same brew 2 fermentors one good one darker and awful

[blitz77]

hello,
i am new to the forums and semi new to home brewing (about 6 batches in) and had some questions about bad tasting and smelling beer.

1st bad one we made a few weeks ago (actually brewed 3 different beers that day) 2 turned out fine and one came out with an AWFUL taste and smell. we ruled it to be a cooking error since we were very new to homebrewing at that point and ended up dumping the entire 1/6 barrel because it was un-drinkable

we were hoping that this was a one time mistake and a couple weeks later we did out first all grain beer. we made a gravity fed mash rig with a server tower, 2- 10 gallon igloo coolers and a 1/2 barrel keggle.

everything seemed to work perfectly until we put it in the carboys. we used 2- 5 gallon carboys for fermentation. when we filled the carboys we filled one half way up then filled the other half way then went back and topped them both off with the rest of the wort because we didnt want one to end up more concentrated than the other.

now the problem started here. one carboy was almost twice as dark as the other which was odd but we didnt think to much about. we did primary for a week with airlocks one blew and the other didnt so we put a blowoff on it. after primary was complete we racked them into secondary for another week.

all seemed to go as planned besides the unexplained change of color. we kegged them last night and cranked pressure up to 25 psi to carb them and today we decided to give them a taste test. the lighter one came out as it should and when we tried the darker one we have that same awful taste and smell (awful enough to pour the keg)

the cook was all the same, the carboys both sat right next to each other and stayed right around 68f the only diff between the 2 was we used 2 different packs of yeast (same yeast) just a different pack for each carboy.

my brewtarget app crashed and lost all recipes so cant remember what yeast it was only that it was white labs.

any input on what we may be doing wrong would be greatly appreciated and i am sorry to have my first post be a problem brew but it wont be my last post.

thanks in advance!

 

[JohnSand]

Welcome aboard. My first thought would be infection, but it wouldn't occur instantly in the fermenter. Is it possible that there was some other contamination in your carboy? Where did it come from, how do you clean it? It may be that the carboy is a slightly different color, and the problem developed later.
We've all had failed batches, you'll work it out.

 

[blitz77]

usually when we get done with a primary we take and let the carboy sit in oxyclean overnight to help get off the nastaies then next day we take a carboy brush and scrub whatever nasties are left over, rinse it out and put on shelf until we are going to use again. immediatly prior to using again we sanitize it with starsan and rinse until no more bubbles are coming out.
carboys were exact same but could be possible that one was maybe a little darker than the other but not enough of a difference to make such a drastic change in color.
plus you could also tell the difference in color in the hydrometer flask which we used the same on both.

 

[TimmyWit]

If I'm reading this right, one carboy was darker as soon as you transferred it from the boil kettle, correct? It sounds like you transferred all the trub into one of the carboys. So, all the cold break and spent hops ended up into one of them.

If the final product is darker on a split batch, that would indicate oxidation so that is also something to consider.

How are you transferring wort? What were you brewing?

 

[Sadu]

So you brewed 10 gallons of all-grain wort - and you brewed this in one pot, ie not 2 separate batches.
Then filled 2x 5 gallon carboys, pouring alternately between them for consistency (good idea by the way).
And at this point, before pitching the yeast, you noticed that one was darker than the other?
Assuming both carboys were clean and sanitised etc.

If it was an extract brew then maybe the extract wasn't mixed properly and one carboy got all the extract. But you said it's all-grain. With All-grain it's normal for the first part of the wort to be quite clear, and the last bit to contain all the hops and trub. This might affect colour a bit initially, but the trub/hops also should fall out of suspension while fermenting and the final beer colour should end up exactly the same.

So I'm not sure why the colour was different going into the carboy. Only suggestion is one carboy got more trub than the other. This does not explain why it tasted foul.

The foul taste can be explained other ways though. Usually it's either poor sanitation on the carboy (a speck of crud got stuck inside and harbours wild bacteria) or it could be bad yeast that you pitched into that carboy (infected starter or slurry perhaps). We'd need to know more about how you pitched yeast to comment further here.

