A few beginner questions...

[PeterG]

Hi folks,

I'm new to the forum. I've been making wine for a number of years (though still have much to learn there) and am trying cider for the first time right now. I have never brewed beer, so carbonation and such are new to me. I definitely need (and intend) to buy some books and spend time reading the extensive posts here, but it's all a little overwhelming right now and I was hoping you wouldn't mind if I asked a few quick questions just to help me with next steps.

I just fermented 3 gallons of fresh juice I bought from a local orchard. I used a wine yeast (Lalvin K1-V1116) and it seems to have completed pretty quickly (~4 days). Maybe too quick? Anyway it's at 0.998 SG now and seems to be about done, but I'll check again for stability. I racked from fermenter into a carboy and below is what it looks like now.

I don't have carbonation/kegging equipment but would like to try bottle carbonation. I've read some posts about sweetening and pasteurizing and that sounds a little challenging for a first-timer, so I am thinking I will just bottle it dry.

My questions:

1. How do you handle clearing/fining? If this were wine I would let it sit for several months, rack a few times, and maybe filter. What do most people do with cider?
2. Aside from clearing it, is there any value in bulk aging? How about oak additions - is that a "thing" for cider or not?
3. Are swing-top bottles okay for bottling and carbonating?
4. I bought some "carbonation drops" -- do they work or is it better to calculate and add sugar to the batch? Apparently the drops are designed to be used 1 per 12 oz volume, but swing tops seem to come in 16 oz increments (I already have some of these at home) or metric sizes (e.g. 1 liter), so it's a little off.
5. If I'm not sweetening or pasteurizing, what should I do to preserve? I added about 50 ppm of SO2 before fermentation and I do have equipment for measuring SO2 levels. Do I just need an adequate level before bottling? I see mention of potassium sorbate as well - is that a necessary addition?

Thanks so much in advance for any help you can provide!

Pete

 

[jnesselrode]

I'm no expert but have done several batches and feel I'm somewhat proficient. Here's what I say to your questions:

1. In my experience, cider clears relatively quickly and doesn't require fining or filtering. We're talking a month or two.
2. I'll defer to others on the value of bulk aging. As to oak, my gut tells me it would be fine, but as a 1st timer it might be best pass on that. It sounds like you're coming from a wine background and know the benefit there. Cider is lighter-bodied and I think it would be easy to overdo it.
3. I have used 1-liter flip-top bottles several times and they are great. However, the current batch is going into 12-ounce beer bottles because I plan to give some away.
4. I dunno.
5. If you let it go to completion, SG remains constant for a month or so and it has cleared, you should be fine. Sorbate is not necessary but will prevent any remaining yeast from reproducing. It won't kill existing yeast though.

Finally, in-bottle carbonation and pasteurization does sound a little scary, but it is relatively easy. There is an excellent pinned post on the process, and significant later posts fine-tuning the process with lower temperatures and shorter times. There's nothing wrong with still, but carbonation really adds something good. You could do part of your batch and leave the rest still.

 

[PeterG]

Thanks @jnesselrode - that's helpful!

I definitely want to try to carbonate, I was just thinking of skipping the sweetening so I could avoid the pasteurization. But maybe I'll give it a try with part of the batch, as you suggest. Can flip-tops handle the pressure of in-bottle carbonation plus pasteurization? I also need to get my head around calculating the right amount of sugar to add to accomplish both. It looks like there are a lot of posts about that and some online calculators, so I'll try to read.

 

[jnesselrode]

Thanks @jnesselrode - that's helpful!

I definitely want to try to carbonate, I was just thinking of skipping the sweetening so I could avoid the pasteurization. But maybe I'll give it a try with part of the batch, as you suggest. Can flip-tops handle the pressure of in-bottle carbonation plus pasteurization? I also need to get my head around calculating the right amount of sugar to add to accomplish both. It looks like there are a lot of posts about that and some online calculators, so I'll try to read.

Flip tops can definitely handle it but the temp and time need to be carefully controlled with any pasteurization. I did it at 190 for 15 minutes, like suggested in the pinned post, but more recent info points to shorter time at lower temp like 149 for 10 minutes. I found the excellent reply I recently received from @Chalkyt when I asked about this recently. Here you go:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/back-sweetening-and-carbonation.701994/#post-10303388

 

[Rish]

Welcome to HBT!
1. Just give it time to clear. No need for multiple racking. I usually leave mine in the fv for 4-6 weeks and it's very clear.
2. Once it's clear you can go ahead and bottle then let it age so you aren't tying your fv or carboy. I haven't used oak.
3. Swing tops are fine.
4. Get your cider into the bottling bucket then see how much you have and use a carbonation calculator to determine how much sugar to add based on the level of carbonation you want. More precise, more control, cheaper.
5. I've never used a preservative and have kept ciders for several years with no problems. I have seen some folks talk about using ascorbic acid but I can't speak to that. Good luck!

 

[Raptor99]

Good cider is made from juice that has a good balance between sugar, acidity (tartness), and tannins (astringency). If your apple juice was from eating ("dessert") apples, it will be lacking in acid and tannins. So I usually end up adding some tannin and malic acid to my ciders.

