Seltzer Questions....

[Rob2010SS]

There's been a ton of Seltzer threads and they seem to be on-going so I didn't want to hijack someone else's questions.

We've never been big fans of the seltzers, just not our thing. However, we had one that was done a bit differently by More Brewing in Huntley, IL. We loved it.

It's a blackberry lemon fruited seltzer using real fruit puree. I picked the brewers brain on how they did it and I was about to dive into it head first without even checking on the forum, but I checked HBT and saw a lot of people have problems with some of the methods they used. So I'm curious on thoughts here...

1. More used a soft water profile, similar for NEIPAs and they used corn sugar (seems to be a standard approach so far).
2. The brewer I spoke with said they used a lot of yeast nutrient. He said before adding fruit, it almost had a bready flavor from the nutrient but the fruit covered it up. (Never heard this before. Is this what you guys experience?)
3. I was informed that they fermented with champagne yeast. This is the part the wife and I loved. It had a nice dry finish like a champagne would. We loved it. (We want to emulate this as well but have heard that a lot of people have had problems with champagne yeast and getting it to ferment out? This still the case?)
4. In regards to the fruit, he told me it was approx. 23% fruit puree per barrel. He said on a home brew scale, he'd go 4 gal of seltzer to 1 gal fruit puree. (Nothing out of the ordinary here...)
5. Once fruit is added, I was told they added potassium sorbate to prevent refermentation of the fruit. (I've done this before as well so nothing new here, just need to figure out dosage).

Thanks in advance for your thoughts and feedback.

 

[VikeMan]

3. I was informed that they fermented with champagne yeast. This is the part the wife and I loved. It had a nice dry finish like a champagne would. We loved it. (We want to emulate this as well but have heard that a lot of people have had problems with champagne yeast and getting it to ferment out? This still the case?)

With a seltzer, even a fruited one, any yeast strain that doesn't reach its ABV tolerance or quit due to lack of nutrients should ferment to the same dryness. There's nothing special about champagne yeast in that regard.

 

[Rob2010SS]

With a seltzer, even a fruited one, any yeast strain that doesn't reach its ABV tolerance or quit due to lack of nutrients should ferment to the same dryness. There's nothing special about champagne yeast in that regard.

Let me rephrase - to me, when I drink champagne, there's a certain finish and flavor that champagne has that isn't present in wine or beer typically. I don't know if it's literally how dry it is or not but based on what you said, I'm assuming it's yeast character then. That's really what we are shooting for. I may have misspoke using the term "dry".

 

[VikeMan]

Let me rephrase - to me, when I drink champagne, there's a certain finish and flavor that champagne has that isn't present in wine or beer typically. I don't know if it's literally how dry it is or not but based on what you said, I'm assuming it's yeast character then. That's really what we are shooting for. I may have misspoke using the term "dry".

My guess would be the high carbonation, which enhances the perception of dryness. Champagne strains are pretty much known for very neutral character.

 

[Rob2010SS]

My guess would be the high carbonation, which enhances the perception of dryness. Champagne strains are pretty much known for very neutral character.

It definitely wasn't super high carbonation. Based on experience, I'd say like a 2.5-3 vols of CO2. I'll ask the brewer though and see if he tells me that. It definitely didn't seem very high when drinking it.

 

[rjbergen]

I'm curious about more details if they'll share. I'd be curious how many volumes of CO2 they use for carbonation. I'm also curious about the fruit puree and when they add it. Do they allow it to settle out and rack off of it?

I've tried my hand at 3 separate batches of seltzer so far. The first 2 were fermented EC-1118. One of those used Fermaid-O nutrient and the other used Propper Seltzer nutrient. The third batch was a 10 gal. batch in our Spike CF-10 and used Omega Lutra and Propper Seltzer nutrient. The third batch is kegged, but we haven't flavored it yet.

Carbonation runs high, I aim for 3 - 3.2 volumes of CO2. I fined all of the batches with gelatin.

Both of the first two batches are pretty good. We used Olive Nation flavor extracts. One we mixed lemon and lime, and the other we mixed cherry and lime.

 

[Rob2010SS]

In regards to the fruit puree, they told us that the product they use is in a liquid state and becomes homogenous with the beer when added, so there's no need to rack off of it. We bought the Amoretti Craft Puree Blackberry and in our bench trial last night, it is a pure liquid that mixes completely and easily. They add it in the tank along with potassium sorbate and by the time it's carbonated, everything is mixed nicely and is one homogenous solution.

