umm, weren't they bought out by InBev?
Sam Calagione on "Beer Geeks"
- Thread starter cadarnell
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umm, weren't they bought out by InBev?
neko
Well-Known Member
That thread is hilarious. I skimmed some of it but it seemed to go like this:
BA posters: DFH and others suck for no particular reason.
Sam: Sorry you hate us, but we are comparatively tiny and working hard.
BA posters: ZOMG!!! It's really Sam himself. Can I bend over backwards and blow you? You guys are the best!
BA posters: DFH and others suck for no particular reason.
Sam: Sorry you hate us, but we are comparatively tiny and working hard.
BA posters: ZOMG!!! It's really Sam himself. Can I bend over backwards and blow you? You guys are the best!
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cadarnell
Well-Known Member
haha ... it did turn into a bow down fest after he commented ..
a lot of those posters did give reasons for calling a brewery overrated though ... most of it was price/value related ... I think that's a point that is being missed in all this ...
SittingDuck
Well-Known Member
No, it's not being missed. What you seem to be missing is that saying a brewery is overrated us an objective statement based on a subjective issue. If you don't think DFH or Stone or Founders are worth the price, ok, don't buy them. But you can't say, objectively, that they aren't worth the price because lots of people think they are and buy them.
If I hate a beer, I will be unhappy if I paid a dollar. If its the best beer I've ever had, I might be happy at twice the price. Neither reflects on the brewery, but only on my subjective taste.
If I hate a beer, I will be unhappy if I paid a dollar. If its the best beer I've ever had, I might be happy at twice the price. Neither reflects on the brewery, but only on my subjective taste.
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cadarnell
Well-Known Member
new belgium is overrated. their beers aren't worth the price.
do I have to add an IMO, or an "I think" for people to know I am answering based on my own taste buds and bank account?
the OP of that thread ask what people thought .. we all know when someone said a brewery sucked, it was from their own perspective ... and subject to what their pallat and wallet told them.
that's all besides the point ... he clearly skipped over the whole price/value argument many made in that thread. That's what I was talking about.
He just went on to tell us all that we really shouldn't talk about such things, because it might hurt a brewery that is trying to grow. Well, to that I say ... if a brewery really wants to grow, they need to listen when they are being called overrated ... they need to listen close and take notes.
there was information in that thread that people in my industry pay good money to obtain. He was getting it for free.
He looked petty .... In My Opinion (in case anyone thought I was being too objective with that last statement)
SittingDuck
Well-Known Member
The problem is that you and I have a fundamental difference of opinion on semantics. You see that brewery is overated or that brewery sucks as equivalent to I don't like that one beer I tried, I see it as being a whiney ******.
More different is our opinion on what Sam could have learned. Overrated is not useful criticism, unless he should learn to diminish public opinion of his brewery. Maybe he should beat puppies on the website.
Equally, I am unhappy that your beer costs so much is useful information if your beer isn't selling and you want to know why. But DFH and New Belgium and Stone aren't sitting on tons of unsold product. Why would I listen to advice to lower my price when I am moving all my product at a higher price?
More different is our opinion on what Sam could have learned. Overrated is not useful criticism, unless he should learn to diminish public opinion of his brewery. Maybe he should beat puppies on the website.
Equally, I am unhappy that your beer costs so much is useful information if your beer isn't selling and you want to know why. But DFH and New Belgium and Stone aren't sitting on tons of unsold product. Why would I listen to advice to lower my price when I am moving all my product at a higher price?
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cadarnell
Well-Known Member
SittingDuck
Well-Known Member
Yeah, dude, not mad at ya. Just different points of view. And I don't like New Belgium much either. 
RogueGoose85
Well-Known Member
Zak said:
You clearly missed the point. I won't waste my time explaining it to you
LouisvilleBrews
Well-Known Member
SittingDuck said:
thank you.
MachineShopBrewing
Well-Known Member
Someone else may have already had this take, as I didn't read EVERY page of this thread.
