Three strikes! (Sour Beer)

[DetroitOS]

This is old hat for most of you, should be for me too, but I have some questions I need answers to.

I've been brewing for around 3 years now and lately am discouraged with results of a brew I've done 5-6 times at least. It's a British Ale (BASS ALE clone) I purchase from a local shop. The first few times I used the recipe it turned out great, actually better than BASS ALE IMO and a brew I could enjoy each day.

The last three batches however have come up short and in two cases so bad I could not stand to smell or drink it, nothing worse than putting your time and money into a brew only to find it's sour smelling and tasting.

The first few times I brewed it I used Iodophor to sanitize my equipment, boiled my water before topping off my carboy and went straight from the primary to the soda keg. The beer was great until I changed things up a little.

Lately I've been using Saniclean to sanitize my equipment, topping off my wort with two to three gallons of fresh water from the tap ( I was told SE Michigan water is clean enough that you don't need to boil it) and transferring to a secondary after two weeks in the primary. It's when I started doing things this way I noticed a sour smell and sour taste (sour on the sides of my tongue) and so unpleasant I can't stand to drink it.

Any ideas what might be causing the sour taste/possible infection? BTW I'm meticulous in soaking/cleaning every part of my equipment.

 

[TopherM]

It is REALLY hard to ruin a beer. You said you are giving it two weeks in the primary, then transferring to secondary. How long are you leaving in secondary, and how long are you letting it bottle condition. What is the ambient temperature of the room where you ferment?

Doesn't sound like an infection at all. Sounds like you are probably fermenting at a relatively high temp (ambient 68F+) and not giving them enough time to ferment and condition.

Hope you aren't throwing these batches away. With a little more time and patience, they are probably good beer!

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

What's the lag time the yeast takes to start fermenting? Are you pitching enough yeast? What's your procedure for racking to secondary? And where in your house do you transfer? Simply contacting the air can contaminate or aerate your beer, but it's unlikely, but possible.... And what you're describing sounds like and infection or the wort spoiling prior to yeast fermentation. More info would help....

 

[DetroitOS]

I've always placed the carboys in my basement (65-70F) and allowed two weeks in primary and one to two weeks in secondary. I transfer from primary to secondary to soda keg using racking cane all done in the basement trying for minimal splash/aeration. I'm always careful to sanitize each item when transferring. After transferring to the soda keg I force carbonate at 30PSI for 24 hours with the keg in my mini fridge. A little anxious I suppose but I usually try my first glass 24-36 hours after transferring to the soda keg. Unfortunately yes I've been dumping a good amount of beer but I can't get past the sour taste. With only two soda kegs I hate to tie up my equipment waiting/hoping for improvement. You would think after a few years I'd learn patience but...

I've been using dry yeast and always get action in less than 24 hours.

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

Hmm, what kinda shape is your primary bucket (if it's a bucket)? Or your cane and siphon hose? Plastic can have tiny scratches in it that could harbor bugs even after sanitizing. Have you had visible signs of infection? I think it'd be rare with dry yeast and proper sanitization, but something could be getting at it.
You said you recently switched to tap water? Maybe try going back to your old method of topping off and see what happens....

 

[DetroitOS]

Primary is a six gallon carboy. Cane and hose are actually newer, first one broke, and all is clean. There were no visible signs of infection at all and in fact the smell and initial taste is good. Makes me think there's something happening when I transfer to the soda keg?! I don't know but I guess what it comes down to is going back to what worked before. Next time I will boil my top off water and see if that does anything.

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

I'm guessin if the issues started when you changed thing, they'll stop when you change back. Odd that it tastes good going into the keg. I'm assuming your kegs as clean as everything else.

 

[TopherM]

So you're talking 2 weeks in primary, 2 weeks in secondary, 68-70 degree fermentation temps, then 24 hours in keg. You are rushing these beers. 4 weeks would be fine if EVERYTHING else was perfect, but it's never going to be.....they just need a little more time!

