The woes of a 120v brewer

[bfinleyui]

OK, so currently, I brew with propane. And it sucks.

I just finished my RIMS tube/panel build, waiting for more silicone hose to arrive to actually use it, but so far, it is very, very exciting.

So in looking into some things around my house (a duplex, built in 1992), it looks like the only two 240v circuits are the laundry room (entirely too small to brew in, it's situated basically in a hallway toward the downstairs bathroom), and the kitchen, which won't work either, as my range hood is not outside vented. Bah.

An early estimate from an electrician put the cost of running a new 240v circuit to the garage in the neighborhood of ~350 bucks. That's nutty.

I'll need to verify, but I believe I have two 120v 20a circuits relatively close together near my garage, to the point where a 15' run of 12-3 extension cord could reach my setup without issue.

Question is, is a pair of 120v 20a circuits going to be anywhere good enough to get this handled? Even two 240v 5500w sticks would still only give me ~2600w at 120v, which still, based on the heating spreadsheet I found on TEB, would be almost an hour to get 6 gallons to a boil...

Is there anything I can do here, or am I doomed to propane until we move (this is our first house, only planning to be here about 5 more years)?

Or, alternately, is anyone a licensed electrician in Eastern Iowa and want to do me a solid? lol

Thanks

 

[thekraken]

You could always use a heat stick to supplement your propane burner. What about the burner sucks so much?

As for the 2750w heating capacity, I have no idea.

 

[bfinleyui]

The extra heat given off by the burners, the cost of propane, being beholden to the wind/elements (if it's windy, it uses a lot more propane, even with a shield), not being able to dial things in as easily for a rolling boil (versus a big stain on my garage floor), etc.

 

[Mirilis]

I boil 7.5 gallons down to 6 for most of my recipes and I use 2x 1650W elements .. one is directly plugged into a 15a GFCI ciruit.. and the other is run through a controller i built in my link on a 20A circuit.

In my controller you can see its only pulling 13.8A so theres plenty of room for other things like my PC when I brew also.

I get a good boil with both of them on full power.

 

[FrozenOcean]

I brew in my garage with propane. I just open a window, open the car door halfway, and keep a CO detector with me at all times.

Solves a lot of those problems you described.

 

[bfinleyui]

I brew in my garage with propane. I just open a window, open the car door halfway, and keep a CO detector with me at all times.

Solves a lot of those problems you described.

Where are you from?

 

[bfinleyui]

I boil 7.5 gallons down to 6 for most of my recipes and I use 2x 1650W elements .. one is directly plugged into a 15a GFCI ciruit.. and the other is run through a controller i built in my link on a 20A circuit.

In my controller you can see its only pulling 13.8A so theres plenty of room for other things like my PC when I brew also.

I get a good boil with both of them on full power.

How long does it take to go from mash temps -> boil?

 

[thekraken]

Yeah, no doubt the heating elements are a lot more efficient. Good luck getting that sorted out.

In the mean time you could try to make your burner more efficient: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f253/saving-propane-time-while-winter-brewing-393425/

 

[JoshuaW]

Just an FYI, $350 isnt a bad price at all for that run, assuming it includes materials. If you are looking for an even better price, you can always checkout Craigslist. I found an electrician who did my 50amp circuit and put in a bathroom fan for about the same price (I paid for the fan).

 

[sandyeggoxj]

If you have 2 20 amp circuits then why not use 2000 watt elements from brew hardware? 4kw should be plenty.

 

[Mirilis]

How long does it take to go from mash temps -> boil?

Takes me 38-40 minutes to go from 59 to 160 for my strike water, and probably 15-20 to get to a boil from 153ish where I was mashing. To be honest once I lift the bag out I drink a beer and shoot the **** then look down and its boiling.

 

[Mirilis]

If you have 2 20 amp circuits then why not use 2000 watt elements from brew hardware? 4kw should be plenty.

Because I got mine for $9.99 each HERE

 

[mnherky]

I have a 20 gallon kettle with 2 2000w elements running on 2 20 amp circuits and boil 7 gallons without a problem

 

[soonerpike1748]

I brew with propane and 120V. I use propane for strike water, step mashing, and boiling. I use my 120V rims tube to maintain temps during mashing. It works really well (15 gallon batches), but I have to brew outside because of the propane.

