Sam Calagione on "Beer Geeks"

[Spintab]

You said you had a hard time linking to it, I figured you meant reposting the link elsewhere. No insult meant, I was just asking why you called it a rant.

@Cadarnell, from dictionary.com:

Rant
[rant]   Origin
rant
   /rænt/ Show Spelled[rant] Show IPA
verb (used without object)
1.
to speak or declaim extravagantly or violently; talk in a wild or vehement way; rave: The demagogue ranted for hours.

That doesn't seem to fit his post. I'm no English major and I'm most likely only citing this as a result of my annoyance to the frequent misuse of the term anytime someone that has a professional basis in a field speaks up about something.


Rev.

ve·he·ment adj \ˈvē-ə-mənt\

Definition of VEHEMENT

: marked by forceful energy : powerful <a vehement wind>: as
a : intensely emotional : impassioned, fervid <vehement patriotism>
b (1) : deeply felt <a vehement suspicion> (2) : forcibly expressed <vehement denunciations>
c : bitterly antagonistic <a vehement debate>


Works for me. I'd say it was deeply felt.

 

[cadarnell]

You said you had a hard time linking to it, I figured you meant reposting the link elsewhere. No insult meant, I was just asking why you called it a rant.

@Cadarnell, from dictionary.com:

Rant
[rant] &#8194; Origin
rant
&#8194; &#8194;/rænt/ Show Spelled[rant] Show IPA
verb (used without object)
1.
to speak or declaim extravagantly or violently; talk in a wild or vehement way; rave: The demagogue ranted for hours.

That doesn't seem to fit his post. I'm no English major and I'm most likely only citing this as a result of my annoyance to the frequent misuse of the term anytime someone that has a professional basis in a field speaks up about something.


Rev.

Thanks ... My title could have been better I guess ... The link that I followed off my Facebook page was titled "Sam calagione gives beer snobs an earfull" .... I think that one was meaner than mine.

 

[danorocks17]

I stopped by a local liquor store to pick up some beers and such after work and I noticed a 4 pack of DFH 120, and it was stickered at $29.00. I laughed and quickly grabbed a bomber of Stone Smoked Porter and and some ciders. At check out I told the guy he should go back and check the price, and he's like, "no man, that's the right price it's normally $12 per 12oz bottle, but it wasn't selling so we packed it into a 4 pack"
I'm sure I've had it before and I'm sure that is not the price, am I wrong? So I have to wonder about the hype that the distributor is putting into selling it to this somewhat ghetto liquor store in the suburbs.

Overall, it's a great brewery in my opinion, but no I don't care for all of their beers, but I always look forward to trying them because they're different, even compared to many craft brews.

$10-$12 a bottle for 120 min is indeed accurate.

 

[Danbreeze]

Must have been around the time Sammy Light was released.

Even before then! People were in shock that you would have to pay $9.99 for a six pack of beer.

 

[Spintab]

Even before then! People were in shock that you would have to pay $9.99 for a six pack of beer.

It's funny, growing up in New England around that same time, our go to beers were always Sammy and Long Trail. I didn't even consider anything less an option unless someone else bought it. I kinda always assumed $9.99 for a sixer was typical. Ignorance is truly bliss sometimes.

 

[Brewkowski]

$10-$12 a bottle for 120 min is indeed accurate.

wow. guess i've never had it then, I have a tough time dropping that kind of coin on a single 12oz. I guess that kind of pricing could be part of the reason for the reputation of being "too much hype". I love a good brew as much as the next guy, but that's what you pay for a decent 6 pack. I'm sure it's good, I don't drink Dom Perignone either but probably good for fans of bubbly.

 

[Brulosopher]

I'm currently on my 4th pint Bohonkus Brown Ale. Cost me about $0.32 per pint. Mmm hmm.

 

[Brulosopher]

i'm currently on my 4th pint bohonkus brown ale. Cost me about $0.32 per pint. Mmm hmm.

