Tell me About Brett

[Clint Yeastwood]

Last night, I had a Brother Thelonious, which is a heavy ale. I assume it has brett in it, because it has the same funky smell and taste you get from certain strong Belgian beers. I wonder if anyone here could confirm this. I've had all sorts of beers, and I have had beers I assumed were fermented with brett, but I have never really gone out of my way to explore the world of brettanomyces and determine exactly what it was like. It didn't occur to me to try. I just figure any really strong ale that has that flavor is made with brett.

I also tried a beer called St. Bernardus Christmas Ale. It has the same taste and arome. Sort of like smelling someone else's bad breath.

I never thought I would have any interest in brett, but it is said to be an acquired taste, so there must be something to it. There are a lot of things we have to teach ourselves to like. Some cheeses are terrifying the first time you try or even smell them.

What are the best ways to counterbalance brett in a beer? Seems like a lot of sweetness and acidity would be helpful.

I don't know if it's smart to brew with this stuff, given that it can be hard to get out of equipment.

 

[DBhomebrew]

1 - Brett is as specific as saying 'sacc'. There are many strains each with their own characteristics. Brett L may be more funky, "barnyard-y". Brett C (traditionally British) may be more leathery, mild.

2 - A brewer can coax different characteristics by controlling temp, co-pitching in primary vs pitching after sacc's primary, sacc choice, levels of certain compounds in the base beer, etc.

3 - Brett'd equipment can be cleaned and sanitized in just the same way as sacc. You need not fear as long as you have a solid cleaning and sanitation procedure.

Give this overview a read. If it sounds interesting, Dig into the blog's individual recipes, etc.

https://www.themadfermentationist.com/2008/06/all-about-brettanomyces.html?m=1

 

[Clint Yeastwood]

So are the beers I mentioned brett beers?

 

[DBhomebrew]

I don't believe so. Neither are advertised by the breweries as such. You'd think they would advertise it as brett is a trendy upsale these days.

Get yourself a bottle of Orval, a brett'd Belgian pale. It's probably one of the more widely available brett'd beers. You can use the dregs to inculcate your own. It doesn't take much of a cell count. Time is the main ingredient.

 

[Clint Yeastwood]

They have a definite stink which doesn't seem to be from hops or malt. It makes me think of tetanus.

I loved Orval when I was in college, but it has been so long, I can't remember what it tasted like. I was in charge of ordering all the beer for a university's student grocery, so I got whatever I wanted. Frats were serving kegs of Rheingold at their parties, but my roommates and I had Spaten, Watney's, and so on.

I saw an Orval at the local earth-crunchy grocery. Maybe they still have it.

 

[DBhomebrew]

I think you're sensing the spicy, fruity, bubblegum-y, sometimes slightly sour or funky character of a typical Belgian sacc.

Also, doing forget your intermittently reduced taste and smell. Not only can those senses be attenuated, they can also be skewed.

 

[Clint Yeastwood]

Good point about the coronavirus, but I tried these before it hit.

I don't mean to sound negative when I say it makes me think of tetanus. A friend of mine trained racehorses, and he gave himself tetanus while working in a stall.

Here is what St. Bernardus says about its yeast: "Just like all of our beers, this brew bears the imprint of the unique St.Bernardus yeast (dating back to 1946), that gives it its own special complexity."

I'm going to see if I can email them and ask if brett is in there.

 

[Clint Yeastwood]

Man, coronavirus is unbelievable. No one would believe what's happening to me if they didn't go through the same thing.

My nose seems to be fine, but my taste buds literally flicker in and out. A couple of days ago, beer tasted like beer. I was thrilled. Day later, club soda plus dishwater.

Today I decided to go get 12 Sierra Nevada Torpedos to use as covid tests. I am extremely familiar with Torpedo, so if it tastes wrong, I know it. I figure I would rather waste factory beer than homebrew. If I open a Torpedo and I have to pour it out, I don't really care. If a Torpedo tastes okay, I should be okay to grab a homebrew. That was the theory.

