Skunky taste/aroma in belgian tripel when racking to secondary

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jmarshall

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After 8 days in primary, I racked my belgian tripel (first all grain batch) to secondary. I noticed a definite skunky beer smell. I also sampled some that I used to do a gravity reading and had a definite heineken taste to it. Certainly didn't have the fruity notes I was hoping for and expected given the aroma that it had been giving off from the airlock during fermentation. I'm a little confused and have a few questions.

1. How much sunlight does it usually take to skunkiness? It started fermenting in a closet in my basement but moved to a closet in an upstairs room to finish at a higher temp. That room is fairly bright, but the closet door was closed. Some light does get through under the door, but I still wouldn't have expected that much effect. If that didn't cause it, are there any other common causes of this problem?

2. I planned for about 2 weeks in secondary and then a fair bit of time for bottle conditioning. Any chance it will lose some of this off flavor in the process, or am I pretty much screwed and should start over?
 
1. I can't imagine enough light got through/under the closet door to skunk your beer, though I suppose it is possible. What are you fermenting in? How much hops did you use? I once had a glass of Dogfish Head 60 minute IPA skunk while I was drinking it - extreme case here with a hoppy beer being drank out in the midday sun in summer, but the point is that skunking can happen fast

2. What yeast are you using? And at what temp? Some yeast are prone to giving off some sulfur, particularly at certain temps. In a most cases this sulfur aroma/flavor will dissipate (but not if it is truly skunked though)

Lastly, I think you you may be rushing your beer. For any beer, but especially for something like a tripel, I would never rack it out of the primary vessel after only 8 days. I would let it go for at least 3 weeks, but probably longer depending on the OG. In addition to fermenting, the yeast can help a lot in terms of cleaning up by products of the fermentation process. By racking too soon, you are preventing the yeast from doing this.
 
8 days?? I can't think of hardly any beer that should come off of the primary in 8 days... why did you secondary? Tripels don't usually have a lot of hops... were you dry hopping? Why did you do this lol
 
malt & fermentables
% LB OZ MALT OR FERMENTABLE PPG °L
76% 11 0 Weyermann Pilsner 37 2 ~
10% 1 8 Flaked Wheat 34 2 ~
9% 1 4 Belgian Candy Sugar Light 36 0 ~
3% 0 6 Belgian CaraVienne 34 22 ~
3% 0 6 Belgian Biscuit Malt 35 24 ~
14 8
Batch size: 5.5 gallons
Original Gravity
1.072 measured
(1.068 estimated)
Final Gravity
1.012 measured
(1.017 estimated)
Color
6° SRM / 12° EBC
(Yellow to Gold)
Mash Efficiency
76% measured
(70% used for O.G. estimate)
hops
USE TIME OZ VARIETY FORM AA
boil 60 mins 1.0 Brewer's Gold plug 9.7
boil 20 mins 1.0 Saaz plug 4.1
boil 1 min 1.0 Mt. Hood plug 6.0
Boil: 6.0 avg gallons for 60 minutes
Bitterness
35.1 IBU / 10 HBU
ƒ: Tinseth
BU:GU
0.52
yeast
Wyeast Belgian Abby Ale (1214)
ale yeast in liquid form with low to medium flocculation and 75% attenuation
Alcohol
8.0% ABV / 6% ABW
(6.8% est. ABV / 5% est. ABW)
Calories
224 per 12 oz.

This is the recipe I am using. Primary was in 6.5 gallon carboy, secondary is 5 gallon carboy. Fermentation temp started 68F and rose to 78F over the course of 4 days. I really don't mean to rush this, in fact I was planning a long bottle conditioning process. I was under the impression that there would be enough yeast left in suspension in secondary to keep cleaning up any off flavors. I am still pretty new at this, so my thinking may be way off and I am totally fine with anyone correcting me, but I thought the general process is when you hit target gravity you could rack to secondary if planned and that it was better for longer aging to get off non-viable and possibly autolyzing yeast in the cake. I am aware from reading a few books that this may be old thinking, but I thought it still held true for longer aging. I know you can't always directly translate processes from production breweries to homebrewing, but all of the beers in BRAM had quite short primary fermentation and longer secondary/bottle conditioning phases. Chimay was the most striking, not that I think I could replicate that at home. Anyway, I appreciate the comments and it is good to know that it is not likely the light causing skunking at this point, but a flawed process. I do have to say I am suprised at the lack of a high amount of fruity esters. I thought at this ferm temp and using 1214 I would have a ton of banana notes that needed clean-up. Would have been preferable, actually.
 
