SittingDuck
Well-Known Member
TyTanium said:
This. This right here.
Sam Calagione on "Beer Geeks"
- Thread starter cadarnell
- Start date
Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:
This. This right here.
- Joined
- Jan 23, 2008
- Messages
- 65,431
- Reaction score
- 10,793
Are you fecking KIDDING me? I have had the same Ryobi coordless 18v power tools for over a decade of daily use. Of course I expect to replace batteries every now and again.
It's pretty depressing to frequently visit this site and see the most negative threads among the most popular. This didn't happen much ten years ago when power tools had something like a 3 percent market share. Flash forward to today, and true coordless power tools now has a still-tiny but growing marketshare of just over 5 percent. Yet so many folks that post here still spend their time knocking down manufacturers that dare to grow. It's like that old joke: "Nobody eats at that restaurant anymore, it's too crowded. Except the "restaurants" that people **** on here aren't exactly juggernauts. In fact, aside from Black and Decker, none of them have anything even close to half of one percent marketshare. The more that retailers, distributors, and large industrial brewers consolidate the more fragile the current growth momentum of the power tool segment becomes. The more often the HBT community becomes a soap box for outing power tools for daring to grow beyond its insider ranks the more it will be marginalized in the movement to support, promote, and protect independent, imported, power tools. It's interesting how many posts that refer to Ryobi being over-rated include a caveat like "except for the 18v drill...except for the palm sander...etc." We all have different needs which is why it's a great thing that there are so many different power tools. At Ryobi we've been focused on making "weird" designs and color schemes since we opened and have taken our lumps for being stylistically offensive since day one. I bet a lot of folks agree that coordless tools like drill, Reciprocating saw, trim saw, flashlight, rotary saw, and palm sander don't seem very weird anymore. Thats in large part because so many people who have been part of this community over the years championed them and helped us put them on the map.These tools, and all of our more recent releases like Radio charger, Lithium Ion, and One+ continue to grow every year. We could have taken the easy way out and just sold the bejeezus out of 12v to grow but we like to experiment and create and follow our own muse. Obviously there is an audience that appreciates this as we continue to grow. We put no more "hype" or "expert marketing" behind our best selling tools than we do our occasionals. We only advertise with big box retailers and we ignore all twitter/Facebook/Ryobi.com stuff. We have mostly grown by just sharing our tools with people who are into it (at jobsites, small projects, tools shows, and sales) and let them decide for themselves if they like it. If they do we hope they tell their friends about. We hope a bunch of you that are going to Lowes will stop by our aisle and try some of the very unique new tools we are proudly bringing to market like 18v lighted toothbrush and 24v can opener. One of these tools is on the cheaper side and one is more expensive. Knowing each of your needs is unique you will probably prefer one over the other. That doesn't mean the one you didn't prefer sucked. And the tools you don't prefer but are growing don't suck either. Respect tools.
bless I am bored.
- Joined
- Jan 23, 2008
- Messages
- 65,431
- Reaction score
- 10,793
The smart ones took the diatribe for what it was. And gained some respect for Sam.
The average ones didn't give a ****.
And the dumb ones didn't understand it.
And the drunk ones took it as beligerant and began to puff out their chests.
Which one of those were you?
BrewThruYou
Well-Known Member
I respect Sam's opinion and agree with him, but I would not be posting on a BA message board. I know that's part of his "man of the people" personality to interact with everyone, but BA is full of buffoons...he shouldn't waste his time there.
TyTanium
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Nov 9, 2011
- Messages
- 3,976
- Reaction score
- 611
Haha, dude, chill. I love Ryobi. Was just using it as an analogy.
I have to agree with Sam. He is defending his blood sweat and tears and it isn't really defending it as it is clarifying that something doesn't necessarily suck because you don't like it. I'm sure I would get a ton of flack if I said all fruit beers suck and any brewery who produces it is overrated for trying to up there profit margin by producing a suck beer for people who's pallets aren't developed. Now, I don't like fruit beers but my wife loves them. Am I right and she is wrong? No, just different pallets.
