Decoction Mash on a single infusion system

[BugAC]

I've been having some temperature issues when attempting decoction and turbid mash's. I have a single infusion system (SS Brewtech's InfuSSion Mast Tun) and i've been doing turbid mash's and partial decoction mash's with the same temperature problems. My latest attempt was a munich helles with a hochkurz mash which is a sort of quick decoction. For a 5 gallon batch, i pulled off 1.1 gallons of the mash and boiled for 10 minutes, then added back to the mash tun. The readout via beersmith, was supposed to come back with a mash temp after the decoction of 160, however my actual temp was 150. I've had the same issues doing multistep turbid mash "decoctions". I can never quite hit all my final mash numbers. Anyone else have these issues and how did you solve them. The beer tastes fine but is drier than i expected. It finished at 1.005 rather than 1.011.

 

[kevin58]

When I do a decoction on my AIO (or any system really) I pull 1/3 of the mash which would be more than 1.1 gallons. If you haven't tweaked and fine tuned your profiles in Beersmith it will not give you accurate estimates. Also, just because SS Brewtech labels their mash tun "InfuSsion" doesn't mean it can only be used for a single infusion mash technique. Decoction and turbid mash techniques take place in another vessel outside the main mash tun ...while hochkurz is more of a step mash procedure which requires that you have the means to raise the mash temp.

 

[BugAC]

When I do a decoction on my AIO (or any system really) I pull 1/3 of the mash which would be more than 1.1 gallons. If you haven't tweaked and fine tuned your profiles in Beersmith it will not give you accurate estimates. Also, just because SS Brewtech labels their mash tun "InfuSsion" doesn't mean it can only be used for a single infusion mash technique. Decoction and turbid mash techniques take place in another vessel outside the main mash tun ...while hochkurz is more of a step mash procedure which requires that you have the means to raise the mash temp.

Well 1.1 was about 1/3 of the 3.7 gallons of water in the mash. Not sure what teh total grain + water volume is, however. I'll look at the markings inside.

...while hochkurz is more of a step mash procedure which requires that you have the means to raise the mash temp.

I'm pretty sure hochkurz is a type of decoction mash. Step mash, you don't remove a portion of the mash and boil, you are just raising temperature. Regardless, i have a brewhardware hot rod heat stick i use for warming up my mash water. I've never used it to heat up the mash, as i was afraid of scorching the grains. Maybe i'll try that next time, and with my turbid mashes as well.

 

[BigEd]

You're not puling enough material for the decoction. 1/3 of the total mash weight is where to start, not just the water. The majority of the pull should be grain not liquid as much of the enzyme content is in solution and you want to preserve it as much as possible. Hochkurz is a stepped infusion mash not a version of a decoction. To help prevent scorching you can start with a little extra plain water in your decoction vessel and stir constantly.

 

[Sammy86]

Here is an article on Hochkruz Mashing

Short and High: The Hochkurz Mash

I've been using this method for more than a year now for all my German style brews.

 

[hottpeper13]

The same thing happens to me sometimes,mostly in winter when my brewery is at or below 55*. i think it's because I can't keep the cooler mash tun at the initial mash in temp,therefore adding boiled anything won't get it up. All the info for decoction mashing says to have boiling water for infusing into the main mash to hold temp.

 

[JohnDBrewer]

I've had the same issue with BeerSmith - perform a decoction and dump it back in, but the temp never gets to the calculated temp according to BS. I can easily apply heat to my mash so I just assumed I was doing something wrong on BS setup. I also have a RIMS, so the mash does not lose any heat while decorating. I need to take a closer look at this now as I do several decoction a year.

 

[T Murph]

I am preparing to make a Czeck Pilsner and I want to attempt doing a triple decoction type mash using my HERMS coil in my HTL tank to increase temps. My liquor tank holds a sufficient amount of water and is relatively easy to maintain set temperatures. I just have to learn temperature and time of recirculation to achieve my goal. If it doesn't seem to be working out I will then revert back to the normal decoction method. If it works out I'll post my results.