I will say that the amount of puree that they use is ridiculous. We are going with it to try it and see how close we can get to what they made but it is priiiiiccccceeeeeyyyyyy!

 

[rjbergen]

In regards to the fruit puree, they told us that the product they use is in a liquid state and becomes homogenous with the beer when added, so there's no need to rack off of it. We bought the Amoretti Craft Puree Blackberry and in our bench trial last night, it is a pure liquid that mixes completely and easily. They add it in the tank along with potassium sorbate and by the time it's carbonated, everything is mixed nicely and is one homogenous solution.

I will say that the amount of puree that they use is ridiculous. We are going with it to try it and see how close we can get to what they made but it is priiiiiccccceeeeeyyyyyy!

We just kegged a Berliner Wiesse on Sunday and split the 10 gal. batch to 2 kegs. One got a can of tart cherry puree and the other got a can of peach puree. We added potassium sorbate as well to prevent secondary fermentation. The Berliner was cold crashed for about 3 weeks and then I got lazy and turned off the glycol and allowed it to warm back up for a few more weeks before kegging. It's been 8 or 10 weeks since brew day lol

We used Oregon Fruit Puree/Vintner's Harvest (same company, different labels for the market) in the 49 fl. oz. cans. They were about $25 each! The puree was very liquid, but had some particulate. I'm wondering if that will settle out in the keg and give a chunky first pint or two.

 

[VikeMan]

FWIW, Amoretti makes some really useful products, including their "craft purees." But they are really not purees, at least not in the sense that most of us think of fruit purees, i.e. pureed fruit.

The Raspberry Craft Puree, for example, lists the following as its top four ingredients... water, cane sugar, dextrose, fructose. "Blackberry" comes in at #7.

I mention this because I've seen people assume that these products are equivalent to normal purees recipe-wise, which is not the case.

 

[Rob2010SS]

FWIW, Amoretti makes some really useful products, including their "craft purees." But they are really not purees, at least not in the sense that most of us think of fruit purees, i.e. pureed fruit.

The Raspberry Craft Puree, for example, lists the following as its top four ingredients... water, cane sugar, dextrose, fructose. "Blackberry" comes in at #7.

I mention this because I've seen people assume that these products are equivalent to normal purees recipe-wise, which is not the case.

I had a feeling. It's not like your typical puree, that's for sure. I should have looked at the ingredients and figured that out. You have me questioning if we should go with it or not. I'm wondering if we should go with the Vintner's Harvest instead....

 

[rjbergen]

I had a feeling. It's not like your typical puree, that's for sure. I should have looked at the ingredients and figured that out. You have me questioning if we should go with it or not. I'm wondering if we should go with the Vintner's Harvest instead....

I would. I looked at Amoretti, but they all seem fake. I didn't find much that was pure, unadulterated fruit.

My can of Oregon Fruit Purees Tart Cherry Puree says, "Ingredients: Red Tart Cherries". My can of Vintner's Harvest Peach Puree says, "Ingredients: Peaches, citric acid, ascorbic acid".

Right from Amoretti's website page for the Blackberry Craft Puree: "Ingredients: water, cane sugar, dextrose, fructose, plant extractives, food acids (citric acid, ascorbic acid), blackberry, natural flavor. May contain milk, tree nuts, peanuts, soya, egg & wheat."

Why is blackberry the 7th (or 8th if you count the 2 food acids separately) ingredient in a Blackberry Craft Puree?
What are "plant extractives"?
Why may it contain "milk, tree nuts, peanuts, soya, egg & wheat"?

 

[Rob2010SS]

I would. I looked at Amoretti, but they all seem fake. I didn't find much that was pure, unadulterated fruit.

My can of Oregon Fruit Purees Tart Cherry Puree says, "Ingredients: Red Tart Cherries". My can of Vintner's Harvest Peach Puree says, "Ingredients: Peaches, citric acid, ascorbic acid".

Right from Amoretti's website page for the Blackberry Craft Puree: "Ingredients: water, cane sugar, dextrose, fructose, plant extractives, food acids (citric acid, ascorbic acid), blackberry, natural flavor. May contain milk, tree nuts, peanuts, soya, egg & wheat."

Why is blackberry the 7th (or 8th if you count the 2 food acids separately) ingredient in a Blackberry Craft Puree?
What are "plant extractives"?
Why may it contain "milk, tree nuts, peanuts, soya, egg & wheat"?

The settling that we've experienced with the Vintners Harvest purees in the fermenter is what has me concerned. We're only getting 1 keg of this and I don't want to lose that much to sediment. Not sure what we'll do just yet...