 

[FrozenOcean]

Where are you from?

Canada. I was in Winnipeg last year, now in Calgary. Last year in Winnipeg I brewed at -30 deg C in my garage. This year in Calgary, winter has been way warmer. I've been able to mostly brew on my patio, at temperature typically above freezing.

 

[dlaramie08]

If you have 2 20 amp circuits ten you have more to work with than I do and I regularly make 6.5 gallon batches. I have 2 15 amp circuits and use 2 1500 watt heat sticks. It takes about the same amount of time to heat water as my propane did, once I insulated my vessels with reflectix. The time increase was maybe 10-20 minutes overall in a brew day, which is negligible and is justifiable considering I don't run out of electricity and I can brew in the relative heat of the garage in the winter.

 

[Rivenin]

i run 2x1500 elements in a 10 gallon kettle, mainly get about a 1.25g boil off in 60 minutes, brew day from setup to drinking a beer and all clean is about 5 hours or so... so right on par with propane.
Basically, 15-30 minutes into mash i flip the switches to my sparge water and it's usually heated up to 150-160 or so.
Plus side to this... being 1500w heaters, i can take it anywhere and plug it anywhere (and can get cheap portable GFCI protection) instead of hunting down 2 20amp circuits at someones house.

 

[bfinleyui]

i run 2x1500 elements in a 10 gallon kettle, mainly get about a 1.25g boil off in 60 minutes, brew day from setup to drinking a beer and all clean is about 5 hours or so... so right on par with propane.
Basically, 15-30 minutes into mash i flip the switches to my sparge water and it's usually heated up to 150-160 or so.
Plus side to this... being 1500w heaters, i can take it anywhere and plug it anywhere (and can get cheap portable GFCI protection) instead of hunting down 2 20amp circuits at someones house.

So you're running two 1500w off one 120v circuit? How? 1500w at 120v should be 12.5 amps each, meaning you'd need at least a 25 amp circuit, plus whatever for pumps/controllers/etc.

 

[N3Bruce]

One thing that can help you at the margins with an electric setup is insulating your kettle. For a couple of years I used an Electric Turkey Fryer (1650 watts) as my primary heater, along with 1500 watts on a hot plate. I used a metalized mylar foam based insulation I had left over from building my house to insulate both the outside of the turkey fryer and a 2 gallon pot I would heat on the hot plate. I would have used a more heat resistant material, but I had about 400 square feet of it laying around. I also insulated the cavity between the tub and the outside housing with fiberglass insulation. By reducing the radiant heat losses, it made all grain winter brewing in the basement viable, though not nearly as quick as Propane.

It may be a sin, but I used hot water from the tap at 130 degrees to give the kettle a head start, I would heat it to about 200 degrees and pump it into my Igloo Cooler HLT, then heat my strike water. After mashout, I would return the wort to the turkey fryer, and some into the 2 gallon pot. An hour later it would be boiling, and I would do my hop additions into the turkey fryer, and near knockout I would combine the two worts. Water in the water heater turns over every couple of days, and probably more often if you do laundry, run the dishwasher, and so on. I also run it through a carbon filter as well.
.
In the end, I decided to take the plunge and ran a 220 volt 30 amp line from the panel to where I want my brew stand, and outfitted an electric Keggle with a 5500 watt heating element with a controller. Love the new setup, but even DIY I have several hundred bucks invested just in materials. I can heat 6 gallons of water from 57 degrees to boiling in under a half hour. My Electric Turkey Fryer will for the time being double as a HLT, as it has a built in temperature control on it.

 

[Rivenin]

So you're running two 1500w off one 120v circuit? How? 1500w at 120v should be 12.5 amps each, meaning you'd need at least a 25 amp circuit, plus whatever for pumps/controllers/etc.

I wish i could do that, but it is off of 2 circuits but 2 15amp gfci circuits are easy to find in any house

 

[bfinleyui]

I wish i could do that, but it is off of 2 circuits but 2 15amp gfci circuits are easy to find in any house

Ah, OK. I understand now. Woof, numbers are hard.