 

[Deadalus]

I am preparing to make a Czeck Pilsner and I want to attempt doing a triple decoction type mash using my HERMS coil in my HTL tank to increase temps. My liquor tank holds a sufficient amount of water and is relatively easy to maintain set temperatures. I just have to learn temperature and time of recirculation to achieve my goal. If it doesn't seem to be working out I will then revert back to the normal decoction method. If it works out I'll post my results.

I may be misunderstanding you but if you are not removing part of the mash and boiling it, what it sounds like you are attempting is a stepped temperature mash. My understanding of dectoction mashing is dated (haven't read up on it recently) but I athink there are differences due to the removed mash being heated differently.

 

[Deadalus]

I've been having some temperature issues when attempting decoction and turbid mash's. I have a single infusion system (SS Brewtech's InfuSSion Mast Tun) and i've been doing turbid mash's and partial decoction mash's with the same temperature problems. My latest attempt was a munich helles with a hochkurz mash which is a sort of quick decoction. For a 5 gallon batch, i pulled off 1.1 gallons of the mash and boiled for 10 minutes, then added back to the mash tun. The readout via beersmith, was supposed to come back with a mash temp after the decoction of 160, however my actual temp was 150. I've had the same issues doing multistep turbid mash "decoctions". I can never quite hit all my final mash numbers. Anyone else have these issues and how did you solve them. The beer tastes fine but is drier than i expected. It finished at 1.005 rather than 1.011.

As mentioned, it's probably that your removed amount is off as well as your equipment profile may need tweeking. You can even set the air temperature different I'm pretty sure I just did that recently in Beersmith, as well as your intial grain temperatures. The removed mash is also kind of variable in that did you actually get exactly one third and was it mostly grain as already noted. If you are scooping it out into a pot vs using a graduated pitcher, it's easy to be off as I've done it myself.

 

[doug293cz]

I may be misunderstanding you but if you are not removing part of the mash and boiling it, what it sounds like you are attempting is a stepped temperature mash. My understanding of dectoction mashing is dated (haven't read up on it recently) but I athink there are differences due to the removed mash being heated differently.

Correct. A decoction is removing a fraction of the mash from the mash tun, boiling it separately, and then adding the boiled portion back into the mash tun, in order to raise the temperature of the mash. If you raise the temperature of the mash by any other method (adding water hotter than the current mash temp, applying heat to the mash tun, etc.) you are not doing a decoction.

Decoction is a way to do a step mash, but not all step mashes are decoctions.

Brew on

 

[T Murph]

@Deadalus you are absolutely correct. I just want to see how my homemade electric MLT can handle the task. I have always done the typical triple decoction when making a Czeck Pils but my liquor tank can heat up so quickly I think it is worth a try. Is it just an infusion mash? Basically yes it is but I think outside the box. And I believe I can attain good results this way without the extra work or the risk of scorching or darkening effects. We'll see how it turns out and I'll report back. I had planned this brew today but due to a canine family member medical emergency I now have to reschedule to next week.

 

[JohnDBrewer]

So it is a step mash.

 

[MicroMickey]

Have you really thought of the various ways to accomplish a decoction mash?
Here's something a bit out of the normal.
https://crescentcitybrewtalk.com/pressure-cooker-decoction/

 

[T Murph]

That process is very intriguing how ever I'm doing something different trying to obtain the same basic results. Also I want to see how light I can get the color while still getting the same enzymatic reactions. It's a test.

 

[doug293cz]

Have you really thought of the various ways to accomplish a decoction mash?
Here's something a bit out of the normal.
https://crescentcitybrewtalk.com/pressure-cooker-decoction/

This is great for anyone who wants to make a long brew day longer, and use more energy (fuel/electricity) while doing it. You have added time and energy to heat to 250°F vs. 212°F, then you have more added time to cool the pressure cooker down to 212°F so it can be opened safely, and the extra energy you used to get to 250°F just goes to waste. The boiled mash you add back to the main mash still gets added back at a temp no higher than 212°F, just like a traditional decoction. You may get equivalent amounts of Maillard reaction products with shorter decoction boil times, compared to a non-pressurized decoction boil, but is there a net time or energy savings? - I doubt it.

Brew on