Sam Adams Utopias clone - Calling all big beer experts! Paulthenurse and yeager1977

[JonAllenNH]

Thanks Jon, I'd asked around the LHBS and a few other folks I knew and the general consensus was that it was impossible to overpitch, so I went for the gold. Whoops! I've done nothing higher than 9% ABV previous to this.

ten: I added yeast nutrient (wyeast) with a wort addition about 4 hours ago. It's been back in gear since. The next planned additions are; wort/brown sugar, maple syrup, wort/brown sugar, maple syrup, EC-1118 champagne yeast, Sam Adams Tetravis (750ml) and then secondary with soaked oak.

 

[thatjonguy]

Thanks Jon, I'd asked around the LHBS and a few other folks I knew and the general consensus was that it was impossible to overpitch, so I went for the gold. Whoops! I've done nothing higher than 9% ABV previous to this.

ten: I added yeast nutrient (wyeast) with a wort addition about 4 hours ago. It's been back in gear since. The next planned additions are; wort/brown sugar, maple syrup, wort/brown sugar, maple syrup, EC-1118 champagne yeast, Sam Adams Tetravis (750ml) and then secondary with soaked oak.

It is very hard to over pitch but possible.

I tried to find a threshold guideline but came up empty in a quick search. I can dig through a few technical brewing textbooks and hit up a friend at Troegs if you really would like to know.

 

[JonAllenNH]

Don't stress yourself over it, but I'd certainly be curious to know.

 

[JonAllenNH]

So, sounds like I have a possible concern of off flavors due to the amount of yeast. So should I speed up the additions so I don't delay the primary fermentation so I can get it off as much of the yeast as possible as fast as possible, or just play it out?

 

[ten80]

I would not be surprised if the off-flavors will settle out when you transfer to secondary as your beer seems too young to be suffering from much yeast autolysis and oxidation.

That said, don't go to secondary too soon or mess with it if it is still chugging along! A stuck ferment might be worse than some subtle off-flavors.

 

[JonAllenNH]

don't go to secondary too soon or mess with it if it is still chugging along!

I think you misunderstood what I meant, Christophe. I have multiple stages of additions planned, as I was expecting fermentation to take about 3-4 weeks. Instead of the smaller additions, should I make a few larger additions instead to condense that down so once it's done and at/near FG I can rack it onto the oak?

 

[JonAllenNH]

Also, just as an update for all of those watching this thread. I'm not sure what caused that crazy fast fermentation in the first 32 hours or so, but it seems to have slowed down now and it's still active. The first 32 hours it went from 1.192 with rapid airlock movement to 1.040 with no airlock movement, still some churning and bubbling in the fermenter, but with the FastFerment I had to open it to see it...I have a love/hate relationship with this thing.
About 4PM yesterday I added 6 cups of reserved wort (1.192), boiled 10 minutes, yeast nutrient and oxygenated for 2 minutes. Within 10 minutes it started bubbling at a rate of 60-80 bubbles per minute, within 20 minutes there was one right behind the last (about 120-130 per minute). About 8PM it was back down to the 60-80 mark and stayed strong. This morning it's closer to about 30 per minute, but still working.

 

[thatjonguy]

Jon,

Talked to my brewer friend from Troegs; he said it would have overpitched the he'll out of a beer north of 1.200. It's going to be hot with fusels, now way around that as the yeast are going to be stressed in this type of situation.

Also, he thought that any drier than 1.040 might be a little thin for a Utopias clone. I would agree since Utopias is pretty thick.

He referenced a batch he saw ferment out in 3 days by a large craft brewery in CO, that was a 18% stout and was very hot on samples.

Looks like you are on the right track. I might have to take a wack at this later this year.

 

[paulthenurse]

It need's to be well south of 1040 in order to be drinkable. I don't like the idea of too many small additions. Get it in there and finished. Eventually your going to have an environment that is just too hostile for continued fermentation. Remember, alcohol is toxic the more your yeasties create in there the faster it will make them go dormant. Trying to restart in a high alcohol environment is guaranteed to frustrate.