8 days?? I can't think of hardly any beer that should come off of the primary in 8 days... why did you secondary? Tripels don't usually have a lot of hops... were you dry hopping? Why did you do this lol

I must suck as a brewer then, as I do that when I'm making a bigger beer if the beer is at FG. Not always, but I don't keep everything in the primary the whole time. I would rack a triple in 8 days if the FG was reached, though.

You guys are being pretty hard on someone who is going by accepted homebrewing practices.
 
I was under the impression that there would be enough yeast left in suspension in secondary to keep cleaning up any off flavors. .

That's sort of what people have been saying, but in my experience "off-flavors" don't really clean up. The idea would to ensure that fermentation conditions are right in the first place (pitch the right amount of yeast at the right temperature, keep the fermentation temperature correct, etc) and there wouldn't be any off-flavors to clean up. Diacetyl is one off-flavor that CAN be cleaned up by yeast activity, but not other flavors like chlorophenols, fusels, etc. Conditioning does help smooth out flavors.

I'm not one for the "month in primary" bandwagon, so if you're beer was at FG and it had been there for more than a week, that's not the issue at all.

I've never heard of Wyeast 1214 giving off skunky flavors, but maybe it's possible that you have a hint of sulfur or something? I can't imagine what could be causing some skunkiness.
 
Yooper said:
You guys are being pretty hard on someone who is going by accepted homebrewing practices.

*hands in pockets, studying shoelaces... scuffing feet*
 
Thanks Yooper. My plan was 2 weeks in secondary, 3 day cold crash at the end, bottle with new yeast and sugar, then at least a month of bottle conditioning at 68F. I guess I will just have to wait and see.
 
I would guess that it's DMS you're detecting since it seems you only did a 60 minute boil with Pilsner Malt. Personally I'm in the no secondary camp and leaving the beer alone for a minimum of 2 weeks but to each his own on that.
 
Yooper said:
I must suck as a brewer then, as I do that when I'm making a bigger beer if the beer is at FG. Not always, but I don't keep everything in the primary the whole time. I would rack a triple in 8 days if the FG was reached, though.

You guys are being pretty hard on someone who is going by accepted homebrewing practices.

I see your point Yoop, but I still think 8 days is too quick on the homebrew level. In general, we homebrewers tend to underpitch and underaerate, especially as noobs. Not sure of the experience level of the OP, but with this high a gravity of a beer I wonder if 8 days was enough.

Regardless of the whole primary vs secondary debate, I think there is a benefit to bulk aging larger beers before bottling. I would rather extend the secondary time with this beer than the bottle conditioning time. Especially if the OP is experiencing sulfur aromas/taste.
 
Jlem - I'm still pretty inexperienced. I've brewed a few extract batches and read several of the popular books (Palmer book, Designing Great Beers, BLAM) but of course that doesn't replace experience, which is why I come here to ask you guys.

It wasn't supposed to be quite this high gravity, shot for about 1.068, planned on calling it a fairly strong blonde, but now I'm closer to tripel territory. Pitched two smack packs, so rate is supposedly 200 billion but who knows. I'll use a starter next time and have plenty of washed yeast from this batch. Aeration was vigorously shaking the carboy for over an hour at lower temps than I pitched, I figured lower temps might help retain some dissolved O2. I let it come up before pitching. Still, probably underoxygenated and I'm going to buy a diffusion stone for the next one.

How long would you leave it in secondary. 1 month? more?
 
