Trying to brew with coopers kits

[Sansnom]

Hi all.

I'm trying to get into home brewing, but I haven't had the best of luck so far. My first attempt was back in 2013 and it didn't go so well. I tried 6 times and gave up, the worst batches were infected and the other batches had an off taste that I just cannot place.

To date, I've only been trying to brew with Coopers kits. Last month I decided to give it another go, since I already have all the equipment from the last time I tried. I went to a brewing supply store and picked up a Coopers Canadian Blonde kit with some Dextrose and DME. This time, I decided to use bottled water and instead of using bleach to sanitize, like instructions say I got some metabisulfite to use instead. I brewed it with 500g of dextrose and 500g of DME, to see if the off taste I keep getting is due to the sugar. Unfortunately, it still developed that off taste.

I think my sanitizing method is fine, I don't think it's infected. I actually have a few bottles of beer left over from the last time I tried brewing, so I decided to crack one open and see what 3 years of sitting in a bottle did to it, amazingly it still tasted exactly the same as when it came out of the fermentor. It was perfectly carbonated, it didn't gush and the beer was clear as water. It even tasted like beer, but it still has that off taste.

I was checking my local classifieds one day and found someone that was selling a bunch of equipment, so I got into contact with the person and found out that they had been brewing Coopers for many years, he swore by it and said it made great beer. I asked him if I could try a sample of his brew, when I tried it I came to the conclusion that it has that exact same taste mine has, but he seems to love it.

Here's some of the details from the last batch I tried to brew:

*Brand new fermentor and airlock, sanitized with metabisulfite and rinsed with boiled water.
*The wort was 70F when I pitched the yeast
*The room temp where I kept the fermentor was kept at 65F
*Fermentation became vigorous after about 20 hours
*I bottled it on day 9, the OG was 1.040 and the FG was 1.011

I just tried a bottle today, the off taste is there but it's fairly drinkable, it's perfectly carbonated, has a nice head and is already very clear.

I'm thinking it's the yeast that's the culprit for the off flavour, but maybe I'm wrong. The best way I can discribe the taste is almost like a white wine or a cider, a little tart. The taste seems to be related to the smell that comes out of the airlock, which is like green apples.

It's driving me nuts, I'm ready to try a different brand (or method) but I'd seriously like to know if this "taste" is just standard for Coopers products or if it's something that I'm doing wrong. So I guess my question is, does Coopers have a unique taste or is it something that I'm doing wrong? Sorry for the wall of text, I just want to figure out of it's the product or my method that needs improvment.

Cheers!

 

[Sadu]

I did 2 coopers batches when I started recently and just put down 2 more. I think the kits are ok and any off-flavours are probably due to process (all fixable).

For sanitation, especially if you have had sanitation issues, just go get yourself a small bottle of Starsan and a spray bottle now. It's just so quick and easy, and a bottle will last for many many batches. It's one inexpensive purchase that you will not regret.

I believe green apples is a signal of infection, haven't come across this personally though.

65f is a good termperature to use for these kits. Do you have a way of measuring the beer temp, as opposed to the room temp? If you are getting a vigourous ferment then it's likely the beer is warmer than the room by a good bit. A stick-on thermometer is ok, a probe inside the beer is better. You can get thermometer probes off Aliexpress for $3 including shipping (plus you need a 12v power adaptor), there is no reason to not have one of these. Put the probe in your beer and at a glance you can see exactly what temp you are getting. Harsh alcohol flavours and homebrewey taste is another sign that the fermentation temps could be a bit high.

My first Coopers lager had a bit of a funny aftertaste, and I know the temps were all over the place with this batch.

Coopers kits do well as a Toucan - use 2 cans of Coopers instead of one can + 1 kilo of dry. Costs slightly more, you end up with 100% malt so you can rule out fermentable sugars as the source of the problem. You can't taste the extra hops if you choose lighter styles.

 

[flars]

I would not use the metabisulfite, whether potassium metabisulfite or sodium metabisulfite. Metabisulfite for sanitizing is usually associated with winemaking. This could be the reason for the off taste.

Another possibility is bottling to early. The green apple flavor can come from a unfinished beer. Basically to short of time in the fermentor.

Try using Star San for a no rinse sanitizer. PBW or unscented Oxy Clean for a cleaner. Both of these need heavy rinsing before sanitizing.

Stay with distilled water or RO water for your next brew.

Plan to have your beer in the primary for at least 18 days even if FG is reached in 6 days. The yeast needs this time to clean up natural off flavors of fermentation and for the excess yeast and sediment to drop out.