 

[JonAllenNH]

Thanks to both of you guys.

Jon, thanks for reaching out to your buddy. Good advice and I'll keep an eye on it. I enjoy Troegs, so kind of cool to have their input. The initial gravity into the fermenter was at 1.192 the OG of 1.212 is estimated and calculated with the additions of brown sugar and maple syrup in the primary. I overshot it a bit as I'd intended to get an OG (including additions) of 1.207.

PtN, I agree and have already started working on this. I've added one of the wort/brown sugar additions, this evening I'm going to add the entire maple syrup addition and tomorrow morning the rest of the wort/brown sugar additions. It's really dense with slurry and trub, so I've also been siphoning off some of the stuff settling from the conical to help clear up the fermenter a bit. Hoping that'll help settle things down. At this point, it's still going strong and maintaining between 60 and 120 bubbles per second depending on the temp and whether or not I've added an addition or O2 shot recently. At this point, I've cut the O2 shots except for the additions. Each one gets about 1.5 minutes of pure O2 before adding.
Glad I work from home so I can give it the attention it deserves. I was planning on brewing again tomorrow, but I think I may need to hold off on any more brew days until this thing settles down.

 

[ten80]

It need's to be well south of 1040 in order to be drinkable. I don't like the idea of too many small additions. Get it in there and finished. Eventually your going to have an environment that is just too hostile for continued fermentation. Remember, alcohol is toxic the more your yeasties create in there the faster it will make them go dormant. Trying to restart in a high alcohol environment is guaranteed to frustrate.

Agreed that re-starting is difficult, but if the additions are diligently added to maintain the highest possible level of fermentation, then you can at least stop making additions when it is apparent that the yeast are petering out.


I think the inhibitory alcohol concentration would be attained with either large or small additions assuming one can make additions at the right time to maintain peak yeast activity (caveat). The smaller additions would have to maintain a sugar concentration in solution that is excess of the maximum rate at which yeast can catabolize the sugar.

An additional consideration is that high wort sugar concentrations can inhibit yeast activity because of the high resulting osmotic gradient, so making smaller additions may be beneficial in this regard.

Jon,

Your yeast have a tough task ahead of them due to the detrimental effects of alcohol, CO2 (and low pH), sugars, and other metabolic bi-products, plus the depletion of free nitrogen and nutrients! Of these factors, you are already controlling nitrogen, nutrients, and sugars. Have you thought about periodically de-gassing the beer with a wine whip? Adding O2 displaces a little (but not all) CO2 from solution, but may result in oxidation over time.

De-gassing the beer will also temporarily increase the pH which could help spur yeast activity. If fermentation drives the pH much below 3(ish), then adding potassium carbonate to buffer pH may also have a beneficial effect on reducing yeast stress. This is done frequently for meads and wines.

 

[JonAllenNH]

As I'm not going to be carbing the beer...anyone have any thoughts on a quick and dirty DIY filter? I don't keg so I don't have CO2 or kegs handy so typical methods are out. I initially thought about a gravity fed granulated activated carbon, but I'd be worried about O2. I guess it's still feasible if I can come up with some kind of closed system...

 

[JonAllenNH]

Have you thought about periodically de-gassing the beer with a wine whip?

I think that's a good idea, but I don't have one. I think I can probably put something together with what I do have though. I'll see what I can do. Fortunately, all my kitchen utensils are also stainless which gives me a few more options.

 

[ten80]

I swirl the carboys at least twice a day for my big beers and that causes some pretty substantial de-gassing, but it is not as thorough as a wine whip and needs to be done more frequently to be effective.

Peristaltic or diaphragm pump can also be used to filter beer as they are self-priming and will introduce little to no oxygen to the beer. I can't think of a better solution for filtering.

