Turbid Mashing Tips

[specharka]

I finally pulled the trigger and brewed my first actual sour (a traditional lambic using WLP655). I decided to follow a traditional turbid mash schedule and though I hit my desired gravity, there were definitely some missteps. I was hoping some of the more experienced sour brewers here would have some feedback for these issues.

For the record, I used https://beerandbrewing.com/VMvPoysAAKCj5y-7/article/turbid-mashing as a guide. The only modification I made to the recipe was to use 65 Pils/35 unmalted wheat.

1) I had an extremely difficult time getting an accurate mash temperature reading due to the super thick mash (0.3 qt/lb). Is it really necessary to perform an acid rest and mash so thickly?

2) I had an even harder time trying to hit subsequent mash temperatures. The schedule calls for 113-137-150-162-168, and I might have gotten 113-136-148-158-162 with luck. No matter how much water I seemed to add, I was always a few degrees short -- probably from thermal losses.

3) I was able to withdraw about 4 qt of turbid runnings between both pullings, but they weren't enough to raise my mash to mashout temperatures when I added them back in. Is this going to detrimentally affect the amount of starch available?

4) Would it be possible to use a single infusion schedule to replicate the turbid mash wort composition? I was thinking a simple 50/50 Pils/wheat grist with a mash at 158.

I appreciate any feedback!

 

[Dirty25]

1) I had an extremely difficult time getting an accurate mash temperature reading due to the super thick mash (0.3 qt/lb). Is it really necessary to perform an acid rest and mash so thickly?

if you did you calculations right the temperature should have been fine, yes it's kinda important to do an acid rest with the raw wheat. You don't have to mash soo thick but then you would skew all the water additions down the road. I normally have to add another quart of water to get the grains mixed in properly on my system


2) I had an even harder time trying to hit subsequent mash temperatures. The schedule calls for 113-137-150-162-168, and I might have gotten 113-136-148-158-162 with luck. No matter how much water I seemed to add, I was always a few degrees short -- probably from thermal losses.

i usually have the same issue I mash in a 15g Blichman un insulated mash tun. I always draw off all the fluids and add the boiling water and it helps to hit the temps better, everyone's system is different. The only rest you were way off on was the mash out, it won't be a big deal

3) I was able to withdraw about 4 qt of turbid runnings between both pullings, but they weren't enough to raise my mash to mashout temperatures when I added them back in. Is this going to detrimentally affect the amount of starch available?

you should have been able to pull more but it should be fine if you didn't mash out

4) Would it be possible to use a single infusion schedule to replicate the turbid mash wort composition? I was thinking a simple 50/50 Pils/wheat grist with a mash at 158.

yes, no, maybe. The turbid mash is just something the lambic Brewers did to max out their small mash tuns. You could probably just infusion mash and be fine. Some of my batches of "lambic" are simple infusions and they taste fine. The extended long boil is where I found more difference in the process. You could always pull runnings After 10-15 minutes and heat those up to 170 and kill conversion. Then add that back out at mash out to increase the unconverted starch lever.

my biggest feedback is keep the fermenting beer cool so it doesn't get too sour. Cantillon is not climate controlled but the building stays pretty cool all year long on most floors. Drie has climate control cellars, I pretty sure oude beersel does as well. My first try the beer came out super tart, I left it to ferment upstairs where it reaches above 75 most of the year. All my susiquent batches have been kept in the basement where it never gets above 68. The diacital takes a lot longer to clear up but the bugs work slower giving all the bugs time to work on the sugars creating a more balanced beer.

 

[specharka]

1) I had an extremely difficult time getting an accurate mash temperature reading due to the super thick mash (0.3 qt/lb). Is it really necessary to perform an acid rest and mash so thickly?

if you did you calculations right the temperature should have been fine, yes it's kinda important to do an acid rest with the raw wheat. You don't have to mash soo thick but then you would skew all the water additions down the road. I normally have to add another quart of water to get the grains mixed in properly on my system


2) I had an even harder time trying to hit subsequent mash temperatures. The schedule calls for 113-137-150-162-168, and I might have gotten 113-136-148-158-162 with luck. No matter how much water I seemed to add, I was always a few degrees short -- probably from thermal losses.

i usually have the same issue I mash in a 15g Blichman un insulated mash tun. I always draw off all the fluids and add the boiling water and it helps to hit the temps better, everyone's system is different. The only rest you were way off on was the mash out, it won't be a big deal

3) I was able to withdraw about 4 qt of turbid runnings between both pullings, but they weren't enough to raise my mash to mashout temperatures when I added them back in. Is this going to detrimentally affect the amount of starch available?

you should have been able to pull more but it should be fine if you didn't mash out

4) Would it be possible to use a single infusion schedule to replicate the turbid mash wort composition? I was thinking a simple 50/50 Pils/wheat grist with a mash at 158.

yes, no, maybe. The turbid mash is just something the lambic Brewers did to max out their small mash tuns. You could probably just infusion mash and be fine. Some of my batches of "lambic" are simple infusions and they taste fine. The extended long boil is where I found more difference in the process. You could always pull runnings After 10-15 minutes and heat those up to 170 and kill conversion. Then add that back out at mash out to increase the unconverted starch lever.

my biggest feedback is keep the fermenting beer cool so it doesn't get too sour. Cantillon is not climate controlled but the building stays pretty cool all year long on most floors. Drie has climate control cellars, I pretty sure oude beersel does as well. My first try the beer came out super tart, I left it to ferment upstairs where it reaches above 75 most of the year. All my susiquent batches have been kept in the basement where it never gets above 68. The diacital takes a lot longer to clear up but the bugs work slower giving all the bugs time to work on the sugars creating a more balanced beer.

Thank you so much for your feedback. I'm familiar with how tart beers can get with elevated temperature (after mistakenly taking a saison Brett to 85F). I've been keeping subsequent sours around 70-73F, hopefully that's not too high.

In all honesty I don't know that I'll be making many more turbid mash beers, but I really appreciate the insights.