There could be more reasons for off flavors but looking at this is just a start to solving your problem.

 

[CU_tony]

Both of my suggestions have been made.

Sanitation wise, scrub it clean (be gentle with plastics so you dont scratch it because that will harbor bacteria) then rinse and spray or soak in star san
I normally make 1-2 gallons of star san, soak the small bits like airlocks and stoppers till I need them, anything that you have cleaned you can rinse with the star san and keep using it (and even keep between batches) as long as it doesnt get cloudy.

Also, I have only been brewing a little bit, however my first kit's instructions said to ferment for a full two weeks, my first recipe said to ferment for 3 weeks, so I have been aiming towards the three weeks on a yeast cake after reading numerous articles debating racking to a 2nd and letting it ride

Ive tasted two batches that were fermented for 2-3 weeks and then conditioned in bottles for 3 weeks and neither have had any off flavors that Ive been able to discern yet (which even if i have a bum tongue, im still happy!)

 

[Sansnom]

Thanks for the replies!

I would love to get some star san, unfortunately it's not available in my area. The closest place that stocks it is a 2 hour round trip for me, but I'm going to get some for my next attempt. As for the metabisulfite, it's pretty much the only thing my local brewing supply stores stock, which isn't suprising because they really only seem to cater to wine making, the beer making is really an afterthought for them.

I'm not sure what temperature the wort is fermenting at, but I know I need to figure out a way to monitor it, I'm kinda skeptical about those stick on thermometers, are they really very accurate?

I don't think the off flavour is being caused by the metabisulfite, because it was there when I tried sanitizing with bleach. I rinsed the fermenter out very well with freshly boiled water, because that stuff smells nasty.

The guy who let me sample his Coopers brew said he left his in the fermentor for 3 weeks to let it clear up, the taste was still there but it was fairly mellow compared to some of my eariler brews, either way, I will leave it in the bucket longer. It seems like everyone has a different way of doing things, I've gotten a lot of conflicting advice from people who brew. The guy who gave me the sample said my room temperature was the same as what he brewed at, another guy told me that it was way too cold and I should have the room temp at about 75F! I've been told to leave it in the primary until I'm ready to bottle, but I've also been told that I must put it into a secondary after it ferments to "get it off of the yeast cake".

The bottled water I used was just your standard spring water, it's a really decent tasting water, I drink it all the time. My tap water smells like a public swimming pool, so I figured it would be a bad idea to use that.

So, changes to make so far:

* Get some Star-san and PBW or Oxy-clean
* Let it sit longer in the fermenter
* Figure out what temp it's fermenting at

I did have 2 infections out of the 8 batches I've made so far, but they were easily explainable (in my opinion):

1st infection was the first batch I brewed, I decided to be cheap (always a bad idea) and got my first fermenter from a friend who tried and failed at brewing, there were some scratches in it and the beer quickly turned into vinagar.

2nd infection was my 4th and most promising attempt, it was about 7 days in and the smell from the airlock was great! it smelled just like beer should! Tragically my cat for some reason decided it would be awesome to take a nap on top of the fermentor, he knocked the bung and air lock off and all kinds of cat hair got into it, it didn't taste or smell so good after about a day. This was a Coopers plisner kit.

One more thing I didn't mention, I brewed another kit after I bottled the batch in question. It's a Thomas Coopers Wheat kit. I made it with 500g DME and 400g Dextrose and made it a 20L batch instead of 23L. I checked the coopers site and apparently it comes with a different ale yeast made by a 3rd party. It's at day 7 now and the smell from the airlock is very promising! I haven't opened it yet and will probably just leave it for now. This is why I'm wondering if it was to do with the yeast, since this kit came with something different, but maybe it isn't. I made it with the exact same process I did with the last batch, with the only real difference being that I pitched the yeast at 75F instead of 70F. The fermentation was vigorous after about 10 hours. Maybe this will be my first sucessful batch? If it is, I need to figure out why!

Thanks for the advice so far!

 

[Sadu]

Stick-ons are fine if that's all you have. They are accurate to within a couple of degrees, which is fine for a Coopers kit.

Starsan should be available online somewhere surely? I don't have a homebrew store in my town either, but can get anything I need online.

 

[CU_tony]

Try looking online, you should be able to get star san from amazon for pretty cheap!

Stick on thermometer is more accurate than none, right?