 

[BrewMU]

The "rant" wasn't Sam knocking drinkers for not liking his beer. It's worth reading it. He's basically annoyed that folks are writing off all sorts of craft beers as crap, possibly as a means to praise other beers. He's basically reiterating 'to each his own' And 'can't we all just get along.'

Overpriced is another funny notion. What you'll pay for a beer is as individual a choice as whether you find a beer delicious or not. If I want something really special, I don't bat an eye at a $6 bomber. If I want a lot of beer for drinking by the river, $15 a cube is also an option. To each his own!

Definitely - like I said, I'm willing to pay $7.50 for the Double Jack, because I think it's way above average beer. If you think Yellow Snow is just as good, it's a bargain at $7. I've never really understood the 'most overrated' category, whether applied to beer or anything else. I don't really know how people 'rate' Yellow Snow. Actually, F/W IS rated highly by a lot of people - I love it, but maybe it is 'overrated', whatever that means. If it were $20 a bomber, it would be overpriced FOR ME - maybe not for you.

 

[bobz32]

DFH is one of my favorite breweries. Then again, I live in MD so they are rather close (maybe making me a bit bias), but even if I don't like one of their experimental beers, I applaud Sam's creativity for trying something different and releasing it to the public. His rant makes sense to me, I saw a lot of bashing of DFH after people saw that it was "popular enough" to get a show on TV.

Then again, I also don't let anyone else's comments influence my tastes. After all, I do see people here saying Belgian beers are awful, and trying to find ways to clone Blue Moon ...

 

[biochemedic]

Hell,I still consider Sam & the gang to still be one of us. Not afraid to push the envelope to come with something new & good. Or old & forgotten goodness.
....Keep on truckin,Sam!!

Yeah, me too...I've always thought of breweries like DFH, Stone, etc. as just really successful large scale homebrewers...only they've started brewing for my home too (to supplement my low pipeline days...)

And FWIW, I probably never would have become a homebrewer or gotten turned on to craft beer if it weren't for 60 min, so I'll always have a soft spot for DFH..

 

[sudsmcgee]

DFH 120 is what sealed the deal on me not wanting to buy any more of their beers. I paid $10 for a 12 oz bottle once and said never again to their beers. So I agree with previous posters that it's the price that drives me away more than anything. I can make a 10 gal batch of IIPA for 60 bucks.

 

[mikeysab]

The guys at DFH are doing what they love, and not many people can say that. I think Sam's rant was totally in line and called for. Who are these people at BA to call ANY brewery overrated? Listen, we all like what we like, and if we don't like it, we don't buy it. I can't think of a brewery on earth that i like EVERY beer in their lineup. Sure, some come closer than others, but I'd never go as far as calling any brewery overrated. I happen to like a couple of DFH's brews, but I'd try any of them. They're bringing recipes out of ancient tombs and brewing them as close as they can to how they were brewed hundreds or thousands of years ago. Who does that? Who even has the balls to try it? We should be thankful that they're letting us try these beers. There are breweries that brew on such a limited scale that there are maybe a couple of hundred people that will even get to TRY their beer. What good is that? Hey, we're all free to drink what we want. For me, if I try something, and I don't like it, I just won't buy it again. Were all free to do the same.

If you read most of the posts in that thread on BA, a lot of people were saying things like "Avery is overrated, but their maharaja is my favorite beer ever", or "Bells two hearted rocks, but as a brewery, they suck". We're not all gonna like every beer in a breweries lineup. To sit there and judge a brewery is really something nobody on BA should be doing. The whole "Most over rated brewery" thread was ridiculous. If those EAC's don't like it, let them get off their keasters and brew their own damn beer.

 

[ClarnoBrewer]

Ultimately, the BA crowd were taking turns trashing many breweries. Sam was just the one to step up and call their bluff. It sounds like most of us (salt of the earth drinkers that we are) are in agreement that "over-rated" is a pretty useless term. It's essentially meaningless in the context of a broad variety of unique beers.