 

[cmac62]

I understand the idea of fermenting a seltzer, but man I think you can get there much quicker using good clean water and top shelf vodka, then you wouldn't need to worry about stabilizing, and add the flavoring when you pour it. If anyone has tried the Belching Beaver seltzer it is really good, but it is not clear, and on the can they say this is because they use real fruit instead of clear fruit. LOL The Guava is the best.

Edit: I have purchased some Apex Flavorings stuff for my beer, but some of it is all natural (whatever that means) and it doesn't take much.

 

[jerrylotto]

I'm going to put in a plug for 100% pure pomegranate juice concentrate. The stuff I use comes from a company called "Dynamic Health" and it flavors an outstanding seltzer IMHO.

 

[VikeMan]

I had a feeling. It's not like your typical puree, that's for sure. I should have looked at the ingredients and figured that out. You have me questioning if we should go with it or not. I'm wondering if we should go with the Vintner's Harvest instead....

Is it what the brewer said they use? If so, and I were trying to replicate that seltzer, I'd use it. Or did you think it might be it because they said "in a liquid state and becomes homogenous with the beer when added?"

If they didn't specify the product... what kind of concentration did they say to use? That could be a big clue.

 

[Rob2010SS]

Is it what the brewer said they use? If so, and I were trying to replicate that seltzer, I'd use it. Or did you think it might be it because they said "in a liquid state and becomes homogenous with the beer when added?"

If they didn't specify the product... what kind of concentration did they say to use? That could be a big clue.

I reached out to him last night. I explained to him that we bought the Amoretti stuff and did a bench trial with it and I wasn't getting the same flavor or color using the same amounts that he did. He confirmed that they used a product like the Vintners Harvest fruit puree in theirs but wouldn't tell me what the product was. Granted, I didn't pry as he's already giving me more info than he has to. I asked him about the settling and how they got around it and he said they were rolling those kegs every day to keep the fruit in suspension, and admitted that it was a pain in the ass.

Part of my issue with the Amoretti product was I was picking up on a slight medicinal taste and the brewer I've been talking to has confirmed that is their problem with Amoretti as well. Although he said they've used it occasionally to help with aroma on some of their other seltzers and beers.

As far as concentration, he's already told me it was about 23% fruit per barrel.

 

[Rob2010SS]

I understand the idea of fermenting a seltzer, but man I think you can get there much quicker using good clean water and top shelf vodka, then you wouldn't need to worry about stabilizing, and add the flavoring when you pour it. If anyone has tried the Belching Beaver seltzer it is really good, but it is not clear, and on the can they say this is because they use real fruit instead of clear fruit. LOL The Guava is the best.

Edit: I have purchased some Apex Flavorings stuff for my beer, but some of it is all natural (whatever that means) and it doesn't take much.

I hear you. However, my wife and I both hate Truly/White Claws etc. We're not going for that kind of seltzer. This seltzer that we're trying to replicate is not like anything we've ever had.

When we had this seltzer that we're trying to replicate, we were just starting a brewery run. We hit 5 breweries that day with this being the first one. We tried seltzers at the other places and they were no where near what this one was and they weren't very good. Prior to this, we had no interest in making a seltzer. But sometimes you have something that just blows your mind and you must have it! LOL.

 

[Rob2010SS]

Is it what the brewer said they use? If so, and I were trying to replicate that seltzer, I'd use it. Or did you think it might be it because they said "in a liquid state and becomes homogenous with the beer when added?"

If they didn't specify the product... what kind of concentration did they say to use? That could be a big clue.

In regards to your first question, when we were talking with him at the brewery, my wife thought she heard him say they used Amoretti. So that's why we went that route first.

Last night we cancelled our Amoretti order and ordered the Vintners Harvest puree.

 

[VikeMan]

Last night we cancelled our Amoretti order and ordered the Vintners Harvest puree.

Good call. 23% fruit (either by weight or by volume) would pretty much rule out Amoretti Craft Puree, even if the brewer hadn't clarified that.

 

[Rob2010SS]

Good call. 23% fruit (either by weight or by volume) would pretty much rule out Amoretti Craft Puree, even if the brewer hadn't clarified that.

Can I ask why you say that? What am I missing there?

 

[VikeMan]

Can I ask why you say that? What am I missing there?

The Amoretti Craft "Purees" tend to have a very strong flavor compared normal purees "pound for pound." I have no idea why, since they seem to be mostly water and sugar, but they do. When people have used them in the kinds of concentrations as a normal puree, the results have been overpowering, not in a good way.

