Amber Ale with flavor gaps??

[beersheba]

My husband and I just finished brewing our 4th batch of beer - an all-grain 5gal american amber ale. We just started brewing this year so we are still getting accustomed to the process, but we had expected that this beer would be our best yet, especially after tweaking so many things that disrupted our previous beers.
When we tasted this beer, it had a strong malt flavor to begin with (and tasted just like what we were hoping for), but then the taste fades away into nothingness (it feels like a 'gap of flavor') and then finishes with either a malty or yeasty-aftertaste (but not a good one).
We don't taste any hops at all, even though quite a bit were added. And it feels like there is something totally off with our yeast or malts. Any help would be appreciated! Recipe is below with some guesses to where we may have gone wrong with the process:

Started with 8gal distilled water. Added 3g baking soda, 14g gypsum, and 2g CaCl2. Water chem goal of CA 110, Mg 18, SO4 275, Na 16, Cl 50, HCO3 70.

7# Maris Otter
2# dark Munich malt
1# flaked wheat
1# Crystal 40L
3oz black malt
Mash was at 153F for 60mins, we do BIAB. We have some concern with the mash efficiency and maintaining a steady temp. we brew over a propane burner and have to keep an eye on thermometer.

.5oz Simcoe @60mins
.33oz Willamette @20mins
.5oz Saaz and .5oz Mt Hood @5mins
.5oz Saaz and .5oz Mt Hood @0mins
No real concern with the boil. We cool to 70F, but it was 100F outside when we brewed so it took longer than usual to cool. Possible oxidation concerns, but we really try not to splash when we cool and rack into carboy, and we don't taste any wet cardboard flavors in our beer.

Hydrated and pitched WLP001 at 70F and fermented between 59F and 65F in our fermentation chamber for 2 weeks. This was our first time using temp controls.
OG was 1.045 (lower than we wanted), FG was 1.010 after 14 days.
Then we kegged and force carbed at 20psi for 2 additional weeks. Served at around 11psi.

We really feel like we covered most bases here, but obviously something went wrong, so please impart your knowledge on me!

 

[huckdavidson]

Time, you ain't friend of mine. Unless you brew beer.

• If it's only been four weeks, give it at least another two weeks cold conditioning. Taste once a week to determine the point at which it tastes good and the flavors start developing, melding and coming together.
• Serve and drink at an appropriate temperature, might have to let it warm up.
• Use gelatin or cold crash to remove excess yeast in suspension.
• The first couple pints from the keg might be yeasty.
• Being a malt focused recipe it will require some time to meld.
• The amount of SO4 in your water profile is high and will add a dry, minerally finish to the beer. This should help balance the malt but will require more time to smooth out. High sulfate is usually an acquired taste.

 

[Miraculix]

What did you do to tackle oxygen ingress? How did you transfer from fermenter to the keg?

 

[beersheba]

Time, you ain't friend of mine. Unless you brew beer.

• If it's only been four weeks, give it at least another two weeks cold conditioning. Taste once a week to determine the point at which it tastes good and the flavors start developing, melding and coming together.
• Serve and drink at an appropriate temperature, might have to let it warm up.
• Use gelatin or cold crash to remove excess yeast in suspension.
• The first couple pints from the keg might be yeasty.
• Being a malt focused recipe it will require some time to meld.
• The amount of SO4 in your water profile is high and will add a dry, minerally finish to the beer. This should help balance the malt but will require more time to smooth out. High sulfate is usually an acquired taste.

Is there a point where it's been 'too long' waiting for flavors to meld? If it doesn't get better in the next few weeks, when can I assume that something's just flat out wrong with the flavor?

 

[beersheba]

What did you do to tackle oxygen ingress? How did you transfer from fermenter to the keg?

It's not something we were fully focused on before kegging, but when we kegged it, we used our auto-siphon and did our best to minimalize splashing. I think if I remember correctly, the end of the auto-siphon tube was submerged in the beer for most of the transfer process

 

[RM-MN]

OG was 1.045 (lower than we wanted)

it had a strong malt flavor to begin with (and tasted just like what we were hoping for), but then the taste fades away into nothingness (it feels like a 'gap of flavor') and then finishes with either a malty or yeasty-aftertaste (but not a good one).

maintaining a steady temp. we brew over a propane burner and have to keep an eye on thermometer.

