The OFFICIAL 11-11-11 Old Ale Thread - The HBT Anniversary Series

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Mini Update: I cracked open a bottle of my unsoured 11-11-11 today (same recipe, though fermented with wy1469) to see how it was coming along. It has been in the bottle for just over 3 months and is pretty tasty, albeit young. Lots of dark caramel and biscuit flavors (maybe a hint of spiced tobacco) and a monstrously fruity nose of dried apples, cherries, and prunes. Might be a bit too fruity for the style; I still don't know how I feel about 1469, it seems to throw a lot of fruit esters and never flocculates that well. It needs more time to clear up (!) and and mellow out the esters. Some light alcohol presence and it finishes a tad sweet. Definitely a sipper. The base recipe seems pretty solid, we should have some tasty beer come November.

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Well I just couldn't help myself today. I've been very curious about how much the brett has been eating since I last checked the beer in January. Hopefully my curiosity deters you all from stealing beer from your future self. I'm happy to report that the brett has appeared to have stopped working and it has stabilized at 1.015, which is the same reading I got over 4 months ago. It's right within style guidelines!

So far there is no significant change in the beer, the aging doesn't appear to have altered it much, yet. I expect oxidation to play a bit of a role later in the year. The oak is there but needs to be searched for, which is what I wanted. I used a couple ounces in the primary only. The brett is more in the foreground now but melds better with the over all beer, whereas before the layers were more separate, if that makes sense. The aroma reminds me a lot of spiced rum. There is some cherry in the aroma as well. It's a really interesting contemplative beer so far. Huge malt flavor and firm bitterness balances nicely with the high alcohols.

Is anyone else going to force carb this beer? I'm thinking I'll keg this at the end of the summer and bottle the majority of it from the keg for long term storage and swaps.
 
I'm thinking about doing that. I would just need to rig my fridge to run a gas line into it to force carb the keg. I like bottling my beer but a beer like this I'd rather not have bottle carb gunk at the bottom.
 
Is anyone planning on bottle conditioning their batch? While I WANT to bottle off a force carbed keg I am thinking that instead of buying a keg and getting my empty tank hydro'd and filled I'll just bottle condition with with some WLP001 or the like.
 
Big Brett aroma when I opened the carboy the other day. 1.082 -> 1.015. Hydrometer sample had very restrained Brett funk nose, mostly pie cherry (I know this is Brett)/leather/tobacco. Brilliantly clear orange-red hue. Flavor is biscuity with notes of treacle, leather, tobacco, Brett and a hint of oak (oak went in the primary, and no wood aging).

After carbing to 2.2 volumes (force carb), aroma is big cherry pie and leather nose. Opaque orange-red with persistent tan head. Sweet maltiness in the front with leather and treacle and cherries. Big body and moderate alcohol presence. Finishes sweet despite 1015 finishing gravity. Tasty. Good recipe formulation! It's going in a single-style ProAm this weekend.. wish me luck!
 
Good luck! Definitely report back once you get the comments. I did the primary oaking only and will do a force carb as well so I'm sure ours will be pretty similar. I'd like to know how it does since I'll save some for at least one competition in the fall.
 
I think I might bottle this up soon. I will pull a bottle worth off the carboy with a touch of sugar (2grams) and some champagne yeast to ensure carbonation. I will see how that turns out in 3-4 weeks and decide on whether I want to bottle condition the rest.

While I was doing the single bottle (real easy with a ported better bottle) I took a taste from the rest of the bottling want. It's good I like it A LOT more than Green King Old Suffolk. It smells a bit like cinnamon and tastes of tobacco and cherries. The hop bitterness has really subsided my theoretical were at like 60 using nugget hops. I used 1.5oz of Hungarian med toast cubes for all of secondary which I think has given the cinnamon scent and vanilla flavor I picked up. The oak is not apparent and should be 100% extracted at this point. I'll wait until June 1st to throw the bottle in the fridge. That will give me three full weeks with champagne yeast and the 2 grams of sugar. I was aiming for 2 volumes but my scale does not go past the first whole number. So I went to 1 gram and just added sugar to my tiny dish till it just hit 2 grams. If it's a little over that's fine I can fix it on the actual bottling amount. I might bottle all of this if I do bottle conditioning straight from my better bottle. Everything is nicely settled, and that way I won't have to get a second bottling bucket right now just for brett beers.
 
jmo88 said:
Is anyone else going to force carb this beer? I'm thinking I'll keg this at the end of the summer and bottle the majority of it from the keg for long term storage and swaps.
Click to expand...