Price point seems the main thing that correlates to over-rated. We correlate price with the breweries opinion of their beer. If they ask a premium for a beer we don't value at that rate, then it's over-rated or over priced.

If the brewery really is asking too much, economics say that they won't be successful. Otherwise, there are enough people that value the beer at that level to keep them in business.

And now I'm rambling. Should've posted before drinking...

 

[ReverseApacheMaster]

If you read most of the posts in that thread on BA, a lot of people were saying things like "Avery is overrated, but their maharaja is my favorite beer ever", or "Bells two hearted rocks, but as a brewery, they suck". We're not all gonna like every beer in a breweries lineup. To sit there and judge a brewery is really something nobody on BA should be doing. The whole "Most over rated brewery" thread was ridiculous. If those EAC's don't like it, let them get off their keasters and brew their own damn beer.

There's a lot of that here, too. I think the most obvious one that gets the, "X brewery sucks but I love the IPA," around here is New Belgium.

 

[Spintab]

There's a lot of that here, too. I think the most obvious one that gets the, "X brewery sucks but I love the IPA," around here is New Belgium.

You have to wonder how many of the people saying breweries suck are local to that brewery or have been there before. I realize it all comes down to the beer they make, but many breweries do amazing things for their community as well. It's hard to say an entire brewery sucks when they've donated tens of thousands of dollars to the Red Cross or similar. I'm sure most of us have, at one point in time, considered going pro and we know each brewery boils down to the individual(s) that founded it. I forgot where I was going with this but you get the point...I think.

 

[unionrdr]

Well said,mikeysab. That's basically what I said earlier. I haven't spoken to that elitist crowd in a while. Now I remember why. Joe B. Nobody acting like he's God's gift to the brewing world with the new PC Revelation of brewing. They really need to sit back & be forced to listen to their ranting BS by a third party reader with a huge sound system. No brew either while listening. Just shut up & listen. Then maybe a small precentage of them will stop & smell what de shovelin...

 

[stamandster]

I also agree with Sam. He's completely right, everyone's tastes differently. I can't say I won't go eat at a restaurant because I don't like a couple of types of meals they offer. That's ridiculous!

 

[Pivzavod]

Here are my 2 cents. I think DFH are overpriced & overhyped brewery for the most part. I give Sam credit for trying new things and I do like a few of their regular beers. What I dont understand why does DFH charge $12+ for 750ml bottle when other breweries charge as much as 1/2 of that for 22oz bomber for similar type of beer. Stone 22 oz bombers can be bought for as low as $4.99.

How come I can buy some Jolly Pumpking offerings in 750ml bottle size for as low as $9. Surely we all know that sour beers take much longer to make yet they cost less. MI is also a lot further from NY than DE. It's not transportation that adds to the cost. Beers that take them 2 months to make cost more than beers that take other breweries 12+ months to make.

 

[motobrewer]

i agree with sam that people tend to trash big breweries simply because they've gotten big.

however, there are some interesting side notes. beernews.org had a good editorial. namely:

Maybe Dogfish Head isn’t exactly monolithic and powerful but if you divide the production of some of the largest producing craft brewers by the smallest breweries and brewpubs it won’t be that far off of the ratio of AB or Miller divided by the largest craft brewers. Size is relative. Just a number. One that you can easily spin to make an argument.

and especially:

Calagione has said on multiple occasions that he has no desire to become “The 60 Minute Brewery.”

Or, in other words…make more high-quality, ‘more affordable’, sessionable beers. [edit: before I get throttled anymore for making that leap...I realize that the tone of his statement is that the brewery wants to keep innovating. But many of these 'innovations' are for big beers in big bottles. Why isn't the brewery putting new innovations in 6-packs?

Sam definitely loves to "dare to dream", as long as it's in $20, 750ml, caged and corked bottles.

not that there's inherently anything wrong with that. i'm not saying he could be forced to push the corn-spit-quinoa-hubiscus-cocacola envelope as well as pushing the drinkable session beer envelope, but I think eventually people will tire of corn-spit-quinoa-hubiscus-cocacola. and when he puts out corn-spit-quinoa-hubiscus-cocacola version #985 for $20 per ounce, people will have every right to call him overrated and overpriced.