Jlem - I'm still pretty inexperienced. I've brewed a few extract batches and read several of the popular books (Palmer book, Designing Great Beers, BLAM) but of course that doesn't replace experience, which is why I come here to ask you guys.

It wasn't supposed to be quite this high gravity, shot for about 1.068, planned on calling it a fairly strong blonde, but now I'm closer to tripel territory. Pitched two smack packs, so rate is supposedly 200 billion but who knows. I'll use a starter next time and have plenty of washed yeast from this batch. Aeration was vigorously shaking the carboy for over an hour at lower temps than I pitched, I figured lower temps might help retain some dissolved O2. I let it come up before pitching. Still, probably underoxygenated and I'm going to buy a diffusion stone for the next one.

How long would you leave it in secondary. 1 month? more?

We all start off inexperienced - and even though I feel like I have learned a lot, I'm still only a 3rd year home brewer with a few dozen brews under my belt, so I'm certainly not an expert by any means. This is why I love this forum - lots of folks giving great advice and offering suggestions to help everyone advance their craft. Yooper is certainly someone to listen to so I am hard-pressed to disagree with her, but that is also the beauty of this hobby and these forums - different ideas, different approaches, but still striving to help each other make great beer.

Anyway...back to the question at hand. For a beer of this gravity, I probably would have left it in the primary vessel for 4 weeks and then gone right to the bottles. Since you moved it on day 8, I would give it another few weeks in the secondary before bottling. One thing I have learned is that patience and not rushing things improves the beer. Not all beers need a month in the carboy, but you've got yourself an 8% ABV beer here and I think it is going to need some time to come into its own.

If you put sulfury beer into the bottles, where is the sulfur going to go? By leaving it in a carboy for a while, you are going to allow the sulfur to off-gas. (though, I wonder if any sulfur compounds are metabolized by yeast?).

Keep us posted on what you decide to do and how the beer develops. :mug:
 
Jlem - I'm still pretty inexperienced. I've brewed a few extract batches and read several of the popular books (Palmer book, Designing Great Beers, BLAM) but of course that doesn't replace experience, which is why I come here to ask you guys.

It wasn't supposed to be quite this high gravity, shot for about 1.068, planned on calling it a fairly strong blonde, but now I'm closer to tripel territory. Pitched two smack packs, so rate is supposedly 200 billion but who knows. I'll use a starter next time and have plenty of washed yeast from this batch. Aeration was vigorously shaking the carboy for over an hour at lower temps than I pitched, I figured lower temps might help retain some dissolved O2. I let it come up before pitching. Still, probably underoxygenated and I'm going to buy a diffusion stone for the next one.

How long would you leave it in secondary. 1 month? more?

With two smack packs, that's still underpitching a bit, I'd guess. For the next batch, check out mrmalty.com and go to his "yeast pitching calculator". That will help you decide the correct amount of yeast that should be used. The sulfur aroma might be from stressed yeast and may fade in the carboy.
 
I know this is harped on time and time gain. But for ANY beer leave it on the cake in primary for at least 3 weeks. Consider it a post fermentation conditioning phase.

I really dont understand why people pull it immediately after its done fermenting. Just let it chill then after 3-4 weeks you can secondary it if you want to clear or are adding other stuff to it. Or in my case free up my 6.5 gal carboy to brew another batch.

Patience young padawan......
 
Two smack packs is an under pitch? I will beg to differ with you, one smack pack, fully inflated, contains a ton of yeast, two of them is 2x a ton of yeast. I tried out Mr. Malty once, I was making a 90GP black lager, it said I needed a 2.5g starter, I pitched in 2 dry yeast packets and it shot off within 12h. The whole point of the smack packs is that they are essentially a starter.

You also don't need an O2 stone, several books I have read basically say that the amount of O2 that gets dissolved still wouldn't be enough for optimal pitching rates, in fact optimal O2 is almost impossible to get in the home brew setting. The thing that I do (and it works brillinatly) go out and get a large sieve or strainer. Pour your wort through that, once or twice, you get a ton of foam and a lot of dissolved air.