What about some simpler solutions like just leaving the beer in secondary for a while (week or two) at cold temperatures or fining with gelatine or bentonite. I have used the latter two on beer and wine in the secondary carboy with good success.

 

[JonAllenNH]

I swirl the carboys at least twice a day for my big beers and that causes some pretty substantial de-gassing, but it is not as thorough as a wine whip and needs to be done more frequently to be effective.

Thanks Christophe, I'm using the FastFerment conical which makes swirling a bit of a challenge, but I have been rocking it (it's wall mounted) back and forth being careful not to splash at every addition and O2 shot. I also found a long slotted stainless spoon in my kitchen utensils. Obviously not quite the same as a degassing rod, but it's in the ballpark. I think I might give it a try.

As for the extended secondary, I'm going to be aging this on the oak and in secondary for 5-6 months (I doubt the oak will be in there that long, but we'll see) and planned on using gelatin. I did this on my last 3 brews and it's worked great so I think it's going to become part of my regular routine. With that said, I don't know that any further filtering would be necessary, but where it's not going to be carbonated I would like it to be crystal clear. Thanks for the pump ideas and I've also been scouring the internet as well. Found a guy using a whole house filter the same way we use from keg to keg for filtering, but with gravity. Seemed to work out OK for him, but that seems like a whole lot of oxidation I don't want.

 

[JonAllenNH]

With the exception of 1/4 gallon of reserved wort all additions have been added. It's in the beer god's hands now to a certain extent. Maintaining a watchful eye. Checking on it every few hours and degassing every so often. There seems to be a lot of gasses in there, when I pull from the bottom of the conical there's even a good amount of foam all the way down there. Never seen that before. The trub also doesn't seem to be separating out, but the yeast are still very active so I'm hoping/guessing that'll take care of itself in the end. Seeing lots of things I haven't seen before on this beer.

 

[JonAllenNH]

Still chugging along this morning. Took a reading and had a taste. The flavor is great, strong body (which I expected at it's current SG and the alcohol is surprisingly hidden tastes like maybe a 10-14% ABV would, just warmer). Luckily, I'm not getting a whole lot of off flavors or burn...yet. Hydro reading is at 1.036 at this point so it's slowly going down at this point. I know it's still early (pitched yeast around 12:30AM on Sat night/Sunday morning it's now Wednesday at 11AM), but I would have expected more trub to fall out by now. It's still loaded with particulates. This goes well beyond cloudy. I had a good hot break in the boil and good separation in the cold break. Most of which was left behind in the pot and I also used a strainer going into the fermenter which captured a lot more. I don't know where it all came from, it was actually one of my clearer worts going into the fermenter. Obviously I expected some from this high an OG, but this is a crazy amount. That has me a little concerned.

I've been holding off on adding amylase because I don't want it to be too thin, but I was shooting for 1.022 and it's still pretty high. Any opinions? I don't want to use Beano and have it wind up near - or worse below - 1.000, but I've read adding Amylase usually won't get it that low. I have a bottle of LD Carlson Amylase Enzyme which I added during mash for better efficiency. Some sites say it's just alpha, some sites say it's just beta, some sites say it's both...

 

[paulthenurse]

My recommendation... Stop f'ing with it. You have 500 billion yeast chewing down at an an all you can eat buffet. Leave the little barstids alone. Jezuz H Christ. You're reminding me of Thanksgiving at my sisters house. I've just eaten to the point of stupor and all I want to do is go flop in a chair and watch Dallas get humiliated for a few hours and she's organizing outings to the f'ing mall. Will you relax, fa Christ sake? Do you REALLY think I'm letting that last half of the pie rot in your fridge? Gimme a bit. I'm regathering myself. I'll get there. You know I'll get there.

Lighten up, Francis. I think you're in the stretch run. Now would be a good time to add the 099. That **** can ferment the dead hookers under your shed.

Don't ask how I know that.