 

[mmoran903]

To get this out of the way at the beginning: I love DFH. Burton, 90, 120, and hellhound just "do it" for me.

Why should I (or anyone else, for that matter) care about what someone else thinks with respect to their personal taste?

I get that some people may not be able to justify the price - that's your prerogative as a consumer and ultimately if enough people agree you'll see the price fall.

What I don't get is why someone feels the need to say something is "overrated" when there is no measurable or quantitative means of comparison. At the end of the day, it's BEER. Drink what you like, don't drink what you don't. Simple concept.

I think I'm gonna have a poll and see what the most overrated color or most overrated spring water is.

 

[BryanJ]

Beer Advocate is everything I hate in the beer community. They somehow seemed to turn drinking beer into a very *****ey superiority contest.

 

[sheeshomatic]

Everyone on BA.

It's why I love this site. The ratio of beer geeks to beer snobs is WAY higher. It's all been said already - I'm in the minority that doesn't like DFH's IPAs (they taste like dirty sock water to me), but I recognize the brewery for it's ethic and accomplishments and I know they're serious about their beer - As serious as BMC is about putting out an impressively consistent product. All those 'comic store owners' are just jealous, plain and simple.

 

[dcHokie]

"Worst rant, ever."

 

[MeatyPortion]

I wouldn't call that a rant so much as just putting his detractors in perspective. He's right on.

 

[cadarnell]

Here are my 2 cents. I think DFH are overpriced & overhyped brewery for the most part. I give Sam credit for trying new things and I do like a few of their regular beers. What I dont understand why does DFH charge $12+ for 750ml bottle when other breweries charge as much as 1/2 of that for 22oz bomber for similar type of beer. Stone 22 oz bombers can be bought for as low as $4.99.

How come I can buy some Jolly Pumpking offerings in 750ml bottle size for as low as $9. Surely we all know that sour beers take much longer to make yet they cost less. MI is also a lot further from NY than DE. It's not transportation that adds to the cost. Beers that take them 2 months to make cost more than beers that take other breweries 12+ months to make.

better be careful ... mr calagione might show up here and put you in your place ... haha .. (just kiddin around) ... or is it safe to have an opinion here at HBT ???

 

[Whitewater]

Does anyone want my opinion on this? I thought not...

 

[Whitewater]

Beer Advocate is everything I hate in the beer community. They somehow seemed to turn drinking beer into a very *****ey superiority contest.

:rockin:

 

[corkybstewart]

I'm one of the posters who felt DFH is overrated and here's why. 7 or 8 years ago I read all about this wonderful series of IPA's, the 60, 90 and 120 minute. I tracked down the 90 minute and was blown away by how sweet it was. Then I found the 120 at 10.99 per bottle and bought 3-one to drink fresh, 2 to age. The fresh one was awful, 2 years later I tried the second one and it was just as bad, luckily a friend opened the third one and drank it while I was at work. I tried every other DFH beer I could find tryin to understand what the rest of the world found so amazing about them. I figured I'm getting bad bottles out here so when I was on the East Coast in 2008 I tried them again but there was no improvement.
Now I fully understand that this is a matter of personal taste and not the fault of the brewery-that's how Sam apparently likes his beer to taste and that's cool. I think the internet forum hype machine is the reason so many people think DFH and other breweries are overrated. Friends of mine who used to hype the beer to me later would say things like " yeah, I really never did like 120 minute all that much, but it's still a great beer". This is where the hype comes into play-people read ratings on BA and RateBeer and feel they're supposed to like this beer because so many other people do.
BTW that's also the reason I no longer read reviews of any beer anywhere. I'll taste beer on my own terms and reach y own conclusions.
End of Rant.

 

[cadarnell]

Does anyone want my opinion on this? I thought not...