I liked what Sam said and how he approached it. That said, I can see how some people might think a brewery is overrated. I think there is a large segment of the "beer scene" who tend to over-hype beers from particular breweries. I think DFH can fall into that category on occasion. Yes, taste is subjective, but I think sometimes the hype becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. I have seen many times were a beer was just OK and people were raving about it just because they know it is super rare, or something of the like.
What I am trying to say is that there are many people who will drink a Pliny for the first time and declare it the best beer they have ever had because they have already been conditioned by the hype. There may be a similar quality beer available in their local market for a lower price that they will never put on that pedestal because it is not "Pliny". Not to bang on Pliny, just using that as an example.
What you are seeing on that thread is two things, those who just want to think they have the best palette and want to complain and those who actually taste the beer regardless of the hype and evaluate it for themselves. That is where the division is. And as for everyone shutting up after Sam chimed in, that is easy to explain. Most people involved in the "beer scene" are just sycophants regardless of whether they like the beer or not.
I liked what Sam said and how he approached it. That said, I can see how some people might think a brewery is overrated. I think there is a large segment of the "beer scene" who tend to over-hype beers from particular breweries. I think DFH can fall into that category on occasion. Yes, taste is subjective, but I think sometimes the hype becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. I have seen many times were a beer was just OK and people were raving about it just because they know it is super rare, or something of the like.
What I am trying to say is that there are many people who will drink a Pliny for the first time and declare it the best beer they have ever had because they have already been conditioned by the hype. There may be a similar quality beer available in their local market for a lower price that they will never put on that pedestal because it is not "Pliny". Not to bang on Pliny, just using that as an example.
What you are seeing on that thread is two things, those who just want to think they have the best palette and want to complain and those who actually taste the beer regardless of the hype and evaluate it for themselves. That is where the division is. And as for everyone shutting up after Sam chimed in, that is easy to explain. Most people involved in the "beer scene" are just sycophants regardless of whether they like the beer or not.
Pretty unsubstantiated claim that it's the most overrated. I wonder if he polled that claim before hand?
Seriously though, it's certainly got some pub from being on Discovery Channel and even before then was growing successfully. I don't know if it's "fame" is bringing it undue praise though. Among craft brews it's got big brand recognition but is it winning awards or earning more fans just because of it's name?? Doubt it.
I think Sam was probably just having a bad day and some beer snob caught him at the wrong time.
Seriously though, it's certainly got some pub from being on Discovery Channel and even before then was growing successfully. I don't know if it's "fame" is bringing it undue praise though. Among craft brews it's got big brand recognition but is it winning awards or earning more fans just because of it's name?? Doubt it.
I think Sam was probably just having a bad day and some beer snob caught him at the wrong time.
I actually stopped reading the comments when somebody started dumping on Cigar City. I honestly have never had a bad beer from them. But it goes to show you that everybody tastes beers differently. I used to think DFH 90 min was one of the best IPA's I'd ever had. Then one night I ordered a CCB Jai Ali IPA while my wife drank a 90 min. I couldn't believe the difference. Jai Ali all the way. But my wife still swears by Dogfish Head... and she knows her beers.
Also FWIW, the beer snob scene hosts some of the biggest hipster *****ebags around. It doesn't surprise me that DFH would come up as "overrated" simply because a lot of people know about it now and drink it. I guess Sam has "sold out" because he's expanded his company on a national level and did a TV show. Thats sooooo lame
^this
at least in my area. when they're not busy drinking Pabst Blue ribbon, any spots where you can get a descent beer are usually occupied by hipsters pretending they're accomplished beer aficianados
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cadarnell
Well-Known Member
i think all the overrated claims were substantiated for most of the folks in that thread ... the proof was in each ones personal beer drinking experiences ... and that's really all the OP was asking for in the way of proof .. the thread was fine IMO
you are probably right about him having a bad day ... but you know, maybe he could show up on a good day once in a while, and thank people for giving him profit
.. maybe he does ...I don't really ever go to the forum on that site ... I just use it for the reviews.