Earlier today, I tried the lager I just made, and it was off. Too sweet, and the hops tasted metallic. I didn't pour any more of it. I just had a little.

I just opened a Torpedo maybe 20 minutes ago. It was not good. Too sweet and metallic hops.

After it had been open 10 minutes or so, I drank some more. It was fine.

That's how fast it changes.

I'm afraid to pour a stout because my taste buds may be crazy half an hour from now.

 

[Rish]

I really like Brother Thelonius! In looking at various clone recipes the various yeasts used are of course all Belgium abbey or trappist style but don't indicate being brett. Good luck with your recovery from covid!

 

[Clint Yeastwood]

Thanks. I feel fine, and I tested negative yesterday. Just having problems tasting beer.

I found an Orval tonight. Planning to try it later.

 

[Kickass]

Belgian yeast, not brett is what you’re likely getting.

 

[chthon]

Good point about the coronavirus, but I tried these before it hit.

I don't mean to sound negative when I say it makes me think of tetanus. A friend of mine trained racehorses, and he gave himself tetanus while working in a stall.

Here is what St. Bernardus says about its yeast: "Just like all of our beers, this brew bears the imprint of the unique St.Bernardus yeast (dating back to 1946), that gives it its own special complexity."

I'm going to see if I can email them and ask if brett is in there.

I brewed different beers with St.-Bernardus yeast, these are my results:

Recept​	Datum​	OG​	FG​	IBU​	Gist​	AA​
Starter beer​	2019-02-01​	1,048​	1,010​	28,0​	St.-Bernardus​	79%​
St.-Bernardus Tripel​	2019-05-23​	1,077​	1,016​	42,0​	St.-Bernardus​	79%​
St.-Bernardus Abt 12​	2019-07-05​	1,089​	1,018​	26,0​	St.-Bernardus​	80%​
Test St.-Bernardus 1​	2020-05-14​	1,040​	1,016​	​	St.-Bernardus​	60%​
Test St.-Bernardus 2​	2020-06-01​	1,040​	1,016​	​	St.-Bernardus​	60%​
Test St.-Bernardus 3​	2020-07-14​	1,040​	1,006​	​	St.-Bernardus​	85%​
St.-Bernardus Tripel​	2020-11-01​	1,069​	1,004​	42,0​	St.-Bernardus​	94%​

The tripel included 21 % invertsugar. It's a healthy yeast, but certainly no Brett.

A good tripel reminds me of fermentation by-products, yes, sometimes something a bit like cheese.

 

[hottpeper13]

Well I can tell you about Brett, he's my cousin in St. Louis, he don't smell like a barnyard thou.

 

[Albionwood]

Brother T has no Brett. NCBC is fanatical about cleanliness and has never made any Brett or mixed-ferm beers. (The former head brewer - recently retired - is a pal.) Brother Thelonius is made with a Belgian Abbey-style yeast to get those phenolics etc. From your description though, I am guessing you got a bottle that had been badly treated, probably overheated and maybe lightstruck. If you are in FL, you are a loooong way from the Mendocino coast where that beer is made, and it is unlikely it has been kept cool and dark the entire time since it was bottled.

 

[Clint Yeastwood]

I thought it was totally normal!

 

[Clint Yeastwood]

I'm glad I asked this, because all sorts of sources say brett tastes like horse sweat or barnyard dirt or whatever, without mentioning other possible flavors, and a person like me who picks up rank smells and flavors and aromas in Belgian and Belgian-style beers will just assume he's tasting brett.

I didn't know there were saccharomyces yeasts that also stank a little.

I think most brewers would go their whole lives without getting down to the bottom of this, so maybe this thread will help others who were afraid to ask stupid questions.

I'll get through that Orval today.

 

[Dog House Brew]

Orval to me tastes like drinking good beer from a workout work boot with a hint of horse’s arse. That was the beer that taught me that I do not like Brett. I’ve tried multiple Brett beers that have the same result. Everyone likes something different.

 

[Clint Yeastwood]

Work boot and horse's arse? Now I'm really psyched!