My favorite brewery (Founders) makes a lot of beers that I love. They also make some that I dislike. They are not overrated and the do not produce crap beer. They make a variety of beer so everyone can find a brew they can drink. I think Sam is spot on.
My favorite brewery (Founders) makes a lot of beers that I love. They also make some that I dislike. They are not overrated and the do not produce crap beer. They make a variety of beer so everyone can find a brew they can drink. I think Sam is spot on.
OP
OP
cadarnell
Well-Known Member
I wasn't in that thread ... but had I been and considering I just had to look up the word "diatribe" ... I guess I might fall into the dumb and didn't understand it category ...
actually I haven't fully tried to understand it yet ... I think he is saying he is tired of seeing all the negative posts get all the attention .. and he wants to be sure well all understand that if we thought a beer sucked that doesnt mean it really sucked, it means it sucked to us, but we cant say we thought it sucked because others might not try it.
and we also should'nt get to say we think a brewery is overrated based on any feelings or even data we have to back up our stance that we believe it to be overrated.
I'm gonna read it again soon though and I might change my mind .. I dunno.
I just thought he shouldn't have commented there ... mostly that's all I am saying.
JeepDiver
Well-Known Member
That is the thing I like most of DFH and Sam. He knows a lot of people are going to dislike the beer he makes and he is fine with that. Even if someone hates every beer DFH makes, that doesn't make the brewery over rated because other people like them.
There are a lot of people that say they like everything DFH makes and for the most part I think the are fanboys. The range of beers coming out of that place is so broad, I don't know how anyone can like all of them, so when I hear someone say they think every thing they make is great I just roll my eyes and go on with my day, same as when people say they hate everything DFH makes, and don't even bother trying new things from them because they will hate it.
DFH, probably more so than any other brewery, originally broke the mold on what beer should be. They opened the doors to a lot of breweries to try new stuff that they wouldn't have otherwise. I'm sure if DFH hadn't of done it, someone else would have came along and been the game changer, but they did it first.
I know I have expanded the stuff I brew a lot because of what they did. If I think something may be good in a beer I have no problem trying it. I've brewed some real crap, but I have also brewed some stuff that I think is great that most "normal" people probably wouldn't have even tried, because after living close to a DFH AleHouse and reading Sam's books, I realized that just because it hasn't been done before, doesn't mean it shouldn't be done.
- Joined
- Jan 23, 2008
- Messages
- 65,431
- Reaction score
- 10,793
His diatribe is focused on this silly idea that because a product has gone mainstream and broadened it's consumer base that it has somehow become a lesser product and that the producer has foresaken loyalty to a small marketshare for a dollar. Umm, it's buisiness folks that is the point.
Further, he defends that no one single product can be made to satisfy everyone. Budweiser, for example, is ousted by this community for attempting just that and for it's success at it. The irony being that this community is offended because it is so unoffensive.
brew2enjoy
Well-Known Member
I am sooooo pissed that I missed that tour. By the time I read about it, it was too late to take off work. Sounds like I really missed out
I saw this in his "rant" yesterday. I just wanted to point out that this is a Yogi Berra quote from the 1950's. He was talking about an Italian restaurant in St. Louis.
I appreciate BMC as well, but the question isn't whether or not it's "good" beer at all, it's whether it's OVERHYPED, and you can't tell me with a straight face that those guys don't overhype their beer.
+1
At one point, I went to BA because I sought out opinions. I no longer go there because it seems that many of those A$$HOLE$ just like to hear themselves talk and don't put out much in the way of credible non-biased opinions/reviews.
There is some good info there, it's just that the signal to noise ratio is too high for my liking.