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cadarnell
Well-Known Member
haha ... now jim koch has chimed in ... these guys take this online BSing seriously ??? .. maybe I should too ... it just seems pretty silly and even a little petty to me for these guys to get involved in these online discussions .... here's the link
Jim Koch Of Boston Beer On Being “Overrated” | Beer Street Journal
Jim Koch Of Boston Beer On Being “Overrated” | Beer Street Journal
Homebrewtastic
Well-Known Member
cadarnell said:
You can't blame people who have worked that hard to do what they've accomplished for getting pissed off when people put crap like that out.
People who say DFH is too over-rated really mean "I used to drink 120 all the time but now that Sam C was on TV I think it sucks and isn't as cool because Pliny is harder to find."
You can't blame people from defending their product from baseless criticism.
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cadarnell
Well-Known Member
... I'd be pissed too if people were writing things about me that weren't true ... but depending on just who the people were, and how much damage their statements could do to me, I might not even give them the satisfaction of even knowing that I read it ...
maybe i am underestimating the power of a BA thread ... i just thought it was a bunch of guys talkiing about beer and shooting their mouths off a little ... and probably even doing it while buzzed or flat out drunk ... I guess I could be wrong ... wouldn't be the first time for sure .. haha
SittingDuck
Well-Known Member
BA is a popular site, especially for craft drinkers. More importantly, its a site where many new craft drinkers end up when looking for info. If new craft drinkers to to BA, see that thread, and are told how terrible these overrated breweries are, they may choose not to drink them (whether or not they might personally like them.). A popular site badmouthing a company to its core customer base can be pretty harmful.
When I read that stuff on BA,I instantly think of hormone driven high school S.O.B. (Standard Operational Bull Shizz)...
urbanmyth
Well-Known Member
I was confused by your addition of the words "Said In Jest" after calling Goose Island a sell out, which indicates you were joking that they actually hadn't when in fact they did
MachineShopBrewing
Well-Known Member
Spot on sir.
I actually stopped hanging out with a group of "friends" and closed my twitter account because of this. The "beer scene" in the MPLS/STP area is full of ********* sycophants. There are so many "beer blogs" and podcasts that *****ebags create just to make themselves feel more important and to try to get some kind of special access to suck at the teat of their favorite brewery.
Homebrewtastic
Well-Known Member
But what's the point of drinking cool beers if there's no one around to tell you how awesome you are for drinking it?
philly224
Well-Known Member
I think the thread is gone because I can't find it either and I have an account. Wish I could see what he said. I don't have any problem with him sticking up for his brewery though. They make some interesting beers that no one else attempts. 60 minute and 90 minute are great IPAs as well.
BA's site took a massive dump last year. To the point they had to buy new servers, setup new software, etc. They were not able to save any of their earlier threads. Anything on that site now, is a little under a year old. There is no conspiracy, just "Damn you technology".
landshark
HMFIC
I clicked the link, it just went to Beer Advocates forums page. I looked around a little bit trying to find it.
BUT... Any forum with a thread dedicated bragging about being a beer snob and people outright dissing any beer they don't find to taste, even great beers. Sam can tell them to go drive splinters under their toenails in hell for all I care anymore. Sam is like a god among men.
BUT... Any forum with a thread dedicated bragging about being a beer snob and people outright dissing any beer they don't find to taste, even great beers. Sam can tell them to go drive splinters under their toenails in hell for all I care anymore. Sam is like a god among men.
Xpertskir
Well-Known Member
Here is the rant...
"It’s pretty depressing to frequently visit this site and see the most negative threads among the most popular. This didn’t happen much ten years ago when craft beer had something like a 3 percent market share. Flash forward to today, and true indie craft beer now has a still-tiny but growing marketshare of just over 5 percent. Yet so many folks that post here still spend their time knocking down breweries that dare to grow. It’s like that old joke: “Nobody eats at that restaurant anymore, it’s too crowded.” Except the “restaurants” that people **** on here aren’t exactly juggernauts. In fact, aside from Boston Beer, none of them have anything even close to half of one percent marketshare. The more that retailers, distributors, and large industrial brewers consolidate the more fragile the current growth momentum of the craft segment becomes. The more often the Beer Advocate community becomes a soap box for outing breweries for daring to grow beyond its insider ranks the more it will be marginalized in the movement to support, promote, and protect independent ,American craft breweries.