Sounds to me like you are fermenting a little hot, causing esters, which are often described as sour or vingary. Remember that fermentation temps INSIDE the primary are going to be 5-10 degrees warmer than the ambient temp.

Esters mellow out with about 2-4 EXTRA weeks of conditioning time. You have probably been dumping perfectly good beer that just wasn't fully conditioned.

If I were you, on your next batch just leave it in primary for 4 weeks total (for an average gravity beer) then either transfer to the keg and let it sit for an additional 2-3 weeks at room temp.

THEN refridgerate and force carb. I perfer to force carb at serving temp (8-12 psi) for about 10-14 days, but if you want to blitz it with 30 psi, go for it. By the way, undiluted carbination also has a sour taste, so your flash force carbing could be the taste issue as well if the carbination is not fully diluted!

Anyway, just hearing your process, those are two BIG pitfalls that could have lead to your sour taste, and most likely one of them is your problem. The chances that you have an infection are pretty slim. Slowwww it down and have a little patience and you'll be rewarded. Most of all, STOP DUMPING BEER!!!

 

[geneb]

When was the last time you cleaned your keg lines?

 

[bruin_ale]

Have to disagree with Topher.. this does sound like an infection. Esthers and phenols that would be created by fermenting too hot are not sour or vinegary, they range from fruity (banana) to medicinal (band-aid).
Those will mellow with time, but sourness and vinegar flavors are usually infections and will get worse with time (ie. more sour). My guess is that it's caused by not boiling the top-off water, but around here we have so much chloramine and/or chlorine in the water than no bacteria could survive - not sure how your water is treated to remove bacteria.

 

[scinerd3000]

+1, most likley not esters, especially at 69deg although he has a point about the co2. Upon carbonation co2 mixed with water in the beer and turns into carbonic acid lending a "bite" to the beer. It takes a little time to hit equilibrium but if you have been brewing for 3 years most likely you have tasted this before....

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

Have to disagree with Topher.. this does sound like an infection. Esthers and phenols that would be created by fermenting too hot are not sour or vinegary, they range from fruity (banana) to medicinal (band-aid).
Those will mellow with time, but sourness and vinegar flavors are usually infections and will get worse with time (ie. more sour). My guess is that it's caused by not boiling the top-off water, but around here we have so much chloramine and/or chlorine in the water than no bacteria could survive - not sure how your water is treated to remove bacteria.

My guess too. Sour taste, especially starting in the keg, screams infection. Could be from water, or even just the lip of the faucet. The op claims good sanitation and said it started when he switched to tap water.
If it was esters, he definitely would've tasted them going into the keg!

 

[DetroitOS]

Thanks for the tips. I know the ester taste and have experienced that in other brews, this is definitely not an ester taste but a sour taste/smell. The apparent infection gets worse with time as I was able to enjoy this beer for the first two weeks it was in the keg.

BTW I clean my keg output line every time I keg. I will start putting my carboys on the basement floor to see if that will help cool them down more too.

As for the off flavor, it does get worse with time as this recent batch was good for a couple weeks and yesterday tasted sour. I'm going to go back to boiling all my water too and just take it back to what worked AND practice a little more patience.

 

[cosmo]

I think Tropher has good points and I would not rule out "green" beer too quickly. My beers always develop a harsh taste at about 3 weeks after brew day. It's kind of a cross between tart and astringent. I know it's not infection because it gradually goes away over the course of 2 or 3 months! It basically goes from nearly undrinkable to fantastic during that period. Just my experience. In this case it could be infection, but I wouldn't bet on it. Let it sit in the keg at room temp a few months and then taste it again. If it gets better, then it's not infected. It took me a long time to build up the patience to wait that long (about 100 batches). I learned my lesson.

 

[geer537]

Everyone has pretty much covered everything regarding you proccess up to the keg. Have you changed your beer line recently? How about taking apart your faucet?

I recently made a brown that usually turns out fantastic. My buddy come in town from Oregon (to CA) so I was eager to let him try it. He said it was a bit sour and was right. Then he took apart my faucet and cleaned every small nook and cranny of it. That seemed to clear it up.