 

[rudylyon57]

For my own use I made this simple spreadsheet to figure up heating times given volume, starting temp, ending temp and heat applied. I would post the excel file so anyone can customize it but we cannot post that file type.

View attachment WaterHeating.pdf

 

[bfinleyui]

So in summary, 2x 1500w is the best way to go, if you can get to 2 separate 120v circuits. Leaves room for other equipment on each circuit, even if you only get 15amps.

Guess it's time to start collecting stuff for another full-scale controller.

 

[wilserbrewer]

So in summary, 2x 1500w is the best way to go, if you can get to 2 separate 120v circuits.

I would advocate 2 x 2000w if you can source 2 20 amp GFCI circuits. The extra 1000w makes a big difference, and even put 10 gallon batches in reach.

 

[NathPowe]

I would advocate 2 x 2000w if you can source 2 20 amp GFCI circuits. The extra 1000w makes a big difference, and even put 10 gallon batches in reach.

+1 to this. I run 2 x 2000W and they work great for my 7.25gal pre-boil volume (5 gallon batches). I open them up full blast to get to a boil and then dial them back to about 85% to maintain. This gives me a good & consistent rolling boil.

I'd also highly recommend the 2000W stainless elements that BobbyM sells at brewhardware.com. Really nice product.

Cheers and enjoy the brew.

 

[wilserbrewer]

I run 2 x 2000W and they work great

Yes agreed, I also run 2 X 2000w for 7.75 gal 1/4 keg batches and just run 100%. Can't really understand all this "to do" about a controller and turning the power down. If you reasonably closely match the wattage to the boil size, no harm in letting em rip

Agreed, BobbyM / Brewhardware.com 2000w stainless elements look great...

 

[thefost]

I'm running 3 heat sticks, 1500W @ 120V. If your only doing 5 gallon batches, two 1500W elements will work. If you can swing 2000W elements even better. With that said, if I had the option to go 240V for 350 bucks, I would do it in a heartbeat!

 

[NathPowe]

Yes agreed, I also run 2 X 2000w for 7.75 gal 1/4 keg batches and just run 100%. Can't really understand all this "to do" about a controller and turning the power down. If you reasonably closely match the wattage to the boil size, no harm in letting em rip

Agreed, BobbyM / Brewhardware.com 2000w stainless elements look great...

Indeed, I can totally see a controller being unnecessary if you're reasonable about the wattage to boil volume ratio. I just thought my simple little controller would be a fun little project, and it was.

Cheers.

 

[Mirilis]

I have a very nice rolling boil with my 2x1650W elements at 100% (pre-boil volume roughly 7.5 gallons)

 

[Wynne-R]

120v circuits are designed to supply 80% continuous according to NEC. If the load is constant for three hours or more, you must derate the circuit. So a 20amp circuit becomes 16amps. 2000w is a bit over 16 amps, so if you’re doing this, be careful.

 

[wilserbrewer]

120v circuits are designed to supply 80% continuous according to NEC. If the load is constant for three hours or more.

3 hours, or 180 minutes is a long boil.

 

[sandyeggoxj]

3 hours, or 180 minutes is a long boil.

I am running a 240vac system but I only boil at 68% duty cycle, so it isn't a constant load. It is a constant pulsing load though. Even heating 35 gallons of strike water with a 5500w element I don't run for 3 hours straight.

 

[suds_zville]

I've been making one 2000w element work for my 5.25 gallon batches for the past 2-3 years just fine. A typical single infusion (batch sparge) all-grain day is around 4:30 and likely looks something like this:
Time
(min) Task
0-5 Measure mash water, mineral, and ph treatments, begin heating
5:-20 Measure out grains & grind
30-35 Mash in
35-40 Measure / ph adjust batch sparge water, begin heating
1:05-1:10 Transfer sparge water from kettle to spare cooler/bucket
1:10-1:15 vorlauf
1:15-1:25 Mash runoff into kettle, begin heating when element submersed
1:25-1:45 Add batch sparge water, stir, settle, vorlauf
1:45-1:55 Batch sparge runoff
2:20 Boil begins
2:20-3:35 75 min boil
3:35-3:45 whirlpool
3:45-4:00 plate chill
4:00-4:05 pitch yeast
4:05-4:30 cleanup

 

[IrregularPulse]

2 20A circuits is plenty to go all electric. A 2KW element on each circuit puts yuor at 16.7 Amps per Circuit. Right at the 80% rating of the breaker. That gives you 4KW in your pot. Plenty.
Controllers are not needed for boiling. They are very handy, however, for strike temps. 1 large benefit to me with going electric is being able to set a strike temp and not worry abut over shooting it. The controller gets it there and maintains it. That way if I get distracted or have to do something else, it doesn't go way over causing me to wait or add ice.