Getting back to the smell, let it sit for a while. If you fermented in a bucket, you do not have skunked beer. I would say that 8 days is still a very short time, not the shortest, but I am a 2 weaker, esp for big beers, and for big lagers, 3 weeks min. Also, I made a tripple once and it was undrinkable after about 2 or 3 months, the alcohol burn was very harsh. I let it sit for about 5-6 months, it was great. Give it time, I would make a smaller beer, maybe a wit or a heff, in the meantime and enjoy the triple in the later summer.
 
The whole point of the smack packs is that they are essentially a starter.

Not so. Even Wyeast doesn't make that claim!
From Wyeast:
Activator Package:
The Wyeast Activator (125 ml) smack-pack is designed to directly inoculate 5 gallons of standard ale wort (O.G. < 1.060, 65-72°F). When brewing high gravity beer (O.G. >1.060) or cold fermented lagers or ales (<65 °F)) additional yeast will be required. An Activator contains approximately 100 billion cells which will deliver slightly less than 6 million cells per milliliter to a 5 gallon batch of beer. The quantity of yeast needed varies for style of beer and yeast strain to be used. Original gravity and temperature are both also major factors. When the original gravity increases, the amount of yeast added also needs to increase (see High Gravity Brewing for more information).

That comes from Wyeast, not from me. So, two packages may have been enough, but depending on the age of the package and the condition, it may have not been. A starter, even with two packages, may have been required.

Also from Wyeast: (shows that you need at least 12 million cells/ml for an OG of more than 1.060.)

Standard Pitching Rates:
STYLE
GRAVITY
PITCH RATE
(Million Cells/ml.)
Ale
<1.060 (15P°)
6 .00 million cells/ml

Ale
1.061-1.076 (15-19P°)
12.00 million cells/ml

Ale
>1.076 (19P°)
>18.00 million cells/ml

How Does Pitch Rate Affect My Beer?
Pitch rates make a dramatic difference in the final flavor and aroma profile of any beer. Ester production is directly related to yeast growth as are most other flavor and aroma compounds.

A low pitch rate can lead to:
•Excess levels of diacetyl
•Increase in higher/fusel alcohol formation
•Increase in ester formation
•Increase in volatile sulfur compounds
•High terminal gravities
•Stuck fermentations
•Increased risk of infection
High pitch rates can lead to:
•Very low ester production
•Very fast fermentations
•Thin or lacking body/mouthfeel
•Autolysis (Yeasty flavors due to lysing of cells)
•Never re-use yeast from a high gravity fermentation (greater than 1.065 original gravity).
•Never re-use yeast from an irregular fermentation (long lag-time, long fermentation, poor clearing, high terminal gravity, etc.)
•Never re-use yeast from a fermentation with off flavors and aromas (excess diacetyl, phenols, sulfur compounds, etc.)

•Never re-use yeast if you are not confident in your sanitation and brewing practices.
•Do not store yeast for long periods before re-use (longer than 2 weeks typically).

You also don't need an O2 stone, several books I have read basically say that the amount of O2 that gets dissolved still wouldn't be enough for optimal pitching rates, in fact optimal O2 is almost impossible to get in the home brew setting. The thing that I do (and it works brillinatly) go out and get a large sieve or strainer. Pour your wort through that, once or twice, you get a ton of foam and a lot of dissolved air.

You can easily get 8 ppm of O2 in a homebrew setting, just from shaking it for a long time, or even using an aquarium pump with a stone for 30 minutes. An 02 stone is much better than pouring, once or twice. To get an optimal amount, pouring like that would take much longer.

You can make beer with underpitching and underaerating, that's for sure. But no way would it be good practice, even if it does work for some brewers.
Again, from Wyeast:

How Much Oxygen?
Oxygen requirement is variable depending on: yeast strain employed, original gravity of wort, and wort trub levels.

Some yeast strains have higher oxygen requirements than others. It is generally safe to assume that you need at least 10ppm of oxygen. 10ppm will supply adequate oxygen in most situations. Over-oxygenation is generally not a concern as the yeast will use all available oxygen within 3 to 9 hours of pitching and oxygen will come out of solution during that time as well. Under-oxygenation is a much bigger concern.