I'll be force-carbing for sure. Same idea as you, I'll probably keep the majority of this for long term cellaring and trades. Also competition if it comes out within style guidelines.
 
On second thought using champagne yeast for carbonation while good for carbonation might not be good for continuing brett character. I don't know if Pasteur Red Star Champagne is a killer yeast but I'd rather not risk. I'll just get more brett to toss into the bottling bucket. That way I'll have a good cell count and it won't take forever to carb.
 
Mine has been sitting in the secondary on 3oz of oak cubes for 4 months now. For the last few months all I could see was tiny white spots in between the oak cubes. Now with the warmer weather the brett has started picking up. I now have large bubbles on the top and the airlock has started to slowly bubble again. My plan is to let it sit a couple more months then keg and carb, and bottle 20 or so off the keg for trading and such.
 
I'll be bottle conditioning all of mine. The pellicle has now fallen in the warmer weather so I think I'll be bottling soon. I've got to check the gravity again but last time I checked, the brett hadn't really moved the gravity much at all. If it is still pretty much the same, I won't worry too much about bottle bombs and prime to about 1.8 volumes. That way if the brett does eat some more of the complex sugars in the bottle, it shouldn't overcarb, but if it doesn't, it should have decent carbonation. I'll be adding about a quarter of a pack or so of s-04 to the bottling bucket to make sure carbonation happens relatively quickly, as well as helping to form a nice tight yeast cake. Mine has been sitting on 1 oz of house toast french oak cubes for the entire secondary.
 
Just checked the gravity on mine and it is down to 1.011! That puts my ABV at 8.5% so far. The pellicle, which wasn't very extensive in the secondary, has come back. It was there in the primary. The brett seems to be taking the gravity on this down pretty far for me.

The hydrometer sample tasted considerably more leather-like than the last time I took a sample. I've never had a brett beer before. It tastes pretty strange and unique, but not bad. I'm waffling between kegging and bottle conditioning this one whenever the gravity is stable. Right now I'm leaning towards bottle conditioning.
 
I plan on bottle conditioning all of mine as well. Is reyeasting necessary or advised after a long secondary? I plan to let it sit in the secondary for some 6-8 months before bottling, if that matters.
 
For anything high gravity (>10%) and anything that has been sitting for several months, I usually re-yeast...its way too easy to do considering the alternative of having flat beer.
 
GuldTuborg said:
I'm with you on that one, I just didn't know if the brett presence changed matters at all.
Click to expand...

The brett will more than likely still be active, but the carbonation can be somewhat unreliable if there isn't any healthy sacc to help the brett. Brett doesn't produce as much co2 as sacc, and as you're aware of, it also works more slowly. Also, brett doesn't flocculate very well, so re-yeasting with something like s-04 is a good choice.
 
Thanks. I suspected that to be true, but I just don't have a whole lot of experience using brett. I think this is only my third go round with it. It's good to have some confirmation.
 
jmo88 said:
Good luck! Definitely report back once you get the comments. I did the primary oaking only and will do a force carb as well so I'm sure ours will be pretty similar. I'd like to know how it does since I'll save some for at least one competition in the fall.
Click to expand...

Eh. It went in a comp with 107 other Old Ales, so comparatively, Im going to guess most of them were malt bombs. Mine was 1082->1015. I did not disclose Brett or oak. I think the Brett threw me under the bus on this one...

I got dinged for:
- sour
- phenolic
- band-aid
- spicy/solventy
- high hop bitterness versus maltiness
- dry finish
- sherry
- vinous
- "doesnt identify with the smoothness of an old ale"

None of the judges (1 national BJCP and 2 non-BJCP) recognized the Brett, but 2/3 thought my ferm temps were high (but they werent @ 66°F). Im going to guess the oak + dry finish + maltiness stripped by Brett + hop bitterness = astringency. While I can see that, it is not a bad beer, just not what they were looking for. I'll likely put this in Specialty next time as the Brett has worked its magic; Brett dropped it from 1022 to 1015 and is noticeable. Maybe it just needs to get older to let the hops die down. :mug: It goes down too easy right now...
 