To be fair, rinsing a sanitized anything with water is only as safe as the water. IE if you did not sterilize the water, it very well may introduce the chance of infection. Star san is a no-rinse sanitizer and any of the foam that gets into wort will break down into yeast nutrients (or so ive heard)

Many discussions can be had about when or if to rack to a secondary, I have been happy with ~3weeks for my batches, your mileage may vary.
Beer has been made for 1000's of years all across the globe, there are thousands of varieties and methods for making beer not necessarily one right or wrong way (yea, I know thats not helpful "advice")

I would recommend RO water instead of spring water, search the forums for some VERY long running debates on that subject matter, but spring water has minerals in it, and those may or may not be the minerals you want, and may or may not vary from bottle to bottle. RO at least 'should' be a good clean BASE that you can add to, and you already made a good call on not using tap water that doesnt smell or taste good.

Both infection stories definitely sound like you found (the main) culprit to blame

DONT OPEN THE BUCKET!!! resist the temptation as that is a great way to let something into your nice smelling batch.
I only have done one batch of Mr Beer and then years later came back with a BIAB kit and have loved it! that being said, you will likely have a little higher OG and maybe a little higher abv since its more concentrated than intended, shouldnt be a train wreck though.

Kit yeast is the source of a LOT of issues that Ive seen on the forums, check the dates on kits, a clearance kit that is old will have a lot less viable yeast left alive in the packet to ferment vs a new kit. If you have an old packet of yeast you can always buy a new yeast that you are 'more' certain will be viable and healthy enough to attenuate fully.

Lord, that probably looks like a pile of lingual vomit up there. Keep in mind I AM NOT AN EXPERT... I just simply have too much time to peruse the forums and have gleaned a lot of information here is hopefully helpful

 

[Sansnom]

I looked at ordering Star-San online, the shipping cost would be roughly the same as it would cost in gas for me to take my 5-speed Focus to the city and buy it. Another benefit to getting it in the city is that it's at a big brewing supply store, so they have lots of other fun stuff to look at while I'm there! Sometimes it sucks to live in Canada, especially if you live out in the middle of nowhere like I do.

 

[flars]

Are you pitching 11 grams of dry yeast for a 19 to 23 liter brew. The 6 gram packs with some kits may be under pitching.

I would pitch the yeast at 60°F to 64°F and let the temperature of the fermenting beer rise no higher than 68°F. Off flavors can begin developing when ale yeasts are fermented in the low 70° range. Fusel alcohols can be produced in the mid 70°s and higher.

 

[worlddivides]

I recommend buying StarSan online. A lot of online brewing shops have free shipping for orders over a certain amount of money. So, maybe buy your next beer kit, ingredients, and so on, along with the biggest (i.e. most expensive) container of StarSan. If you don't use a cleaner, I recommend buying a thing of PBW online as well. Online shops generally have a different amount for the free shipping, but it's usually between $50 and $75 (I don't think I've ever seen one above $75). So, I'd say just buy other things you'll need with the StarSan and you'll save the money in shipping, etc.

 

[Sansnom]

Are you pitching 11 grams of dry yeast for a 19 to 23 liter brew. The 6 gram packs with some kits may be under pitching.

I would pitch the yeast at 60°F to 64°F and let the temperature of the fermenting beer rise no higher than 68°F. Off flavors can begin developing when ale yeasts are fermented in the low 70° range. Fusel alcohols can be produced in the mid 70°s and higher.

I was just pitching the whole pack that came with the kit. I believe that they come with a 7g pack. Last time I was at the brew store I picked up a 15g pack of Coopers yeast and an 11g pack of Lallemand Danstar Nottingham Ale yeast, just for the heck of it. I haven't used them yet.

 

[Yooper]

I've posted about this before, but when I was early in my brewing hobby, I tried a couple of Cooper's kits. I could NOT make anything more than barely drinkable with them.

While I hate to bash a product, I almost quit brewing because I thought homebrew was terrible. I did everything "right", but it still was not good beer.

I'd suggest trying a couple of things. The first is to get a kit with fresh grains, dry extract, hops and good ale yeast (not Cooper's- it's very woody tasting to me). Use reverse osmosis water, or distilled water, and boil it according to the directions except for one which is to add the majority of the extract at the end of the boil (we'll help you with that). Ferment it at 65 degrees, and no higher, and bottle at about day 14 if you have stable gravity readings. See how it comes out.

I think the RO water, the good quality ingredients, and the fermentation temperature will give you a good product.

 

[Sansnom]

I've posted about this before, but when I was early in my brewing hobby, I tried a couple of Cooper's kits. I could NOT make anything more than barely drinkable with them.

