Stabilizing and bottle bomb questions

[Drinksahoy]

So I've been running this batch since mid February of kiwi strawberry apple juice. It fermented very fast and after a few weeks of dormancy I racked to secondary. Then after about a month I put it in the fridge for 2 days and I just now took it out and added potassium sorbate; back sweetened, and bottled.

I skipped the campden because it was clear as can be and there was only a minuscule amount of yeast cake. The majority got left behind in the primary.

How long do I need to wait before drinking since adding the sorbate?

Am I at risk for bottle bombs for skipping the campden?

 

[Maylar]

The campden would act as an antioxidant at bottling time, which gives a longer shelf life to the cider. It also assists the sorbate in doing its job. Without the sulfite (campden), sorbate can make geranium odors. But if you have no funny smells and don't expect to age the cider in bottles then you're good to go. Drink up.

 

[bernardsmith]

The sorbate prevents any residual yeast cells from budding (reproducing) so the generation in your cider will be the last one but the sorbate does not prevent those viable cells from fermenting sugar. I think you DO want to add K-meta (the Campden) because the K-meta can kill off the remains of the colony if the colony is now very small. That's why you add K-meta to a must prior to pitching the yeast (it's to kill off a few cells of wild yeast and any small colonies of bacteria) while waiting 24 hours for the sulfur dioxide to evaporate off before you pitch the full load of yeast.

In my opinion, you could forgo the K-sorbate but double up on the K-meta but adding K-sorbate without K-meta is like playing Russian Roulette. Unless your plan is to keep this cider near freezing I would not bet the farm that the yeast won't begin to chomp into the sugars you have added..

 

[Owly055]

I brew a lot of kombucha, and continuing fermentation is an issue. I do a "secondary" with a flavored syrup just for carbonation. My solution is to use the EZ-Cap brand bottles in the 1L size. These use as Grolsch type wire bail, but are extremely strong, rated at over 100 PSI. But in addition to using extremely tough bottles, I use a rubber band to hold tension on the wire bail, by looping it around the bail and through itself, then stretching the band under the bottom of the bottle. The bail itself is not latched, and the rubber band will allow the bottles to vent at about 30psi (est). The result is zero danger of grenades, and superb carbonation.

This is a simple method, and "cheap insurance". A bag of size 64 rubber bands is cheap. Aside from that, I use this type bottle for ALL my beer, etc that I bottle. I don't even own any crown cap bottles. These bottles are not cheap, but they last forever. The only problem I have is that folks don't want to give them back......... ;-( People who don't return bottles just don't get beer. $2 to find out who your REAL friends are is cheap!!

H.W.

 

[Drinksahoy]

The sorbate prevents any residual yeast cells from budding (reproducing) so the generation in your cider will be the last one but the sorbate does not prevent those viable cells from fermenting sugar. I think you DO want to add K-meta (the Campden) because the K-meta can kill off the remains of the colony if the colony is now very small. That's why you add K-meta to a must prior to pitching the yeast (it's to kill off a few cells of wild yeast and any small colonies of bacteria) while waiting 24 hours for the sulfur dioxide to evaporate off before you pitch the full load of yeast.

In my opinion, you could forgo the K-sorbate but double up on the K-meta but adding K-sorbate without K-meta is like playing Russian Roulette. Unless your plan is to keep this cider near freezing I would not bet the farm that the yeast won't begin to chomp into the sugars you have added..

LOL funny you mention that. I tried crashing another batch at 1.03 SG by adding campden only and then putting in the fridge. I woke up this morning to find it bubbling still and SG of 1.02! So you ain't lying. (I went ahead and added k-sorbate and stuck back in the fridge hoping to end this sucker around 1.015-1.02)

 

[bernardsmith]

I think you need to really douse the wine or cider with multiple times the normal dosage of K-meta if your colony is thriving. First cold crash, then rack the cider from the fallen yeast to remove the yeast from the cider and then drown the remaining yeast with K-meta (and K-sorbate)

 

[Drinksahoy]

I think you need to really douse the wine or cider with multiple times the normal dosage of K-meta if your colony is thriving. First cold crash, then rack the cider from the fallen yeast to remove the yeast from the cider and then drown the remaining yeast with K-meta (and K-sorbate)

I was under the impression that k-meta already produces off flavors, Would adding a lot more not make the flavors a lot worse?
I am currently on my 7th attempt at cider and ever single one before it has come out skunky smelling, and had to be pitched(even after over a month of waiting), and it is getting frustrating. I am trying to avoid off smells and flavors at all costs.
This is the first time I've degassed very frequently and so far no off smells yet. Hence why I want to crash it now because I figure the longer I wait the more chance I have of messing it up, yet again...

 

[Yooper]

LOL funny you mention that. I tried crashing another batch at 1.03 SG by adding campden only and then putting in the fridge. I woke up this morning to find it bubbling still and SG of 1.02! So you ain't lying. (I went ahead and added k-sorbate and stuck back in the fridge hoping to end this sucker around 1.015-1.02)

There is a reason this won't work.