High original gravity (>1.065) wort, in addition to increasing osmotic stress on yeast, can cause problems with achieving adequate levels of dissolved oxygen. As the gravity of wort increases, solubility of oxygen decreases. Increased temperatures also decrease the solubility of wort.

The unsaturated fatty acids found in wort trub can be utilized by yeast for membrane synthesis. If wort trub levels are low, yeast will need to synthesize more of these lipids and therefore will require more oxygen.

______________________________________________________________

I hate making long posts, but I think those were important to dispell any myths about yeast health and pitching rates. Even Wyeast would say that oxygenation is criticial, and so is the right pitching rate. Stressed yeast can and will cause some poor flavors that will NOT be cleaned up by a long primary.

Also, keep in mind that even two packages with a starter (to hit that 12 million cells per milliliter) will depend on the age of the yeast and the handling. A brand new, fresh-from-the-manufacturer yeast pack will have more cells than one that's been sitting around the homebrew store for a few months!
 
Also, keep in mind that even two packages with a starter (to hit that 12 million cells per milliliter) will depend on the age of the yeast and the handling. A brand new, fresh-from-the-manufacturer yeast pack will have more cells than one that's been sitting around the homebrew store for a few months!

This does make a lot of sense. One of the packages was packaged in february and the swelling of the pack was less than impressive. The second one was from May and swelled like crazy. Hopefully if these are truly volatile sulfur compounds, they will evolute with long secondary. Either way, I'll give it a month or so and see how it is. Like someone else pointed out, even if I should have left in primary for a while, at least now I have my 6.5 gal carboy free for a lower gravity batch. Again, I didn't quite mean for this to be as high gravity anyway, was shooting for 1.067 or so and ended up about 5 points above that, not that it would make that much difference.

Thanks to all who have commented. I'll keep you all posted on the progress.
 
Yooper said:
The unsaturated fatty acids found in wort trub can be utilized by yeast for membrane synthesis. If wort trub levels are low, yeast will need to synthesize more of these lipids and therefore will require more oxygen.

_

Hold on a minute... this is off subject, but is your information here stating that trub is good?
 
Hold on a minute... this is off subject, but is your information here stating that trub is good?

Hahaha- it sure seems to imply that, doesn't it!?! But I just copied it from Wyeast's site, and there is no further information on that available that I can see. My cold break has always gone in the fermenter (and especially now that I have a CFC) and I've read that it can be a "yeast nutrient" but I know Jamil Zainasheff has said that hot break should be strained out if possible due to some possible issues with off flavors.
 
Just an update: Bottled the beer I started this topic on today, 3 weeks in secondary and then 1 week cold storage near freezing. Sulfur odor is gone and the beer tastes much less green. Other than being slightly darker than I was intending, I am satisfied with the result so far. Thanks for the help to all who replied.
 
Not sure anyone will be interested, but wanted to give another update on this batch. All the pro's on here will fuss at me, I'm sure, but I decided to pop one of this batch open tonight to see what it is like, knowing that it will improve with some age. I was extremely happy with the result. I was shooting for something similar to Chimay Cinq Cents, and it is a hair darker than I expected but still close to the golden color of the index beer. It has all the fruity character and a pleasant background hop aroma. There is a hint of solventy warmth in the aftertaste but overall I'm very pleased! I bottled half at about 3 volumes in regular bottles and half in 750 ml champagne bottles at about 4 volumes. I'm going to wait a month or two before popping one of those bad boys, but really excited. recipe is here in case anyone is interested: http://hopville.com/recipe/688429/belgian-blond-ale-recipes/belgian-blonde
 
Im interested. Im sure the hotness will come down with age. I have a 12% abv belgian 3 weeks into primary and it smells and tastes like banana/clove flavored rocket fuel. Im going to let it go a total of 6 weeks, repitch a little champagne yeast in the bottling bucket, and give it at least 6 months before I drink any.
 
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