While I hate to bash a product, I almost quit brewing because I thought homebrew was terrible. I did everything "right", but it still was not good beer.

I'd suggest trying a couple of things. The first is to get a kit with fresh grains, dry extract, hops and good ale yeast (not Cooper's- it's very woody tasting to me). Use reverse osmosis water, or distilled water, and boil it according to the directions except for one which is to add the majority of the extract at the end of the boil (we'll help you with that). Ferment it at 65 degrees, and no higher, and bottle at about day 14 if you have stable gravity readings. See how it comes out.

I think the RO water, the good quality ingredients, and the fermentation temperature will give you a good product.

I think that just for the heck of it, I might try something other than Coopers for my next attempt, just to see how that goes. Do you have any suggestions for a good kit that would be easy for me to start with? If you prefer not to promote brands on the forum, you could even shoot me a PM. I think Brewers Best is available in one of the cities near me, but I don't know if they're any good.

 

[Yooper]

I think that just for the heck of it, I might try something other than Coopers for my next attempt, just to see how that goes. Do you have any suggestions for a good kit that would be easy for me to start with? If you prefer not to promote brands on the forum, you could even shoot me a PM. I think Brewers Best is available in one of the cities near me, but I don't know if they're any good.

Brewer's Best are pretty decent, but the problem may be freshness in them. They use canned extract, some crushed grains, hops and yeast. Which is fine, but they may have been sitting around a long time. do you have any homebrew type stores where you can get something fresher?

 

[Sansnom]

Brewer's Best are pretty decent, but the problem may be freshness in them. They use canned extract, some crushed grains, hops and yeast. Which is fine, but they may have been sitting around a long time. do you have any homebrew type stores where you can get something fresher?

There's one that sells hops, extracts and "Bulk Grains" in 25kg bags, I'm not sure if they sell smaller quantities, I would have to call them tommorow and see, I was just checking out their website. I went to a place in another city last week that was more of a "brew on premise" type of store, he said he could sell me the ingredients for recipes starting at $25. Maybe I should look into what he sells.

Some of the things I have yet to invest in is a big pot and wort chiller, the biggest pot I currently own is 2 gallons. I don't think my stove would support much more than that, it struggles to bring 2 gallons of water to a boil. I'm willing to invest more time and money to make this work, but the info out there is a little overwhelming so I'm not sure what to try.

 

[CU_tony]

Yooper is right, fresh ingredients are the only way to go. You cant make good food out of expired products, and you wont make good beer out of old ingredients be it grain, extract, or yeast.

I currently buy my ingredients from a LHBS in a large city and have faith that they move enough product that Im buying reasonably fresh products..
I would definitely recommend buying a bigger pot soon. Even for 1 gallon BIAB batches I was glad to have my 4 gallon BK, and last week I pushed the limit bringing 3 gallons to a roiling boil on a propane burner, and I was constantly having to tweak the regulator to avoid a boil over.

That being said, in my experience the kitchen sink with ice is only semi-reasonable up to around 2 gallons into the fermentor and even then its a bit of a slow process even with stirring.
I was fortunate enough to find out that one of my friends used to homebrew and still had a copper immersion chiller that I could borrow until they wanted to brew again! Simply put, its amazing and I will cry when they ask for it back. Then I will head to hardware store and buy the mats to build one myself!

Honestly the direction you head is up to you and what you want to get out of it.

I started with a 1 gallon kit, and quickly bought a 2nd 1 gallon carboy... then I bought more. Thsi past week I just acquired my 2nd free 5 gal carboy so I am just now preparing to breach that realm. Though I know I need a larger BK, I am mildly upset because I JUST punched a hole in my 4 gal stockpot for a thermometer bulkhead, and now I want to upgrade T_T

 

[Sadu]

I have a 10G pot and a 14G pot. I love the utility of having both, even for BIAB. But I think the OP said the stove burner was the bottleneck, and that definitely puts a limit on what size boil you can do. I just went from 6 to 10 gallons and can't believe how much harder it is to heat the water. Brewday took a lot longer.