Little things add up. Since you said you did this batch BIAB, how finely was it milled? If it was coarsely milled it will take longer to gelatinize the malt which then delays the conversion and makes it more difficult to extract the sugars. Since it takes longer you added heat. Unless you were stirring constanly and vigorously, your malt near the bottom of the mash gets much hotter than nearer the top. It may get hot enough to destroy the very enzymes needed for conversion which then leaves your wort more malty, same as mashing at a higher temperature and the less enzyme activity reduces the sugars which lead to a lower OG than planned.

Next batch, try to get the grain milled well. Don't add heat, just insulate the mash tun. If the grain is a little more coarse, mash longer. There is nothing magical about a one hour mash. You mash until you get the conversion.

There also is nothing magical about a 14 day fermentation. Longer is usually better as it lets more trub settle. 2 weeks in the keg may not be enough either. Try your next sample at 3 weeks and see if it improves.

 

[hottpeper13]

With that malt bill and the addition of baking soda(very wrong move) your mash pH was most likely high. When i make one like this with RO water I typically add 2-3 oz of acidulated malt to go the other direction. The calcium for that mash is spot on but for my tastes I'd bring the SO4 : Cl to 60:40 or 70:30.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

Started with 8gal distilled water. Added 3g baking soda, 14g gypsum, and 2g CaCl2. Water chem goal of CA 110, Mg 18, SO4 275, Na 16, Cl 50, HCO3 70.

When you decided to add the 3g of Baking Soda, was that based on a target pH? Or was that added just to boost your Na and HCO3 numbers? In general, acid should be added to lower mash pH, and Bicarbonate added to raise the mash pH. There is no need to add HCO3 just to hit a value in a water profile. With this grain bill and using RO water, I would expect the pH would be in a reasonable range without any pH adjustments. (I see a similar question was asked while I was typing.)

Edit: the Baking Soda addition seems fine. I played with a recipe and BeerSmith predicts 5.25, even with the Baking Soda. I am not used to the adjustments needed when starting with RO water.

Overall it seems like a decent recipe with plenty (too many?) specialty malts. It might be that with all those flavorful malts, you just have too much of the middle layer character malt flavors.

 

[huckdavidson]

Is there a point where it's been 'too long' waiting for flavors to meld?

When off flavors from oxidation take hold.

If it doesn't get better in the next few weeks, when can I assume that something's just flat out wrong with the flavor?

After 2-3 months (8-12 weeks) of warm and/or cold conditioning, sampling once or twice a month, you don't notice an improvement - it's time to move on.

In the meantime brew another beer.

With that malt bill and the addition of baking soda(very wrong move) your mash pH was most likely high. When i make one like this with RO water I typically add 2-3 oz of acidulated malt to go the other direction. The calcium for that mash is spot on but for my tastes I'd bring the SO4 : Cl to 60:40 or 70:30.

Actually the water salt additions bring the mash to a pH of ~5.3, either doing no sparge or splitting the 8 gallons for batch sparge.

Was a sparge conducted or was this a no sparge? The low OG may be due to not sparging.

 

[jdauria]

What was the decision behind 275 ppm Sulfate? That's way out of range for an Amber Ale and is almost at the high end of what you would see if you were brewing an IPA, but you had less than 3 ounces of hops with really only a 1/2 ounce of bittering hops, so does not seem like you were going for a Hoppy Amber even. That much sulfate is going to make the beer super dry, usually if you want a dry beer, you shoot for sulfate to chloride ratio of 2 to 1. a very dry beer, then greater than 2 to 1. You're ratio is 5.5 to 1 If you wanted a beer that accented the malts, sulfate should have been 50 ppm or under and chloride maybe bumped to 75-100 ppm at least. Higher chloride then sulfate makes the beer seem fuller, which accents the malt profile better.

What did you use to determine your water mineral numbers? Highly recommend Bru'n Water spreadsheet. You most likely did not need any baking soda, but 14 grams of gypsum dropped your pH so low you then needed the baking soda to get it to a normal range.

So I brew fairly similar way, no sparge "BIAB" inside a Foundry, using usually around 7-7.5 gallons, depending on grain bill. I never need to add more than 2-3 grams of any water mineral unless I am brewing an IPA (more gypsum) or a NEIPA (more chloride). Made an amber ale earlier this year, 7.1 gallons of distilled water. My water additions were 1.7 grams of gypsum, 2.6 of Calcium Chloride, 2.8 of Epsom salt and 0.5 baking soda to get my pH to a target I wanted of 5.40. My final water profile Ca 50, Mg 10, Na 5, SO4 75, Cl 62 HCO3 12 which is within the range for an amber colored balanced beer.

 

[Miraculix]

275 ppm sulfate is actually pretty standard for anything British. Looking at the ingredients, I'd say it's a British beer!