 

[blitz77]

i am snapping a couple pics to show my set up and a pic of the beer in glasses, i didnt take a pic when they were in carboys but you can definitely still tell the dif in the glasses. the first time we had this taste was in an extract (belgium blonde) and this was an all grain 10 gallon batch (amber)
yes, we alternated when we were transfering from keggle to carboys to try and keep them exactly the same by filling them both half full and then topping them off.
we tranfered via ball valve and hose from keggle to carboys after we ran the wort cooler inside the keggle.
i do think that we ended up pitching the yeast the next day because we couldnt get it down to temp quick enough. we did not use a starter we poured a pack of white labs in each one after we got them to room temperature.

EDIT: after we got the yeast packets to room temp that is.

 

[TimmyWit]

i do think that we ended up pitching the yeast the next day because we couldnt get it down to temp quick enough. we did not use a starter we poured a pack of white labs in each one after we got them to room temperature.

Any temp control during fermentation?

 

[blitz77]

Here is a pic of setup and how they turned out.

 

[blitz77]

No temp control but temp stayed between 64-70 through primary and secondary.

i am trying to pin point the fould tase but am having a hard time doing so. closest i can come up with is acetaldehyde but not sure if a am right there

 

[S-Met]

Did two dark/off batches come from the same keg/fermenter? Of unsure, you should try and isolate/label each one.

Secondly, have you removed the poppets and thoroughly cleaned the dip-tubes inside and out. Nasties can hide there. A routine soak and rinse of a keg may miss these areas.

 

[TimmyWit]

No temp control but temp stayed between 64-70 through primary and secondary.

I think you have a few things going on here:

- underpitch
- temp control - I'm guessing you measured ambient temp but your ferm temp was likely considerably higher especially the batch that needed the blowoff
- trub in fermenter - this would explain the darker color in the carboy. You probably had double trub in one fermenter and very little in the other. That could also explain the aggressive fermentation if it was the same carboy (lots of nutrients in the trub). More fermentation activity = more heat produced.
- As for the final product being a darker color in the glass, that would seem to indicate oxidation. This could be explained by the excessive amount of polyphenols from all that trub which would make that batch more prone to oxidation.


A few things to try with your next batch:

- Pitch more yeast - If you're not ready for a starter yet, pitch the appropriate amount of packs (there are online calculators to help with this). Also, consider aeration.
- Temp control - A swamp cooler can be a good option until you're ready for ferm chamber
- Let the trub settle out before racking to leave as much behind in the brew kettle as possible

 

[Amadeo38]

usually when we get done with a primary we take and let the carboy sit in oxyclean overnight to help get off the nastaies then next day we take a carboy brush and scrub whatever nasties are left over, rinse it out and put on shelf until we are going to use again. immediatly prior to using again we sanitize it with starsan and rinse until no more bubbles are coming out.

Seems people missed this final detail you mentioned. StarSan is a no-rinse sanitizer and the water source you’re rinsing with is likely full of baddies. Could be the problem. Leave the bubbles. Love the bubbles.

Also, depending on your fermentor type, you don’t want to scrub anything plastic that touches beer on the cold side. Especially if you’re rinsing your StarSan out with tap water.

Lastly, make sure you use the OxyClean “Free” which has no dyes or perfumes. Best would be to use PBW (either homemade or store bought), but at least make sure it’s Oxy Free, if not.

 

[TimmyWit]

Seems people missed this final detail you mentioned. StarSan is a no-rinse sanitizer and the water source you’re rinsing with is likely full of baddies. Could be the problem. Leave the bubbles. Love the bubbles.

Good catch and advice! I missed that but it doesn't explain dark color. This could certainly be part of the problem but I think he has a few things going on here.

 

[Amadeo38]

Good catch and advice! I missed that but it doesn't explain dark color. This could certainly be part of the problem but I think he has a few things going on here.

Very true. Infection alone seems unlikely to change the color. Oxidation is the more likely culprit but poor sanitation surely doesn’t help!