Take alook at the recommended "dosage" on the back label of one of the Amoretti bottles.

 

[Rob2010SS]

The Amoretti Craft "Purees" tend to have a very strong flavor compared normal purees "pound for pound." I have no idea why, since they seem to be mostly water and sugar, but they do. When people have used them in the kinds of concentrations as a normal puree, the results have been overpowering, not in a good way.

Take alook at the recommended "dosage" on the back label of one of the Amoretti bottles.

It's funny you say that. I tried the dosage that Amoretti recommends in our bench trial and it was hardly noticeable. Turned the color a very ugly, muted, pink/orange. We preferred it at the dosage that the brewer had mentioned.

 

[copachono]

putting my small grain of salt here, you want to use a nutrient called Yeast O life, its specially made for hard seltzer, so its the best nutrient on the market for it, the other good option for nutrient should be fermaid O

 

[jerrylotto]

I don't know if I trust any vendor who won't post the ingredients of a food product. Looking over their technical documentation, all see is what it is NOT (not urea or DAP (diammonuim phosphate) which is what I use).

 

[copachono]

As all this organic nutrients the are autolysed yeast with some vitamins and minerals, i got this from a llalemand guy some weeks ago

 

[copachono]

you may not want to use DAP, DAP its an inorganic source of nitrogen, it has some bad things, some are that it pomoves a rapid cell grow and sometimes that its a bad thing since it means temperature raising, and sometimes bad cellular replications on the Cells, so orgenic Nitrogens are quite better, im not so sure bu i can find the note if i search, but i believe this are organic and kosher certificated

 

[copachono]

 

[Rob2010SS]

Random question - a seltzer made with corn sugar and fermented out would be considered gluten free, correct? I think so but not sure...

 

[copachono]

Yeap, it should be, since there are no gluten on the dextrose,

 

[VikeMan]

Random question - a seltzer made with corn sugar and fermented out would be considered gluten free, correct? I think so but not sure...

Yes, but only if the yeast is gluten free. (And no, I'm not kidding.)

 

[jerrylotto]

I use phosphoric acid to adjust pH, and diammonium phosphate is nothing more than the ammonia salt of phosphoric acid. Phosphates help ensure smooth out and speed up fermentation of worts during all three stages, especially those that contain large portions of non-malt adjuncts. I use DAP and urea to kick my starters and don't add any more to the wort.

 

[Rob2010SS]

Yes, but only if the yeast is gluten free. (And no, I'm not kidding.)

Dumb question - short of reaching out to the manufacturer of the yeast, is there anyway to figure that out?

 

[jerrylotto]

(shamelessly quoted) Brewer’s yeast, also called saccharomyces cerevisiae, is not gluten-free unless specified on the product label. Most brewer’s yeast is a byproduct of the beer brewing process and contains gluten from the barley used to make beer. There are some brands of brewer’s yeast created using sugar beets and are gluten-free.

 

[VikeMan]

Dumb question - short of reaching out to the manufacturer of the yeast, is there anyway to figure that out?

Not a dumb question. The only way to know is to ask the manufacturer or have personal knowlege of their process. The people on the Gluten Free Brewing subforum would be able to point you in the right direction.

 

[jerrylotto]

All Danstar, Red Star, Safale, and Saflager yeasts are gluten free. They are also all dry yeast options. For liquid yeast White Labs are gluten free after fermentation (2 ppm), but not in the vial (12 ppm). Unfortunately Wyeast does not meet the requirements for gluten free.

 

[Rob2010SS]

All Danstar, Red Star, Safale, and Saflager yeasts are gluten free. They are also all dry yeast options. For liquid yeast White Labs are gluten free after fermentation (2 ppm), but not in the vial (12 ppm). Unfortunately Wyeast does not meet the requirements for gluten free.

You seem to be a wealth of knowledge here. I assume that if you knew, you would have included it, but do you know if EC1118 falls into the GF category?

 

[jerrylotto]

https://shop.revolutionfermentation.com/products/all-purpose-fermentation-yeast-ec-1118-lalvinclaims GMO and gluten free.

 

[Rob2010SS]

Well, moving along on the seltzer! Kegged it last night and added the fruit to the keg. 20% fruit which equates to 9lbs of fruit puree (3 whole cans) per keg. Added a little bit of meyer lemon extract as well.

The champagne yeast on this, as we experienced at the brewery, is fantastic. Nice dry finish and has that champagne smell! It definitely fermented this down lower than I expected. Time to carbonate. Looking forward to this one!