It’s interesting how many posts that refer to Dogfish being over-rated include a caveat like “except for Palo…except for Immort…etc.” We all have different palettes which is why it’s a great thing that there are so many different beers. At Dogfish we’ve been focused on making “weird” beers since we opened and have taken our lumps for being stylistically indifferent since day one. I bet a lot of folks agree that beers like Punkin Ale (since 1995) , Immort Ale (wood aged smoked beer) since 1995, Chicory Stout (coffee stout) since 1995 , Raison D’être (Belgian brown) since 1996, , Indian Brown Ale (dark IPA) since 1997, and 90 Minute (DIPA) since 2000 don’t seem very weird anymore. That’s in large part because so many people who have been part of this community over the years championed them and helped us put them on the map.These beers, and all of our more recent releases like Palo Santo, Burton Baton, Bitches Brew continue to grow every year. We could have taken the easy way out and just sold the bejeezus out of 60 Minute to grow but we like to experiment and create and follow our own muse. Obviously there is an audience that appreciates this as we continue to grow. We put no more “hype” or “expert marketing” behind our best selling beers than we do our occasionals. We only advertise in a few beer magazines and my wife Mariah oversees all of our twitter/Facebook/dogfish.com stuff. We have mostly grown by just sharing our beer with people who are into it (at our pub, great beer bars, beer dinners, and fests) and let them decide for themselves if they like it. If they do we hope they tell their friends about. We hope a bunch of you that are going to EBF will stop by our booth and try some of the very unique new beers we are proudly bringing to market like Tweason’ale (a champagne-esque, gluten-free beer fermented with buckwheat honey and strawberries) and Noble Rot (a sort of saison brewed with Botrytis-infected Viognier Grape must). One of these beers is on the sweeter side and one is more sour. Knowing each of your palettes is unique you will probably prefer one over the other. That doesn’t mean the one you didn’t prefer sucked. And the breweries you don’t prefer but are growing don’t suck either. Respect Beer. The below was my favorite post thus far.
This thread is hilarious. Seriously, Bells, Founders, FFF, Surly, RR, DFH, Bruery, Avery, Cigar City, Mikkeller are all overrated? Since I’m from Ohio, I’ll pile on and add Great Lakes, Hoppin Frog, and Brew Kettle to the list. Your welcome.
Hopefully soon we will have every craft brewery in the US on the list."
"It’s pretty depressing to frequently visit this site and see the most negative threads among the most popular. This didn’t happen much ten years ago when craft beer had something like a 3 percent market share. Flash forward to today, and true indie craft beer now has a still-tiny but growing marketshare of just over 5 percent. Yet so many folks that post here still spend their time knocking down breweries that dare to grow. It’s like that old joke: “Nobody eats at that restaurant anymore, it’s too crowded.” Except the “restaurants” that people **** on here aren’t exactly juggernauts. In fact, aside from Boston Beer, none of them have anything even close to half of one percent marketshare. The more that retailers, distributors, and large industrial brewers consolidate the more fragile the current growth momentum of the craft segment becomes. The more often the Beer Advocate community becomes a soap box for outing breweries for daring to grow beyond its insider ranks the more it will be marginalized in the movement to support, promote, and protect independent ,American craft breweries.