 

[Clint Yeastwood]

I really want to try this stuff, but I have to try another beer first to make sure residual covid isn't messing with my taste buds. I am trying a lager I kegged the other day. It tastes great, but not really normal. Strange.

I have come to believe it's a mistake to drink from beer glasses washed in dishwashers. It seems like no matter how clean the dishwasher gets a glass, there is always some scent left on it.

I'll crack the Orval open and take my chances.

 

[Pennine]

I think it's the COVID issue and maybe parosmia, StB Xmas ale does not smell like bad breath or barnyard horse piss...

 

[Clint Yeastwood]

The Orval is surprising. It has exactly the same smell I thought was brett in St. Bernardus and Brother Thelonious, but I can't taste it when I drink the beer. It's very light in the Orval.

The head is prodigious and persistent but coarse. Big bubbles.

The beer is surprisingly bland, and I don't mean that in a negative way. I mean I thought I would be knocked over by all sorts of wild Belgian flavors, but it tastes citrusy and a little sweet. It's not bland compared to most beers. Just Belgian stuff.

I find it sadly lacking in both workboot and horse's arse, but there is a flat, sort of metallic flavor in there that doesn't seem to be hops.

It's very easy to drink, like the beers I make. I'm going to check the ABV to find out if I'm being played for a fool.

It appears I am. On the web, I'm seeing 6.2% and 6.9%. One source says it can go as high as 7.2%. What the hell does that mean? Is it fermenting in the bottle or what? Are the monks who brew it too hammered to be consistent? Do they just mash whatever they find lying on the brewery floor, ferment it, and dump it in bottles without measuring anything?

If you told me this was a 100% mainstreamy saccharomyces beer, I would have no reason to question it. There is that weird Belgian smell around the edges, but other than that, it's like drinking a sessiony and lightly-hopped IPA. Which makes no sense if it's anywhere near 7%. I guess this is a beer that pretends to be a session beer and then makes the room spin.

As regards the smell and taste I thought was brett, I would say it's somewhat like St. Bernardus and Brother Thelonious, but way more gentle. When I drank St. Bernardus, a little voice in my head said, "Something is wrong. You're giving yourself food poisoning."

Regarding the way the tastes of things keep changing, I feel like I'm taking a new kind of psilocybin that only affects the taste buds. Who knows if anything I'm tasting or smelling is valid?

Fantastic beer, or so it seems to me in my current post-viral condition. Not one I plan to keep drinking, at $6 per bottle. If I were making something like it, I would jack up the OG and increase the hops a tiny bit. I could drink this stuff all day. Except that I might possibly die after the 4th bottle.

 

[Clint Yeastwood]

Now that the beer is warmer, I can taste the faux brett thing a little.

 

[Dog House Brew]

The Brett beer that I tried that was better than the others…Boulevard Smokestack Series Tank 7 w Brett. I think that was the one.

 

[Clint Yeastwood]

Here's the thing. If this beer, St. Bernardus, and Brother Thelonious all have a taste and smell I don't get from saccharomyces beers, but I don't taste anything else unusual, where is the brett in the Orval? I can't taste anything else in there I would be surprised to find in a saccharomyces beer. This ale is a little fruity, but that's pretty much it.

If brett is so subtle and hard to detect, how can it be considered a threat when it infects a beer?

 

[DBhomebrew]

If brett is so subtle and hard to detect, how can it be considered a threat when it infects a beer?

It  can be so subtle. Or in your face. Lots of dials to turn. My first Brett beer is the Gunstock Ale English style old ale here in the forum. Started off pretty sweet when the sac was done. After 8mo of Brett C it's dry with a leathery character. Still very subtle, but clearly a different beer.

The brett character continued to develop and change with long term storage.

 

[Pennine]

Orval is very subtle especially if drinking a young bottle of it. They add it at packaging so it takes some time to develop.

I agree about dishwasher tablets, I only buy unscented versions from trader Joe's or 7th generation they also seem to rinse off better. Scented dishwasher cleaner always leaves a nasty residue and smell for me too. The other option is handwash beer glasses.

 

[Dog House Brew]

The other option is handwash beer glasses.