 

[paulthenurse]

Oh ya. Stop with the silly pump and filter bullsh!t. This stuff needs to sit for AT LEAST 6-8 months before upu bottle. Rack it a few times to get it clear. Consider 50 ppm KMeta at each racking. (1/4 teaspoon/5 gallons). Make sure it's crystal clear before you bottle so that every time you open a bottle you don't want to punch Yeager in the throat.

Not that I would know anything about that.

 

[JonAllenNH]

I planned on aging it in secondary for 5-6 months. Plus adding a gelatin fining. I want it to be crystal clear so the filtering was for after the 6 months if it still needs it by then, but the KMeta is not a bad thought that I hadn't considered. **Edit** I only knew what KMeta was from a friend who makes wine. Did some reading and it looks like 50ppm is all that's recommended total (for wine). So, would 50ppm at each racking be too high? Not sure what the intent was of your suggestion. Since it's for stabilization and preservative wouldn't 50ppm at bottling be more appropriate, like with wine?

 

[paulthenurse]

Nope KMeta needs to go in with evey racking. You won't taste it and it's much better to add a little metabisulfite then lose $500 worth of beer

 

[JonAllenNH]

Thanks PtN. For my own educational knowledge, why? From what I know about KMeta it's a preservative, stabilizes flavors and color and prevents oxidization. Since this is a higher ABV beer wouldn't oxidization be slightly less of a concern? Obviously, I still don't want it to oxidize as much as possible, but I've been thinking about making a barleywine or a Wee Heavy for a while and everything I've read on those say oxidization can be a good thing to get a bit of a sherry type flavor. Plus, the real Utopias is barrel aged for 10+ years which would lead to some oxidization. Again, I'm not questioning your methods, just curious. You're the only one I know of that's attempted this beer before, so I don't take your advice lightly on this.

 

[paulthenurse]

It's the winemaker in me talking. There is no sense in not adding it. I don't know what percent of alcohol you need before it is bactericidal but why chance it? You can't detect 50 ppm, it won't effect your flavor. This stuff will be around for a long time, it would suck to have it go bad after 5 years.

And I REALLY doubt that SA keeps their Utopia in barrels for 10 years. A few years maybe.

 

[JonAllenNH]

According to their website they have some barrels that have been sitting since 1994 that go into Utopias. At least according to Jim.
Thanks. I'll pick up some KMeta before it's time to rack.

 

[JonAllenNH]

Almost a week into fermentation, I haven't touched it since Weds, looks like everything is starting to settle out. Very minimal activity in the airlock and looking at it from the outside there is a clear line at the bottom of trub falling out (finally). Looks like I have a little over 1 liter of trub at the bottom. No idea what the gravity is at the moment, but it's looking good and still chugging a long. It was approaching 1.030 when I stopped touching it on Weds. Oak is soaking (1oz in Bourbon and 1oz in Tawny Port). I'm going to let it sit in primary for another week before taking my gravity reading and 'racking' to secondary. Since it's in the FastFerment I don't need to rack in the traditional since, but rather just remove the trub/yeast collection ball. As I want it to be crystal clear, I'm considering racking to an empty carboy anyway, at least at some point in the process. Thanks for all the input and help along the way, guys. (@paulthenurse, @thatjonguy, @ten80) This brew was a blast and a learning experience for the next time I do bigger beers.

 

[paulthenurse]

It's your beer, do wHat you want but I would suggest taking a reading now while you still have some activity. If a week goes by before you see where your gravity stopped if you need to restart you'll have to get it going again from a dead stop in a hostile environment. Just my 2 cents.

 

[JonAllenNH]

Update: Fermentation is going well and I'm about to put it into secondary with the oak tomorrow. After letting it sit a while I took a gravity reading and it's at 1.024. Great flavor and great mouthfeel. Not too much, but still rich. Alcohol content, now pushing 26%, is noticeable, but not overpowering. Can't wait to see what the oak adds to it. I've had a half ounce of Hungarian Oak cubes soaking in port for a week and a half ounce soaking in bourbon. Will be adding them both tomorrow.