YES !! ... "WE" all want your opinion ... and if sam calagione was thinking straight he'd re-read that BA feed and gather info/opinions there to help his brewery lose the overrated tag ... I think there was probably a time when he would have done that, but now perhaps he just wants to rest on his laurels and put poeple down for saying what they think ... that's bad biz IMO .. and in the long run it will catch up with him.

 

[dunnright00]

This thread is TL/DR so I'll just say this.

From what I saw of Sam's post, I agree 93.24%.

From what I've seen on the BA forums and from what I've heard about how the Brothers handle the forum, I could really care less about any thread started over there.

 

[dunnright00]

beer advocate is everything i hate in the beer community. They somehow seemed to turn drinking beer into a very *****ey superiority contest.

+1

 

[Wolfhound180]

YES !! ... "WE" all want your opinion ... and if sam calagione was thinking straight he'd re-read that BA feed and gather info/opinions there to help his brewery lose the overrated tag ... I think there was probably a time when he would have done that, but now perhaps he just wants to rest on his laurels and put poeple down for saying what they think ... that's bad biz IMO .. and in the long run it will catch up with him.

I don't think that you read Sam's post what so ever. To post this you obviously wouldn't have to either, because you have preconceived thoughts on the company already.

 

[nukinfuts29]

Personally I hate DFH beer, but Sam is to be respected and admired, and can teach us all a lot. That said I won't even go on BA, not even long enough to read about this post, because they are a bunch of self entitled, self appointed, snobs. Jealousy runs deep, and there's no reason to cut down a brewer or brewery if you don't like their stuff. Jealousy causes that, and if he fired back in a professional manner then good for him.

 

[cadarnell]

I don't think that you read Sam's post what so ever. To post this you obviously wouldn't have to either, because you have preconceived thoughts on the company already.

I read it a few times ... maybe I need to read it again but, I think I get it for the most part ... all that notwithstanding, I don't think he should have slapped the hands of many of the people who put him on the map ...

we have a right to our opinions because we spend several hundred dollars a year to buy the beer ... we put profit in his pocket day in and day out ...

like I said in my original post ...

I don' think he should have commented there ... and if he just had to he should have been thankful for all the info and vowed to do a better job in the future to improve and not be thought of as overrated ...

btw ... I don't remember ever having any of his beer ... they left Indiana just before I started drinking a lot of more expensive craft brews.

 

[SwampassJ]

but the level of self-righteousness in that thread was incredibly tedious.

Welcome to beer advocate, where things are rated on alcohol strength, rarity and if it happens to come in a dead squirrel.

 

[Wolfhound180]

I read it a few times ... maybe I need to read it again but, I think I get it for the most part ... all that notwithstanding, I don't think he should have slapped the hands of many of the people who put him on the map ...

we have a right to our opinions because we spend several hundred dollars a year to buy the beer ... we put profit in his pocket day in and day out ...

like I said in my original post ...

I don' think he should have commented there ... and if he just had to he should have been thankful for all the info and vowed to do a better job in the future to improve and not be thought of as overrated ...

btw ... I don't remember ever having any of his beer ... they left Indiana just before I started drinking a lot of more expensive craft brews.

I'm pretty sure that you are not getting his point. His point is that there is a market for everything. His company is not going to change their mission statement just to accommodate the majority. They are doing what they love, and there are people that enjoy it.

 

[Sippin37]

Welcome to beer advocate, where things are rated on alcohol strength, rarity and if it happens to come in a dead squirrel.

Exactly

 

[HarkinBanks]

I certainly gained a bit more respect for Sam based on his post. I agree with just about all of it. He is a bit of an attention monger but good for craft beer overall without question. Beer geeks just piss me off. Beer is beer, drink what you like, and don't drink what you don't like. Period.

 

[rawlus]

Kinda ironic BA isn't advocating beers in this instance. Sorta just a big pig pile of negativity. Is a silly thread with a bunch of silly ppl in it.