I hand wash all of my beer glasses. Dishwasher is hard on the painted logo.

 

[Clint Yeastwood]

What I smell on the glasses is like food residue.

I use citric acid in my dishwasher, so everything comes out sparkling, but my guess is that today's greenie machines don't use enough precious rinse water.

 

[Clint Yeastwood]

The people at St. Bernardus were nice enough to answer an email. None of their beers contain brett.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

The people at St. Bernardus were nice enough to answer an email. None of their beers contain brett.

I would expect that. I don't even think their Christmas Ale contains any added spices.

Most Belgian yeast is Phenolic (POF+...Phenolic Off Flavor Positive). That is responsible for the typical clove and pepper notes. There are a lot of other phenolic flavors (like smoke, plastic/band-aid, etc.) and often phenolics in small amounts can have a subtle character. That is likely one aspect you are tasting.

Also, most Belgian yeast (especially the Trappist styles) is fairly estery. This adds some of the fruity, cherry, dark fruit, banana, bubblegum (banana + berry), type flavors. Many of these beers are fermented in the 80F range, which can increase the ester production. Throw in some dark sugars or dark crystal malts, and you get more complex flavors.

I am a massive fan of St. Bernardus Abt 12. It would win my vote for "Best Beer in the World." I almost feel guilty paying only $12 for a 750ml bottle. It is likely a very simple recipe that is mostly Pilsner malt and dark sugar (maybe they use something like Special B), and some basic German hops. It is their yeast and process that makes the beer special. The yeast is likely very close to the Westmalle strain (WLP530, WY3787, Imperial Triple Double, and others).

 

[Clint Yeastwood]

I've used yeast that was supposedly from Trappist strains, and I never got the rank smells or flavors that are in beers like Christmas Ale. I wonder what causes those things. It can't be any of the ingredients I've used.

As for Orval, it has very little of that stuff. It makes me wonder why brett hasn't always been as mainstream as saccharomyces.

For years, I was told brett tasted and smelled like rotten things from barnyards, and I can understand why that would drive people away, but if it's not true, why isn't it more commonly used? Judging from the difficulty of getting it out of equipment, it must be very hardy and unlikely to stall, and because it's dry, it must get a lot of attenuation. But I don't know how much of what I've been told is true.

 

[chthon]

I would expect that. I don't even think their Christmas Ale contains any added spices.

Most Belgian yeast is Phenolic (POF+...Phenolic Off Flavor Positive). That is responsible for the typical clove and pepper notes. There are a lot of other phenolic flavors (like smoke, plastic/band-aid, etc.) and often phenolics in small amounts can have a subtle character. That is likely one aspect you are tasting.

Also, most Belgian yeast (especially the Trappist styles) is fairly estery. This adds some of the fruity, cherry, dark fruit, banana, bubblegum (banana + berry), type flavors. Many of these beers are fermented in the 80F range, which can increase the ester production. Throw in some dark sugars or dark crystal malts, and you get more complex flavors.

I am a massive fan of St. Bernardus Abt 12. It would win my vote for "Best Beer in the World." I almost feel guilty paying only $12 for a 750ml bottle. It is likely a very simple recipe that is mostly Pilsner malt and dark sugar (maybe they use something like Special B), and some basic German hops. It is their yeast and process that makes the beer special. The yeast is likely very close to the Westmalle strain (WLP530, WY3787, Imperial Triple Double, and others).

6,75 EUR for a bottle locally, 1,81 EUR for 330 ml

 

[chthon]

I've used yeast that was supposedly from Trappist strains, and I never got the rank smells or flavors that are in beers like Christmas Ale. I wonder what causes those things. It can't be any of the ingredients I've used.

As for Orval, it has very little of that stuff. It makes me wonder why brett hasn't always been as mainstream as saccharomyces.

For years, I was told brett tasted and smelled like rotten things from barnyards, and I can understand why that would drive people away, but if it's not true, why isn't it more commonly used? Judging from the difficulty of getting it out of equipment, it must be very hardy and unlikely to stall, and because it's dry, it must get a lot of attenuation. But I don't know how much of what I've been told is true.