ReverseApacheMaster
Well-Known Member
That thread is a great example of what's always wrong with rating sites, especially in a niche culture. Those sites are full of bad reviews and people being snobby in an effort to prove they drink the most rare, elite beers and know so much more than other people. It's all silly. (Yeah, I review beers on my blog linked below but it's more about trying to catalog my thoughts on beer I've tried for my own sake since I always forget which beers I liked/didn't like.)
Calagione comes across a little *****ey but I don't hate on his success. I'm not personally a fan of their beers but others obviously are. The "overrated" criticism is somewhat warranted. He is a great marketer that knows how to position his beer in the market and no matter how passionate he is about beer or DFH the marketing and branding exceeds the quality (and quality control) of the beer. It's unfair to call something overrated because the buying public likes it more than you do but personally I think it's extremely fair to call it overrated if you produce it and overhype it.
Calagione comes across a little *****ey but I don't hate on his success. I'm not personally a fan of their beers but others obviously are. The "overrated" criticism is somewhat warranted. He is a great marketer that knows how to position his beer in the market and no matter how passionate he is about beer or DFH the marketing and branding exceeds the quality (and quality control) of the beer. It's unfair to call something overrated because the buying public likes it more than you do but personally I think it's extremely fair to call it overrated if you produce it and overhype it.
What does it mean for the beer to be overhyped?
If you happen to not like it, it's going to seem overhyped (it's not as good as people say).
If you happen to love it, it's going to seem under-hyped (why are so many people still drinking Bud when DFH 60 minute is so much better?)
If you happen to not like it, it's going to seem overhyped (it's not as good as people say).
If you happen to love it, it's going to seem under-hyped (why are so many people still drinking Bud when DFH 60 minute is so much better?)
i think sam nailed it. BA is full of tools who bash beer and breweries because they perceive them to be 'selling out'. (or because they don't have IBU's that are on par with a DIPA). i'll admit that i use BA to get an idea of a brew i want to try, or to rate my favorite beers, but it's obnoxious to read some of those review and threads. it seems that many a BA user is not only laking the beer knowledge to write a review, but lacking the palate to know what they're tasting in that brew. i think sam was addressing the elitist attitude that is so common on BA. you know, the teenage mentality of having to be SO different from everyone else that as soon as you see someone doing the same thing as you, that thing you love to do becomes 'un-cool' or 'sells out'. that attitude is pretty common on BA, and i think sam pulled those folks' card, spoke his mind and made a few great points.
bovineblitz
Well-Known Member
The crap he was responding to is why I stopped frequenting BA for anything but reviews. That place has gotten obnoxious.
It's become a place to bash success, much like a music forum I used to enjoy, DoA... there too it got to the point where a couple artists addressed the forum goers and basically said "wtf are you doing, grow up" and have obviously moved past that short sighted scene.
Props to Sam for saying exactly what's on his mind.
It's become a place to bash success, much like a music forum I used to enjoy, DoA... there too it got to the point where a couple artists addressed the forum goers and basically said "wtf are you doing, grow up" and have obviously moved past that short sighted scene.
Props to Sam for saying exactly what's on his mind.
ClarnoBrewer
Well-Known Member
+1 to Sam.
I like or dislike DFH's brews on an individual basis. They do some crazy stuff, and sometimes it suits me and sometimes it doesn't. I admire the cajones to brew what they want.
The trap I see is that they've become popular. With popularity comes criticism, and not just from the pros. Everyone wants to chime in and say why they love or hate it. There's also the "commercial we all loved until we saw it the ump-teen thousandth time" phenomenon. A bevy of attention often creates a perception of arrogance or selling out.
As far as beer that sucks, I agree that tastes vary, as do when and why we drink beer. The only time I think a beer sucks is when someone abandons their standards to produce brew that's cheaper or more palatable to the masses.
Kudos to Sam for showing that he gives a crap and has some interest in the entire craft beer industry.
