrifty when it comes to spending their own money. Even with PLC control of SSR's you should also have a contactor that can protect against SSR failure.
Brew on
Most toasters have a set of contacts that open and air gap the hot line when the toaster is off. If you turn the toaster on, and then plug it in, you could get some arcing, as you could if you unplugged the toaster while it is on.
It's the ability to provide air gap isolation for the hot lines, and a way to control it manually from the panel that is important. Microcomputer software reliability is not considered adequate for protecting against risk to life. Situation is likely different for PLC's, as these are designed to be much more reliable than a Windows or Linux based system. They are also hella more expensive than an RPI, so not often used by homebrewers who are notoriously thrifty when it comes to spending their own money. Even with PLC control of SSR's you should also have a contactor that can protect against SSR failure.
Brew on
.
Most toasters have a set of contacts that open and air gap the hot line when the toaster is off. If you turn the toaster on, and then plug it in, you could get some arcing, as you could if you unplugged the toaster while it is on.
It's the ability to provide air gap isolation for the hot lines, and a way to control it manually from the panel that is important. Microcomputer software reliability is not considered adequate for protecting against risk to life. Situation is likely different for PLC's, as these are designed to be much more reliable than a Windows or Linux based system. They are also hella more expensive than an RPI, so not often used by homebrewers who are notoriously thrifty when it comes to spending their own money. Even with PLC control of SSR's you should also have a contactor that can protect against SSR failure.
Brew on
And where did you obtain all this "expertise"?
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I can't speak for Doug, but I took apart my first toaster when I was 4 years old.
Although, it was quite a few years later before I learned how to put it back together....
Btw, I was 3 when I noticed that tweezers were the EXACT same shape as a wall outlet. Incidentally, that is my first memory. I've always wondered if the shock jump-started my memory or wiped out whatever there was from before...
I have a PhD level education (but no dissertation) in engineering, and spent 36 years in the electronics industry. I retired as a Senior Engineer from a Fortune 100 company. At the end of my career, I was the company's foremost expert in physical design rules for laminate substrates for integrated circuit packages. During my career I also dealt with process equipment, and learned a great deal from the safety inspectors who would have to approve new equipment. I have always been adept at learning new things as necessary during my career, and have continued that with control panel design since my retirement.
Brew on
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I have a PhD level education (but no dissertation) in engineering, and spent 36 years in the electronics industry. I retired as a Senior Engineer from a Fortune 100 company. At the end of my career, I was the company's foremost expert in physical design rules for laminate substrates for integrated circuit packages. During my career I also dealt with process equipment, and learned a great deal from the safety inspectors who would have to approve new equipment. I have always been adept at learning new things as necessary during my career, and have continued that with control panel design since my retirement.
Brew on
That's a pretty good answer.
I would like to echo @doug293cz ‘s comments. In this hobby where we are mixing liquids and significant voltages and current delivery, it is imperative to do it with as much safety as possible. You don’t need to wear a seatbelt to drive a car, but it certainly adds a level of safety. Does it add cost and complexity - yes, but the benefits outweigh the risks.
Adding a pathway to eliminate a dangerous situation is imperative. If the switch is not within the immediate reach of the user, it doesn’t exist. A breaker or another remote switch doesn’t count. Keep in mind, as stated above, that 240 VAC circuits should have an ability to disconnect both legs. Also, SSRs leak and fail regularly, and can never be relied upon. The comments above indicate a lack of realization of possible failures. Yes, an element which is stuck on while being immersed has some inherent safety buffering, but what if the vessel is empty? Search dry-fire in this forum and find numerous examples. I have personally experienced an SSR which failed “partially” on and still caused an element to glow. That SSR was appropriately mounted to an oversized legitimate heat-sink, demonstrating their failure is not strictly associated with overheating.
@bremman ! I think is a little irresponsible of you to inform the forum you are an EE, yet post that safety standards can be ignored. People read information on these forums and have to sort out what’s acceptably safe. As a topic expert, presenting reasons why safety equipment need not be used is not in the best interest of the users who follow your advice.
Adding a pathway to eliminate a dangerous situation is imperative. If the switch is not within the immediate reach of the user, it doesn’t exist. A breaker or another remote switch doesn’t count. Keep in mind, as stated above, that 240 VAC circuits should have an ability to disconnect both legs. Also, SSRs leak and fail regularly, and can never be relied upon. The comments above indicate a lack of realization of possible failures. Yes, an element which is stuck on while being immersed has some inherent safety buffering, but what if the vessel is empty? Search dry-fire in this forum and find numerous examples. I have personally experienced an SSR which failed “partially” on and still caused an element to glow. That SSR was appropriately mounted to an oversized legitimate heat-sink, demonstrating their failure is not strictly associated with overheating.
@bremman ! I think is a little irresponsible of you to inform the forum you are an EE, yet post that safety standards can be ignored. People read information on these forums and have to sort out what’s acceptably safe. As a topic expert, presenting reasons why safety equipment need not be used is not in the best interest of the users who follow your advice.