Honestly, it sounds like you just need to give it more time. The best thing about a beer like this is that it will age gracefully for years.
 
I bottled tonight after oaking since December. Wow does this taste great. The Brett is nice and tart, but really in the background as part of a complex barleywine. I love 9097-PC. Great yeast that makes wonderful beer.
 
Well this thing is in bottles. Half in plain 24-12oz crowns and 22-brown grolsch bottles. My gravity actually finished at 1.016 so just shy of 9% for me with a starting gravity of 1.087. I primed with 166grams of Briess Pilsen Light DME and a packet of SO4 to ensure carbonation at 2 volumes for a beer at 75 degrees. I have a feeling that there is very little if any residual CO2 left in this beer after 5 months in secondary. I will let it carb up then I will throw them in my parents cellar for the remainder of the time till the swap. That way I'm not tempted.

I have some thoughts about the bottle conditioning of this beer. First, since I used DME I decided to go on the low end for one I do not expect much if any residual C02 in the bottle. Two, although I bottled with additional S04 there is brett in the bottle. While normal yeast might only ferment the Briess DME 75% according to the Briess PDF on the DME, the brett will likely 100% ferment it after due time. So my thought is, and it's mostly a guess/hunch, that with very little residual CO2 and .003 gravity points added from the DME I will end up with 1.5 and 2.5 volumes of CO2 with this brew. I would prefer the low end but if the brett hasn't actually finished then there could be an issue. With that said my gravity was the same last week compared to a reading three months so I'm not worried but there is till a tinge of apprehension.
 
Would it be too late to oak this thing? I never really got around to doing it. I have two batches and was thinking of adding some med toast french oak to one and leaving the other without. Though how long does it need to sit on the oak to give enough character to the beer? I really don't have much experience oaking a beer this big.
 
You can use oak chips for quick infusion of oak character. Take samples until the oak is where you want it.
 
I just kegged mine after six months of it in the secondary with 3 oz oak cubes the whole time. It finished at 1.018, so the brett took it from 1.03 down quite a bit. It tasted wonderful! The oak is there as is all the malty flavors and brett. It is very complex.
 
bierhaus15 said:
Would it be too late to oak this thing? I never really got around to doing it. I have two batches and was thinking of adding some med toast french oak to one and leaving the other without. Though how long does it need to sit on the oak to give enough character to the beer? I really don't have much experience oaking a beer this big.
Click to expand...

I think you have plenty of time to oak it. A couple months on oak chips will for sure do the trick.
 
At 1.011 for me. Brett aroma of horse/leather/tobacco with a haunting whiff of tart cherry. Taste is very complex, malty sweetness, a sour fruit tartness, smooth medium bitterness, dry finish with alcohol warmth. The tartness jumped out at the first sip, but then it faded to the background as you keep sipping. All melded well with a background of the Medium Toast French Oak (16.7 g in 3 gal). This Old Ale is awesome, the Brett really sets it off. I think I will save the oak cubes to inoculate future batches.
 
To add: The saccharomyces appeared to attenuate down to 1.023, which was steady for nearly a month, from which point the brettanomyces slowly brought the SG down to 1.011 over the course of 4 months.

It's been 6 months altogether and the pellicle is still really thick and doesn't appear to be going anywhere.

I plan to bottle at 9 months. Should I wait for the pellicle to drop or just go ahead according to schedule if the SG is no longer decreasing?
 
I would be a bit leery of aging a spiced beer so long. I haven't had many spiced examples that taste better at 10+ months than at 5.

This probably wouldn't be too popular, but I'd love to do a Dopple or Eisbock.
 
bierhaus15 said:
I would be a bit leery of aging a spiced beer so long. I haven't had many spiced examples that taste better at 10+ months than at 5.

This probably wouldn't be too popular, but I'd love to do a Dopple or Eisbock.
Click to expand...

Then just oak.

I'd be down for a dopple as well
 

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