 

[Bobby_M]

The lighter one just looks like there is still some sediment in suspension. That will taste bad. Give it a few days in the cold.

 

[eric19312]

I'd agree the lighter beer looks like it has sediment. If you ferment in clear carboy you will notice that the beer looks quite light colored when it is well mixed with trub but a few hours later you will see clear beer on top of a trub layer.

A few ideas regarding the bad flavor...
Contamination in the keg seems possible, especially if this was same keg that had that blonde in it. @S-Met 's advice on full breakdown, through cleaning, and sanitation is worth considering. Especially if you detected any off flavors in the batch.
Ditto on @Amadeo38 's advice regarding not rinsing out the Star-San. Both for reason he mentioned and for another...Any time tap water gets involved in the brewing process I am going to suspect chlorine. Especially as weather warms municipalities tend to start using chlorine and chloramines more frequently. Even trace amounts of chlorine in water used to rinse equipment can be an issue. So use campden treated water to brew and to make your star-san and don't rinse the star-san out of the fermentors with tap water. 1 tablet treats 20 gallons and is cheap insurance.

 

[TimmyWit]

The lighter one just looks like there is still some sediment in suspension. That will taste bad. Give it a few days in the cold.

It's the dark one that tastes bad

the lighter one came out as it should and when we tried the darker one we have that same awful taste and smell (awful enough to pour the keg)

 

[blitz77]

thank you all for all the replies!

i do have fermometers on all of the carboys and just ordered one of the thermowells as well.
also i have a stirplate and everything else ordered to start doing yeast starters for now on, a inkbird ltc-308 thermostat which i will be using to make a ferment fridge and threw a fermwrap in the cart just for the heck of it.

i have been pretty thorough when cleaning kegs and everything that doesnt get boiled but will not worry about getting the bubbles all out the next time and see what happens.

as for letting trub settle, should i use rack and cane to get the wort out of keggle or just let it sit for an hour or so before draining out through the ball valve? i do have a false bottom in it as well.

the last one (belgium) that turned out bad we let sit in keg for almost 2 weeks before pouring. first week being at about 20-25 psi and then dropped it down to serving pressure. but i am wondering if with this one if i cant get rid of the taste maybe i pour it back in the keggle and throw in say 8# of extra light lme and referment it with a yeast starter this time making sure i thoroughly cleanse and sanitize everything ofcourse.
any feedback on giving that a shot?

thanks so much guys, this has been a big help!
so much so that i have decided to become a supporting member and that is rare!

 

[TimmyWit]

For the trub, you have a few options:

- Let it rest for 20-30 minutes post-chill and rack from the top

- Create a whirlpool, let that rest 20-30 minutes post chill and carefully rack from the valve as to not disturb the cone you just created.

Here's a good video of the process shown by @Jaybird using a tool he designed



For that last batch, if it was me, I would chalk it up to lessons learned rather than hassle with it more. Restarting fermentation could help with something like diacetyl but I don't think that was your problem here. Diacetyl is commonly described as buttered popcorn but that's not how I perceive it so YMMV. If you decide to go ahead with trying to add DME, just boil the DME for 15 minutes and add it to your carboy; no need to boil the entire batch again. But, based on what you have described so far, I wouldn't expect anything positive to come from restarting fermentation.

 

[blitz77]

Ok. Thanks, thats all I needed to hear. If it doesn't take a big turn for the better I will count it as a loss and consider it a lesson learned.

That whirlpool idea seems pretty slick but I notice that all the grain and what not settles to the center which happens to be where my pickup for the valve is.

Bu if that wouldn't work I can do the whirlpool and rack from the top.

I am just thinking that the trub would make it through the false bottom and still get into the fermenter but I'm still new to this and could be wrong

 

[TimmyWit]

Oh yea, the whirlpool may not do you much good with your setup. You might be best to let it settle and rack from the top.

Looks like you have weldless fittings so if you decided to go the whirlpool route, it would be a pretty easy modification.

They also make other hop blocking devices with fine mesh but I think folks get mixed results with those as they may clog especially if you're working with lots of hops.