For ciders lacking in tanning, a small amount of oak is very nice. I leave that in the carboys for 2-3 months of bulk aging and clearing. I think that cider benfits from aging for a few months.

To do bottle carbonation, the key is to ferment completely dry, then add the right amount of sugar. Carbonation drops make it easier, but they are more expensive.

If you want to bottle carbonate and have a semi-sweet cider, one option is to use a non-fermentable sweetener. I have had good results using Swerve, which is mostly erythritol.

 

[lumpher]

Don't use oak in cider. Not good. Age as long as you can stand it. After a year or so it becomes smooth wine instead of cider, and at 2 years is very nice. For carbonation, if you use the tabs 1 will be enough in 16 oz. You don't want the beer carbonic bite in cider.

 

[Chalkyt]

Most of what you asked has been answered above. however here is a different take on your questions 3 and 4 (i.e. this is the way I do it).

Swing tops are O.K. for dry carbonated cider but not for heat pasteurised sweet carbonated cider. The swing-top seals can leak above 70-80psi which is a sort of unintentional safety mechanism. Mind you, to reach this pressure with fully fermented cider you would need around 5 volumes of C02 at room temperature, so your priming sugar amount would be way off if you only wanted a little bit of fizz and your bottle would be a volcano. IME used swing-top seals can lose pressure over time.

As far as priming sugar is concerned. I work on roughly fermenting two gravity points per volume of C02. So, I add sugar to the bottling bucket to bring the cider up to the appropriate SG (say fully fermented SG1.000 cider brought up to 1.004 and bottled for 2.0 volumes of C02). This approach also let me use juice for priming which can be a nicer result than sugar or drops.

Sweet-carbonated cider is another story if you are using priming sugar or juice. I will bring the SG up to 1.010, bottle and monitor the pressure, then heat pasteurise to stop the yeast at 1.006. Same C02 result but 1.006 (11g/L) of residual sugar which is a bit over 1/2 tsp per 330ml (12 oz) bottle. I monitor the pressure by having a bottle with swing-top seal fitted with a pressure gauge. The "advantage" is that you can taste test the swing top bottle when the pressure seems about right... Yum!

Enjoy the journey.

Cheers!

 

[PeterG]

Good cider is made from juice that has a good balance between sugar, acidity (tartness), and tannins (astringency). If your apple juice was from eating ("dessert") apples, it will be lacking in acid and tannins. So I usually end up adding some tannin and malic acid to my ciders.

For ciders lacking in tanning, a small amount of oak is very nice. I leave that in the carboys for 2-3 months of bulk aging and clearing. I think that cider benfits from aging for a few months.

To do bottle carbonation, the key is to ferment completely dry, then add the right amount of sugar. Carbonation drops make it easier, but they are more expensive.

If you want to bottle carbonate and have a semi-sweet cider, one option is to use a non-fermentable sweetener. I have had good results using Swerve, which is mostly erythritol.

Thanks - this is helpful. Knowing what the local orchard grows, I think this cider was made from eating apples. I did check the pH - it was around 3.66 - and I added some acid targeting 3.4 or so. I haven't rechecked yet but I was conservative with the amount so might not have moved it too much. I used a mix of tartaric and citric acids - I didn't have any malic. I also added pectic enzyme but didn't have any tannins. I do have some oak cubes - maybe I will try it. But sounds like some others don't recommend. Maybe for my first time I will keep it simple. Thanks again!

 

[PeterG]

Most of what you asked has been answered above. however here is a different take on your questions 3 and 4 (i.e. this is the way I do it).

Swing tops are O.K. for dry carbonated cider but not for heat pasteurised sweet carbonated cider. The swing-top seals can leak above 70-80psi which is a sort of unintentional safety mechanism. Mind you, to reach this pressure with fully fermented cider you would need around 5 volumes of C02 at room temperature, so your priming sugar amount would be way off if you only wanted a little bit of fizz and your bottle would be a volcano. IME used swing-top seals can lose pressure over time.

As far as priming sugar is concerned. I work on roughly fermenting two gravity points per volume of C02. So, I add sugar to the bottling bucket to bring the cider up to the appropriate SG (say fully fermented SG1.000 cider brought up to 1.004 and bottled for 2.0 volumes of C02). This approach also let me use juice for priming which can be a nicer result than sugar or drops.

Sweet-carbonated cider is another story if you are using priming sugar or juice. I will bring the SG up to 1.010, bottle and monitor the pressure, then heat pasteurise to stop the yeast at 1.006. Same C02 result but 1.006 (11g/L) of residual sugar which is a bit over 1/2 tsp per 330ml (12 oz) bottle. I monitor the pressure by having a bottle with swing-top seal fitted with a pressure gauge. The "advantage" is that you can taste test the swing top bottle when the pressure seems about right... Yum!

Enjoy the journey.

Cheers!

Thanks @Chalkyt ! One question - are you using the pressure gauge to determine when you've dropped from 1.010 to 1.006 (based on the expected volume of CO2 generated), or are you repeatedly checking samples with your hydrometer? Seems like the latter would waste some bottles?