Sparge After Decoction

[Ryat66]

I am a pretty run of the mill all grain brewer, most of my brews are single infusion with a thin decoction for mash out followed by a fly sparge. Except I use a Hochkurz decoction mash for my weissbiers exclusively. I never have an issue sparging other styles but my weissbiers aren't so kind to me. I love the extra character of a decoction and that has become a standard for me when brewing weissbiers. However, I think the decoction further breaks down the grist over standard milling and thus causing my issues.

My recipe is pretty standard...
60% Avangard wheat
40% Avangard Pilsner
1 lb. rice hulls

Process wise I am happy with the decoction but when it comes time to sparge, it's always an adventure and yesterday I reached a new low. I had a stuck sparge that I could not unstick, blowing, sucking, stirring, etcetera were all unsuccessful. I ended up pulling the mash back out of the mash tun, scooping 1/4 of it back in, starting a slow vorlauf and slowing scooping the mash back in while juggling my vorlauf containers back into the tun. Once I had all of the mash back into the tun, I vorlaufed another 8-10 minutes and sparged as normal. Anyway, it was less than ideal and I've been thinking of ways to alleviate this issue.

Here's a few things I thought of:

-line the tun with a BIAB liner (maybe the mash is plugging the false bottom...?)
-add in a protein rest
-use the process I used yesterday and call it what it is...a compromise to do a decoction mash
-my false bottom is 9" in an 11" tun and may not be ideal

Thank you in advance for any input you might have.

 

[giraffe]

I never had a problem with stuck sparges with double decocted hefes (i usually use a half a lb of rice hulls). When you stir the decoction back in, are you knocking the falsebottom and letting grain in underneath? The false bottom that came with my mash tun did this, and I had to swap it out for a bazooka style false bottom.

 

[Ryat66]

I never had a problem with stuck sparges with double decocted hefes (i usually use a half a lb of rice hulls). When you stir the decoction back in, are you knocking the falsebottom and letting grain in underneath? The false bottom that came with my mash tun did this, and I had to swap it out for a bazooka style false bottom.

This is an excellent question but I'm not 100% sure. I guess it's very possible when you consider that I do my decoctions in the kettle and then transfer to my mash tun. Perhaps dumping the mash from the kettle to the tun is lifting the false bottom.

 

[tsl346]

I haven't experienced but I also haven't done many decoctions. You might try adding in rice hulls when you add your decocted grains back into the mash tun before sparge. This will likely mess up your water amounts and you will have to account for it but it would be better than a stuck sparge.

 

[RM-MN]

I am a pretty run of the mill all grain brewer, most of my brews are single infusion with a thin decoction for mash out followed by a fly sparge. Except I use a Hochkurz decoction mash for my weissbiers exclusively. I never have an issue sparging other styles but my weissbiers aren't so kind to me. I love the extra character of a decoction and that has become a standard for me when brewing weissbiers. However, I think the decoction further breaks down the grist over standard milling and thus causing my issues.

My recipe is pretty standard...
60% Avangard wheat
40% Avangard Pilsner
1 lb. rice hulls

Process wise I am happy with the decoction but when it comes time to sparge, it's always an adventure and yesterday I reached a new low. I had a stuck sparge that I could not unstick, blowing, sucking, stirring, etcetera were all unsuccessful. I ended up pulling the mash back out of the mash tun, scooping 1/4 of it back in, starting a slow vorlauf and slowing scooping the mash back in while juggling my vorlauf containers back into the tun. Once I had all of the mash back into the tun, I vorlaufed another 8-10 minutes and sparged as normal. Anyway, it was less than ideal and I've been thinking of ways to alleviate this issue.

Here's a few things I thought of:

-line the tun with a BIAB liner (maybe the mash is plugging the false bottom...?)
-add in a protein rest
-use the process I used yesterday and call it what it is...a compromise to do a decoction mash
-my false bottom is 9" in an 11" tun and may not be ideal

Thank you in advance for any input you might have.

It's pretty hard to stick a BIAB batch unless you continuously recirculate so you plug all the pores of the bag. I've made a roggenbier with too much rye in it and had to really squeeze the bag to get the wort out but I succeeded. Wheat beers seem to be no problem.

A protein rest is sometime suggested for a wheat beer to break down some of the protein. I've never tried that.

False bottoms are supposed to fit the mash tun so grains cannot fit around the edges and can't get underneath. The bag you suggested above should work well with a false bottom since the bag won't let the grains under the false bottom but the false bottom will keep the bag above the bottom of the tun so it will drain without having to be lifted.:rockin:

 

[Ryat66]

It's pretty hard to stick a BIAB batch unless you continuously recirculate so you plug all the pores of the bag. I've made a roggenbier with too much rye in it and had to really squeeze the bag to get the wort out but I succeeded. Wheat beers seem to be no problem.

A protein rest is sometime suggested for a wheat beer to break down some of the protein. I've never tried that.

False bottoms are supposed to fit the mash tun so grains cannot fit around the edges and can't get underneath. The bag you suggested above should work well with a false bottom since the bag won't let the grains under the false bottom but the false bottom will keep the bag above the bottom of the tun so it will drain without having to be lifted.:rockin:

I have an ~11 gallon tun. Where does one find a BIAB for something that size?

 

[RM-MN]

I have an ~11 gallon tun. Where does one find a BIAB for something that size?

One of the regulars here on HomeBrewTalk, Wilserbrewer, custom makes them. Give him the measurements for your tun and it will fit. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/members/wilserbrewer/

 

[finsel]

Hi,

My cent:
When I started to brew I builded one BIAB machine just like Braumeister. Then build a second and third version until o face problems with Sparge like you.
Then I started to think: "Why Germans guys makes the beer to 1000years in same way and now I think that I'm using a better method.. " This phrase buggy me for long period and I put in a paper all benefits and problems with this methos. Then I re-build everything in my kitchen to old method and then I excluded several problems. ( machine in youtube: finselbr).
Note: I'm still face problems but not so painfull.


About your problem what I can say is:

- Wheat contain large protein chains that must be reduced to prevent your problem. So, protein rest is necessary to equilibrate this point. The todays malts are very modified, including wheat, but the proteins still there.

- Decoction main idea is reduce too this protein chains preventing your problem , so review which part from your tun you are getting the decoction liquid part. Try to get the bottom where the large protein be.

- Try to reduce your pump velocity.

- Do not grid too much your malts

- Use filter bag with greater hole and others bag outside it with small hole. Not sure if this solve anything .. didn´t tried.

Well, it is just my ideas... I hope help you !

thank you!
Frank