Neither campden (sulfite) nor sorbate actually kill yeast. What sorbate does in inhibit yeast reproduction, and it works better in the presence of sulfites.

What that means is, in a perfectly clear cider or wine with no lees (sediment) on the bottom, there is little yeast in suspension. Once that happens, it's ok to use the sorbate and campden. To ensure there are no lees picked up, the cider is racked from that vessel into a new vessel into which the sorbate and campden have been dissolved. Then, after a few days (making sure no lees drop and no fermentation continues), the cider can be sweetened to taste. Wait three more days, to ensure no continued fermentation, then bottle.

With plenty of yeast in the cider or in the bottom, all that will happen is the yeast may get stressed and cause off flavors or fermentation won't stop and as soon as the cider is at room temperature, fermentation will restart.

 

[bernardsmith]

I was under the impression that k-meta already produces off flavors, Would adding a lot more not make the flavors a lot worse?
I am currently on my 7th attempt at cider and ever single one before it has come out skunky smelling, and had to be pitched(even after over a month of waiting), and it is getting frustrating. I am trying to avoid off smells and flavors at all costs.
This is the first time I've degassed very frequently and so far no off smells yet. Hence why I want to crash it now because I figure the longer I wait the more chance I have of messing it up, yet again...

Skunky? Literally? Are you adding hops and then exposing the cider to light? Or is the skunkiness the smell of hydrogen sulfiude - rotten eggs? Some yeasts are notorious for producing hydrogen sulfide at the drop of a hat, but typically, hydrogen sulfide is caused by stressed yeast. Stressed yeast has nothing to do with the sulfur dioxide (Campden tabs).
A too low temperature fermentation can prevent any off flavors from being blown off but a fermentation with hobbled yeast, with poor nutrients and with insufficient oxygen can create off flavors...

 

[Drinksahoy]

When I say slinky I mean repulsive. Makes my friends want to throw up. Not drinkable AT ALL!

Okay yeah I added the campden and Kmeta and cold crashed it all together and fermentation has stopped but now it smells like **** again.

Another batch I can't save!

I'm gonna just ferment it out and distill it like the rest.

I do have one batch going normal at room temperature that I have been degassing multiple times a day and it has yet to produce this horrid sulfur smell. I guess my only hope is for that stay the same but at this point I think I'm a doomed cider maker. (All my meads and wines come out just fine...)

 

[Drinksahoy]

Skunky? Literally? Are you adding hops and then exposing the cider to light? Or is the skunkiness the smell of hydrogen sulfiude - rotten eggs? Some yeasts are notorious for producing hydrogen sulfide at the drop of a hat, but typically, hydrogen sulfide is caused by stressed yeast. Stressed yeast has nothing to do with the sulfur dioxide (Campden tabs).
A too low temperature fermentation can prevent any off flavors from being blown off but a fermentation with hobbled yeast, with poor nutrients and with insufficient oxygen can create off flavors...

Additional: what kind of light are we talking? I primary them all in plastic food grade buckets and the smell always comes about in this stage. Again my other types of alcohol don't have this problem.

 

[bernardsmith]

If you are not hopping your cider then the smell is not likely to be skunky in any literal sense but if you are then chemicals produced by hops can react to certain wavelengths of light to produce a chemical known as 3 -MBT which is almost identical to the chemical produced in the scent glands of skunks. https://beersensoryscience.wordpress.com/2011/03/17/lightstruck/
If you stress the yeast by not providing the cider with sufficient nutrients or oxygen or nitrogen then you are likely to find that apart from producing phenols (a medicine-like taste) the yeast will produce hydrogen sulfide - (smells like rotten eggs). In this forum brewers often point to the inevitability of "rhino farts" in their cider. My background is in wine making and none of my teachers or peers view such smells as anything but a sign of poor protocol.

 

[Yooper]

When I say slinky I mean repulsive. Makes my friends want to throw up. Not drinkable AT ALL!

Okay yeah I added the campden and Kmeta and cold crashed it all together and fermentation has stopped but now it smells like **** again.

Another batch I can't save!

I'm gonna just ferment it out and distill it like the rest.

I do have one batch going normal at room temperature that I have been degassing multiple times a day and it has yet to produce this horrid sulfur smell. I guess my only hope is for that stay the same but at this point I think I'm a doomed cider maker. (All my meads and wines come out just fine...)

The reason for the repulsive smell is outlined in my (long) post above. The short answer is by adding the sorbate and campden as you are, you are stressing the yeast and causing foul flavor and aroma.

 

[Drinksahoy]

The reason for the repulsive smell is outlined in my (long) post above. The short answer is by adding the sorbate and campden as you are, you are stressing the yeast and causing foul flavor and aroma.

Is this what's causing a now straight up garlic smell? It is undeniably the smell of garlic now coming out of it. I just pitched it. Not even going to bother distilling.