 

[McKnuckle]

I see very little on this forum about true small batch electric brewing, volumes in the 2-3 gallon range ending kettle. Boiling with around 3-4 gallons tops.

I'm putting together a Hot Rod with a 1500W element running on a 15A circuit. In the space I want to brew, it's the only electric source available. I have lots of propane and natural gas stovetop options, but I want a small batch basement solution that keeps all activities completely isolated from A) The weather; and B) SWMBO.

Can anyone speak to the predicted effectiveness of this minimalist setup without referring to 5 gallon batches (please)...?

 

[bfinleyui]

I see very little on this forum about true small batch electric brewing, volumes in the 2-3 gallon range ending kettle. Boiling with around 3-4 gallons tops.

I'm putting together a Hot Rod with a 1500W element running on a 15A circuit. In the space I want to brew, it's the only electric source available. I have lots of propane and natural gas stovetop options, but I want a small batch basement solution that keeps all activities completely isolated from A) The weather; and B) SWMBO.

Can anyone speak to the predicted effectiveness of this minimalist setup without referring to 5 gallon batches (please)...?

Obviously, being the OP, I don't have any specific experience, but according to a spreadsheet I found somewhere (not sure where, I can send it to you if you want), to get 4 gallons from 60 degrees to boiling, would take 62 minutes on 1500w. If you're mashing, it looks like it'd take 40 minutes to heat 4 gallons of mash water to 160 degrees, then 30 minutes to take the wort from 140 to 211 after the mash.

 

[McKnuckle]

Thank you - actually I found that spreadsheet on another thread.

The numbers are a little better with 100% efficiency rather than 95% (the former was suggested for immersed elements). My latest real world example of water volumes would have played out thusly: With 3.75 gallons of 74F water (ambient temp), it's 31 minutes to hit a strike temp of 160. Then after mashing, 19 minutes to bring the remaining 3.4 gallons to a boil from ~154F. That's not bad at all, and I hope it actually follows the prediction!

 

[Mirilis]

2 20A circuits is plenty to go all electric. A 2KW element on each circuit puts yuor at 16.7 Amps per Circuit. Right at the 80% rating of the breaker. That gives you 4KW in your pot. Plenty.
Controllers are not needed for boiling. They are very handy, however, for strike temps. 1 large benefit to me with going electric is being able to set a strike temp and not worry abut over shooting it. The controller gets it there and maintains it. That way if I get distracted or have to do something else, it doesn't go way over causing me to wait or add ice.

IP I havent seen you on here for years! .. then again i guess i dont look much.

I have my controller set up to only control the one element .. my other element is plugged directly in. I have my PID alarm set for say 160 (my strike temp), and my PID set point is set for 151 (my mast temp).

I walk away.. when my temp gets to set-point then the 1 element (on the controller shuts down) The other however still goes 100% so the temp still climbs. just a bit slower.

Once it hits 160 then my alarm goes off. I unplug the second element, then shut off my alarm and dough in.. then im dead nuts on my mash temp and the controller with 1 element will maintain it.

When Im ready for boil I set the control element to 100% manual, and then plug the second element back in.. and dont unplug till end of boil

 

[thekraken]

Mirilis: So you require both elements at 100% to maintain the boil? What was your experience backing off the power and just trying to maintain boil?

You mentioned 1650W elements, can you link to the specific ones you use?

 

[Mirilis]

Here is the elements I use I soaked them in Starsan for a few hours and then cleaned them down to the copper.

I guess I could back down the boil some but both of them at 100% left me with the boil I want (not so vigorous its crazy but not just barely bubbling either)