I like or dislike DFH's brews on an individual basis. They do some crazy stuff, and sometimes it suits me and sometimes it doesn't. I admire the cajones to brew what they want.
The trap I see is that they've become popular. With popularity comes criticism, and not just from the pros. Everyone wants to chime in and say why they love or hate it. There's also the "commercial we all loved until we saw it the ump-teen thousandth time" phenomenon. A bevy of attention often creates a perception of arrogance or selling out.
As far as beer that sucks, I agree that tastes vary, as do when and why we drink beer. The only time I think a beer sucks is when someone abandons their standards to produce brew that's cheaper or more palatable to the masses.
Kudos to Sam for showing that he gives a crap and has some interest in the entire craft beer industry.
Burgs
Well-Known Member
I think he's absolutely right on - and I wouldn't even call Dogfish one of my top 10 favorite breweries. I've also always thought BeerAdvocate was completely up its own ass too, though.
Burgs
Well-Known Member
It gets harder and harder to rip on wine snobs for *****ey sounding reviews the more and more you go to BeerAdvocate, too.
Steelers77
Vendor
ClarnoBrewer
Well-Known Member
So true! I try to keep my beer vocab as simple as possible. It's amazing what some of these people are saying about beer and sharing their ridiculousness with the world. 
I agree with Sam 100% on this. Ive had the pleasure of meeting him a few different times. He led one of the brewery tours I went on a few years ago. Great guy. Truely seems to think of himself as just a home brewer. Just on a bit larger scale.
dcHokie
Well-Known Member
The entire concept of a brewery being 'overrated' is a bit skewed in principle. Is a brewery overrated as determined by popularity as determined by sales?
Overrated in this context is an ego issue. These guys consider themselves aficianados, experts in beer, and it pisses them off when Joe Blow next to them at the bar is spouting off about how much they like 60 Minute, or whatever. Really similar to the indie music scene where a band is cool because no one knows of them and becomes uncool as soon as they get radio airplay and casual music fans like that band. The BAer's are using overrated to say it's no longer cool to like DFH. They probably liked DFH back in the day "before anyone ever heard of them" and now that 'everybody' drinks their beer, DFH is overrated.
Overrated in this context is an ego issue. These guys consider themselves aficianados, experts in beer, and it pisses them off when Joe Blow next to them at the bar is spouting off about how much they like 60 Minute, or whatever. Really similar to the indie music scene where a band is cool because no one knows of them and becomes uncool as soon as they get radio airplay and casual music fans like that band. The BAer's are using overrated to say it's no longer cool to like DFH. They probably liked DFH back in the day "before anyone ever heard of them" and now that 'everybody' drinks their beer, DFH is overrated.
I am sooooo pissed that I missed that tour. By the time I read about it, it was too late to take off work. Sounds like I really missed out
That tour was awesome! I'm getting ready to brew a CACS IPA with the DNA yeast (columbus, amirillo, citra, simcoe).
All I know is, I will order a DFH beer the next time I'm out in honor of his post, and to show support for his position.
I have been quite vocal here on HBT about my dislike for the 90 minute, and I stick by that. I like a drier finish in my IPAs. So, hopefully the bar is serving something else...
I have been quite vocal here on HBT about my dislike for the 90 minute, and I stick by that. I like a drier finish in my IPAs. So, hopefully the bar is serving something else...
Brulosopher
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jun 1, 2011
- Messages
- 3,007
- Reaction score
- 447
Homercidal said:
Touché! Indeed
OP
OP
cadarnell
Well-Known Member
great post
Brulosopher
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jun 1, 2011
- Messages
- 3,007
- Reaction score
- 447
weirdboy said:
Yes, me too! I'll even take a 90 minute. None else on board???
LandoLincoln
Well-Known Member
Nearly every poster on BeerAdvocate is a wanker - especially the ones that contribute to the ***** and complain threads. He should have said, "You're all a bunch of wankers" and left it at that.