It’s interesting how many posts that refer to Dogfish being over-rated include a caveat like “except for Palo…except for Immort…etc.” We all have different palettes which is why it’s a great thing that there are so many different beers. At Dogfish we’ve been focused on making “weird” beers since we opened and have taken our lumps for being stylistically indifferent since day one. I bet a lot of folks agree that beers like Punkin Ale (since 1995) , Immort Ale (wood aged smoked beer) since 1995, Chicory Stout (coffee stout) since 1995 , Raison D’être (Belgian brown) since 1996, , Indian Brown Ale (dark IPA) since 1997, and 90 Minute (DIPA) since 2000 don’t seem very weird anymore. That’s in large part because so many people who have been part of this community over the years championed them and helped us put them on the map.These beers, and all of our more recent releases like Palo Santo, Burton Baton, Bitches Brew continue to grow every year. We could have taken the easy way out and just sold the bejeezus out of 60 Minute to grow but we like to experiment and create and follow our own muse. Obviously there is an audience that appreciates this as we continue to grow. We put no more “hype” or “expert marketing” behind our best selling beers than we do our occasionals. We only advertise in a few beer magazines and my wife Mariah oversees all of our twitter/Facebook/dogfish.com stuff. We have mostly grown by just sharing our beer with people who are into it (at our pub, great beer bars, beer dinners, and fests) and let them decide for themselves if they like it. If they do we hope they tell their friends about. We hope a bunch of you that are going to EBF will stop by our booth and try some of the very unique new beers we are proudly bringing to market like Tweason’ale (a champagne-esque, gluten-free beer fermented with buckwheat honey and strawberries) and Noble Rot (a sort of saison brewed with Botrytis-infected Viognier Grape must). One of these beers is on the sweeter side and one is more sour. Knowing each of your palettes is unique you will probably prefer one over the other. That doesn’t mean the one you didn’t prefer sucked. And the breweries you don’t prefer but are growing don’t suck either. Respect Beer. The below was my favorite post thus far.
This thread is hilarious. Seriously, Bells, Founders, FFF, Surly, RR, DFH, Bruery, Avery, Cigar City, Mikkeller are all overrated? Since I’m from Ohio, I’ll pile on and add Great Lakes, Hoppin Frog, and Brew Kettle to the list. Your welcome.
Hopefully soon we will have every craft brewery in the US on the list."
Xpertskir
Well-Known Member
He should never have even justified these people with these words...
Hes clearly an ego maniac that cares what some trogladyte living in his mothers basement thinks about his beers. He should just sit back and count the money he makes from people who apparently like his beers..not me, BTW.
Hes clearly an ego maniac that cares what some trogladyte living in his mothers basement thinks about his beers. He should just sit back and count the money he makes from people who apparently like his beers..not me, BTW.
scottland
Well-Known Member
No, he was just defending his brand on a very high profile site. As said before in this thread, lots of new craft beer-drinkers go to beeradvocate looking for 'advice'.
bchurch
Well-Known Member
Right on, that company is his baby, I would do the same in his position. I don't frequent the beer advocate website just for the reasons he's describing.
scottland
Well-Known Member
Ditto, I try to distance my self from it as much as possible.
I think the biggest reason he had to defend his brewery and my pet peeve is that people are missing the whole point of what Dogfish Head is about. It's about making something different and pushing boundaries. If you don't like what they do, that's fine, but just because they push being creative and being different doesn't mean their beer sucks if it doesn't suit ones palate. He was also defending more than his own company with his statements. Do I think Sam Adams sucks because I don't like most of their beers? Of course not. I just realize that some of their beers arent for me. It doesn't make them overrated or mean they make bad beer.
patthebrewer
Well-Known Member
- Joined
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Yes I agree with him...he's obviously passionate about beer (like all of us), he's stuck his neck out over and over to grow his business, and been sucessful. Lately it seems that some people believe that if you suceed you've some how sold out, or aren't interested in your product anymore. I submitt that he has suceeded because he does give a sh*t about his customers. Personally I think the guy has shown that he has B*lls, and I like the creative inventive brews they constantly bring to the market place. I think most of us here understand him better because we brew.
CityOChampBrew
Well-Known Member
To me BA is *****ebaggery at it's best and I applaud Sam for even giving them the time of day by posting what he did
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