 

[unionrdr]

I've done quite a bit with Cooper's kits. The small 7g yeast packets perform a bit better after being rehydrated. The 15g Cooper's ale yeast packets I've found online ( Midwest & Northern Brewer) here in the USA were way fresher than the7g packets in the can's false lids. At any rate, rehydrating dry yeast can cut lag time if pitched within 10 degrees of wort temp.
I used my All-Temp laser thermometer to test the temps on the stick-on temp strips I typically use, & found them to be within .2-.3 of a degree of the readings on the laser thermometer. So they're pretty accurate for our uses.
And from my observations/tinkering's, Cooper's ale yeast gets sluggish at temps below 63-64F. It seems to like 65-68F. But it will produce some nondescript fruity esters. It's the nature of the English-derived yeast. If you want to try a different yeast, but stay with an English sort that's close, but better, S-04 ale yeast is another good one for English-style beers.
I use the same 20qt (5 USG) stainless steel stock pot I started with. And since it was part of a nested set with polished lids & steamer trays, I borrow from my wife the smaller pots for batch, or " dunk" sparging grains for partial mash or all grain beers. It works just as well for all extract brews as well.
Brewers Best kits can be hit or miss, depending on how long they've sat on the shelf of the particular vendor. I've added light or extra light DME from Munton's with an ounce or two of hops to a Cooper's can to improve them. Especially the Original Series, often referred to simply as " OS (name)"All the OS Cooper's cans come with ale yeast & bittering only. The OS lager, for example, I think needs an ounce of sterling or Czech saaz hops at 15 or 20 minutes left in the boil for a bit more balanced flavor. This kit is OK with the recommended amount of dextrose in the recipe, as that's what it's designed for. Although, the Cooper's Brew Enhancer 2 is a bit better with the addition of a little light DME to the mix of dextrose & maltodextrin.
Or use the can of OS Draught with a 3lb bag of Munton's light DME & 2-3 ounces of citrusy hops, like cascade, Citra, & simcoe or the like @ 20, 15 & say 12 minutes left in the boil for flavor. 1lb of the DME per gallon of water in the boil for the hop additions, the rest at flame out with the Cooper's can. Top off to 23L with water chilled in the fridge after chilling the wort down to 75F or so. This should get the temp down to about 65F, a good internal temp for the yeasties. I test a bit with a hydrometer @ 10 to 14 days to see how close to done it is. It can well be done at that point. I've rehydrated Cooper's yeast & had a beer done & settling out clear in 10 days flat before. But distilled or RO water in your case, with mid 60's internal temps would help you out a lot.

 

[Sansnom]

Just a small update:

I went to a brewing supply store and they had Mangrove Jacks kits onsale, so I grabbed one and a new bucket. They didn't stock star-san so I'm going to go somewhere else and grab that before I brew this kit. If this doesn't work out, then maybe I'll look into getting a big pot and a better burner so I can do all grain or something. I have the coopers wheat ale in the bucket currently, I haven't touched it yet, the smell from the air lock is quite good so I'm cautiously optimistic about that one.

Thanks for all of the helpful advice!

 

[goodsuds]

I started off using Cooper's kits and made some decent beer with them. I think you'll find your beer will be vastly improved if you change your cleaning and sanitation techniques. Try cleaning with OneStep or PBW and sanitizing with StarSan. Also, if your brew water or bottled water was treated with chlorine or chloramine that will cause a plastic or band-aid off-flavor.

I ran into the latter when I first started b/c of chloramine. Chloramine won't boil off or evaporate like chlorine. You can remove both with metabisulfite, but, I still ran into weird flavors b/c of the water chemistry. Since the extract was made with a certain profile in mind the brewer at Cooper's already treated their water. The best water to use when doing extract brews is distilled water. You're going to spend a few bucks extra for each batch, but, your beer will be MUCH better.

Hope that helps.

 

[goodsuds]

Oh, I forgot to mention, use a different yeast. I know unionrdr likes their yeast and has had good success with it, but I've had better luck with Nottingham or US-05. I've had a few batches of Cooper's turn out okay with their yeast, but you have to be really good when bottling the beer and then pouring to be sure you don't pour any sediment. It tastes like rubber (and no, it wasn't autolyzed) and isn't a pleasant flavor at all.

 

[Kjay]

Hey sansnom have you checked out shortfingerbrewing or ontariobeerkegs? Both have a website with reasonable shipping and are also from southern Ontario. I use shortfinger for mostly everything with the exception of blichmann stuff.

 

[unionrdr]

If it's throwing rubbery flavors, the initial temp in primary was too high, the yeast used was old & pitched dry, which will give questionable results. Cooper's yeast gives nondescript fruity esters, being an English witbred strain. So S-04 would be a better substitute, in my opinion. And I always rehydrate dry yeasts, especially with smaller packets, like the 7g Cooper's. Then it'll perform every bit as well as US-05 pitched dry. And yes, I do know that from a side-by-side test...