Are you aware that until the advent of modern biology and modern (well, end 19th century at Carlsberg) most beers contained brett? It is even named at the place of discovery, "Brettanomyces", British yeast. Most beers were either consumed fairly fast, or got an extended aging in huge or lined vats (not like spontaneous fermentation) where the brett did its work, getting the final gravity under 1.010, or lower. Porter, Stout, Old Ale, Pale Ale, bière de garde, all were conditioned by brett.

If brett has no contact with oxygen, then no funky tastes or acidity appear. (That's where the huge vats come from. If it is not lined there is oxygen ingress, but the huger the vat, the lesser the effect, as the area vs. the volume shrinks).

 

[DBhomebrew]

It is even named at the place of discovery, "Brettanomyces", British yeast.

More accurately, the British beer was taken to Carlsberg, Denmark and analyzed there. They weren't the first to find it, but one of their people, N. Claussen, wrote it up, etc.

Brettanomyces (British fungus) claussenii was the typical British strain. Other bretts were found elsewhere. Claussenii is very mild as bretts go.

 

[Clint Yeastwood]

I found an interesting article which says the problem with brett is that it doesn't do much for body. The article also says it grows slowly, so I suppose that alone would push factory brewers away from it.

It claims Orval doesn't add brett until bottling. If that is true, and I want the real Orval brett experience, maybe I should buy a bottle and leave it on the counter for a while so it ferments out.

https://byo.com/article/all-about-brett/

 

[VikeMan]

It appears I am. On the web, I'm seeing 6.2% and 6.9%. One source says it can go as high as 7.2%. What the hell does that mean? Is it fermenting in the bottle or what? Are the monks who brew it too hammered to be consistent? Do they just mash whatever they find lying on the brewery floor, ferment it, and dump it in bottles without measuring anything?

The brewers know exactly what they are doing. (BTW, they are not monks.) Orval is nominally 6.9% ABV. It says so right on the label. With age it undoubtedly does go a little higher, because yes, it is fermenting in the bottle, even after the sugar added for carbonation is used up. Brett slowly works on carbs that the primary clean strain couldn't. But more importantly, Brett transforms compounds created by clean yeasts into other compounds, thus changing the mix of aromas/flavors.

For years, I was told brett tasted and smelled like rotten things from barnyards, and I can understand why that would drive people away, but if it's not true, why isn't it more commonly used?

Most of the unique characterstics imparted by the various Brett strains would be a disaster, by modern standards, in most clean styles.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

I found an interesting article which says the problem with brett is that it doesn't do much for body. The article also says it grows slowly, so I suppose that alone would push factory brewers away from it.

It claims Orval doesn't add brett until bottling. If that is true, and I want the real Orval brett experience, maybe I should buy a bottle and leave it on the counter for a while so it ferments out.

https://byo.com/article/all-about-brett/

Does your bottle have any dates? I would guess it is several months old before it gets on a shelf in the US. I have read that Orval fresh at the brewery is a very different beer than it is at 1 year or 2 years.

I have my first beer with Brett going now. I added to to the secondary after primary fermentation with a Saison yeast. I expect it will work away for 6 months or so before it is ready to bottle. I has been 3 months and I still see bubbles and airlock activity. I believe that co-pitching Brett at the start of fermentation can turn over a beer in a month or so. 100% Brett fermentation is a thing I have heard about as well.

 

[Clint Yeastwood]

I would think that if brett gives Orval funny smells after it finishes, and the bottle I got was tame, it had to be a young bottle. I don't know if it had a date.

 

[VikeMan]

I would think that if brett gives Orval funny smells after it finishes, and the bottle I got was tame, it had to be a young bottle. I don't know if it had a date.

Fresh Orval ("fresh" meaning about 2 months from brew day...you can't get it younger than that) definitely has a "funny" smell, if by that you mean distinctive Brett brux character. And it definitely does increase and evolve with time. IMO, about 6-9 months in the bottle is the sweet spot for Orval. But that's with my taste buds and my cellar aging temperature.