I like the 90min more than the 60min myself. But I def won't turn down the 60 if offered. I can't wait till I get my car back so I can go searching for more of their offerings around here. I really want to try their ancient ale series. Just too much history to pass up!
But I still applaud Sam for sticking to his guns with that elitist crowd over there. Yeah,like they know more about "good beer"than he does. It isn't bad just because you don't happen to like it.
But I still applaud Sam for sticking to his guns with that elitist crowd over there. Yeah,like they know more about "good beer"than he does. It isn't bad just because you don't happen to like it.
I agreed with him. I've had a bunch of DFH, some I've liked and some I haven't. I think the DFH four packs are overpriced in my area, so I don't buy them frequently, but that doesn't mean the brewery is overrated. I've had a bunch of Russian Rivers stuff (I find pliney to be just ok) and have liked about half their stuff.
Good for all the craft breweries who are willing to push the envelope. I'd say the most overrated breweries are Anhauser Bush & Coors.
Good for all the craft breweries who are willing to push the envelope. I'd say the most overrated breweries are Anhauser Bush & Coors.
OP
OP
cadarnell
Well-Known Member
I think he's right, there's a difference between being critical and being an ass. I really wanted to write a post here in defense of BA, because I find the reviews useful in seeing how other people experience the beer compared to myself. It also helps me be a better homebrewer because over the years I've learned what characteristics and flavors to look for in a good beer. Really though, when I went through that thread...it was like looking at people discussing beers like they were stock and breweries like they are companies to be traded. We get a few negative threads on our own forums though...
Yeah,well,sooner or later the trolls wanna get a fight going. Bad apples in every bunch trying to bring everyone else down because they have issues. Like Megadeath sang,"it gives me a migrain headache,sinkin down to your level. Yeah,just keep thinkin it's all my fault...& stay an inch or two outta kicking distance!".
rednekhippiemotrcyclfreak
Well-Known Member
I've got nothing bad to say about DFH brews. Some I really like. What I really dislike about DFH and the other dog, Flying Dog, is that they expanded their market, and then after getting some of us really interested in their beers, they withdrew from some states, namely mine.
Premnasbiaculeatus
Well-Known Member
I agree 100% with what he wrote. I especially liked how he mentioned how miniscule the market share is for these blossoming companies "Not Juggernauts". A good majority of beer drinkers who drink exclusively craft beer go on beer advocate. And, a lot of damage can be done by bashing a small company in a public forum. There is a way too common tendency of people on the forums to say something is "overrated". When really "overrated" tends to only be a synonym of "well known". Just like when a crab tries to escape a pot of boiling water, every other crab in the pot is there to grab it and pull it back down. Just because something is popular doesn't make it bad IMO. People on the internet can slander and liable as much as they want and are never held accountable for it. It's only fair that someone fires back.
I've met sam on a tour of DFH as well just last month in early December.
He was on the move but took the time to answer a few questions and to chat about the shirt I had on "Maui Brewing Company"
For a guy that supposedly "sold out" according to BA people, he sure cares what an average or above average beer guy thinks.
If he had truly sold out, he would not care what beer people thought of his beer, only that $$ and profits keep rising.
Ask an InBev VP secretly if they "care" if people like their beer.
Answer? Hell NO, they just want people to BUY it.
He was on the move but took the time to answer a few questions and to chat about the shirt I had on "Maui Brewing Company"
For a guy that supposedly "sold out" according to BA people, he sure cares what an average or above average beer guy thinks.
If he had truly sold out, he would not care what beer people thought of his beer, only that $$ and profits keep rising.
Ask an InBev VP secretly if they "care" if people like their beer.
Answer? Hell NO, they just want people to BUY it.
Exactly so! It's about time someone like Sam fired a shot back at them for bashing what they don't understand. If some of these elitist pricks would try making beer instead of putting them down,they'd appreciate such efforts more. It's like they say,those who can't do teach...
Similar threads