 

[paulthenurse]

Save yourself some bother and put the chips in a Muslim hop sock so they don't clog your hose a few months from now.

 

[JonAllenNH]

Yup, was planning on it. Thanks, Paul.

 

[JonAllenNH]

It's been a while, so just a quick update. Added the oak around the 1st of the month. It's been sitting ever since. Tasted last week and it was starting to blend, but still needed some time. Tasted again today and the flavor is great. A lot of the sweetness that was present last week (still easy to drink, just sweet) is now gone. I don't know if the yeast are somehow still active or if that's due to the oak...I'm leaning toward the later...I can't imagine those little guys are still around. In any event, I'm having an internal battle with myself as I'm going out of town for a week this weekend for work and I can't decide if I should take out the oak. It still needs a bit more, but it's pretty close. I'd hate to come home to over-oaked beer that I've been working on for months and poured money into...never oaked before, but I've heard oak doesn't really dissipate with age if it gets over-oaked. It's really quite a phenomenal beer though. I'm very happy so far.

 

[thatjonguy]

Take the oak out.

You can always take some fresh oak and your choice of alcohol to make a tincture. Add as needed at bottling/blending.

 

[paulthenurse]

I disagree. Leave it in. If you take it out and decide later on that it needs more you will end up putting new oak back in. That will give you more of the initial oak flavor that comes out of the wood, but not the stuff that comes out after the initial flavor components have come out. I'm not describing it well... Try this. If a given quantity of oak puts out a given amount of flavors from A through Z and the A flavors come out fast and furious but the Z flavors take time. So now a month has gone by. All of the a through O flavors have leached out. Given more time the P through Z flavors will come out and join the party. But if you yank out the wood now you're left with a half done flavor profile. If you add more oak later you'll end up with double the A flavors and probably no Z because you'll realize that your A profile is becoming overwhelming and yank out the oak then. Let what is in there go.

Just some thoughts from the voices in my head... And you should listen to them because I do all the time and look where it's gotten me.......



Maybe yanking the oak out is a good idea after all.

Nah. Leave it in there.

Lets sing...

A B C.
Easy as 123
Simple as do re mi
A B C
1 2 3
Voices talk to me.

 

[stpug]

... but I've heard oak doesn't really dissipate with age if it gets over-oaked....

Actually, oak DOES mellow and blend over time in a bottle. Of course, over-oaking is over-oaking, and you're better off not over-oaking.

Do you have the ability to simply remove half of your oak? When I add oak I put it in a strainer bag so it can be removed later on. The benefit is that once removed I could remove half of the oak and add it back if I desired to.

 

[paulthenurse]

Bueller? Bueller?

 

[JonAllenNH]

Sorry guys, been crazy busy. Tasted the beer before I left and it was pushing too much oak so I pulled it. After getting back last weekend I tasted it and the flavors are blending together more, but oak is still very prevalent. It's very nice, very complex. Plums, figs, malts, cloves, alcohol, deliciousness.

 

[JonAllenNH]

So the beer has been sitting for quite some time. It's really quite tasty, crystal clear, nice deep color. A little too much oak flavor, but it's right on the line of just right and too much. I might cut it with another bottle or two of Sam Adams Tetravis which was mixed in previously in the secondary to balance out the oak a bit more. All in all, I'm happy. Great after dinner drink!

 

[paulthenurse]

Congrats. Now you know you can do anything

 

[HDTVdevil]

While reading up on al these high-gravity brewe, I have been going gradually up in ABV (last one was 18% abv) and am planning a similar (not ment as an Utopias clone) strong brew in the coming weeks.

 

[paulthenurse]

Good luck Its a fun brew day, get a bunch of friends together and really make an event of it. The memories and the laughter will last a lot longer than the beer.

 

[Melana]

Good luck Its a fun brew day, get a bunch of friends together and really make an event of it. The memories and the laughter will last a lot longer than the beer.

Do it again