Sam Adams Utopias clone - Calling all big beer experts! Paulthenurse and yeager1977

[JonAllenNH]

Alright guys, so here's the deal. I'm making a Utopias clone for my CEO at my company (no pressure). This will be my first big beer - I generally stay under 6% and 8% is my max previously - and I just want to make sure I'm doing everything right. I'd love to get any recommendations. While I've made sure he knows there's no promises on how it will come out, I've been given a substantial budget for this brew to buy equipment and materials. I've been brewing for about two years now. Started as an extract brewer and moved to all grain (sort of - BIAB) 6 months later, so I don't have a TON of experience, but I have yet to make a bad brew, so I like to think I have a pretty good handle on things. Not to say I don't still have a ton to learn. I'm OK with having issues and making mistakes, but I want to avoid a complete train wreck. I've borrowed and tweaked a recipe from PaulTheNurse and Yeager1977. My CEO is a big Scotch drinker so I've added some Peat smoked malt in place of smoked malt and I'm planning on aging it with oak cubes soaked in peated whiskey. I'm also trying some new techniques in the mash. Here's my plan:

Batch Size: 3G
Boil Size: 6.5 gallons
Est Efficiency: approx 68% on average
OG: 1.206
FG: 1.033
IBUs: 25 (exactly the same as what Sam Adams claims)
SRM: 34 (exactly the same as SA)
ABV: 23.8% (a little short of SA which is 28%)
Total Grain bill: 24# 6.9oz

10# 14.5oz Pale 2-row
3# 10.2oz Munich Malt
3# 8.2oz Crystal 60L
2# 1.3oz Toasted Malt
1# 5.7oz Munich 10L
12.4oz Peat Smoked Malt
6.1oz Melanoiden Malt

Added to mash
.3 tsp Amylase Enzyme
.51oz Spalt hops
.51oz Tettnang hops


Splitting Mash & Boil into two kettles/tuns - exactly in half will combine after Boil:
Mash: 30 min @ 104 - 40 min @ 140 - 30 min @ 156
Mash Out: 10 min @ 170

120 min boil (boil off 1.75 gallon per kettle)
Hop additions
.77oz Spalt 60 min
.77oz Tettnang 60 min
.77oz Hallertauer Mittelfrueh 30 min
.77oz Hallertauer Mittelfrueh 10 min
WLP009 Super High Gravity
Lalvin EC-1118 to finish

Aging:
14.5oz Brown Sugar (split over two feedings)
14.5oz Maple Syrup (split over two feedings)

Fermenting strategy:
I know big beers can wreck havoc on the yeast...so here's my plan:
1) Yeast Propagation: I'll be making a 1L WLP009 starter @ 1.040, then stepping it up to 1G @ 1.040. At that point, I'll be brewing a 5G "mini" version of the above beer scaled back (using BeerSmith) to a 1.060 OG. Reserving 1G sweet wort for pitching)
2) Mix 2G of the wort (reserving 1G) with the 1G of 1.060 to "step up" gravity before giving it the full dose. Aerate with pure O2/Aeration stone pitch yeast.
3) When ferm slows, harvest yeast from conical aerate reserved 1G pitch the yeast/trub/beer removed from the conical to make a starter. Pitch the following day.
4) When ferm slows, add half brown sugar, aerate with O2.
5) When ferm slows, add half maple sugar, aerate with O2.
Repeat 4 & 5
6) When ferm slows, pitch 1118 with 1L 1.060 starter (spent beer siphoned off).
Expect steps 2-6 to take approximately 3-4 weeks. After fermentation is complete (according to hydrometer) rack to secondary. Add Medium-Heavy American Oak chips soaked in peated whiskey for 1 week and age for another 5+ months. If necessary, based on current SG, add a little more brown sugar or maple.

I'd considered/am considering pulling the yeast and washing it/starting it during each step of 4-6...that might be overkill?? Can you OVERpitch yeast?

Please let me know what you think guys! Should be (hopefully) like a beer, port and fine scotch mixed...here's hoping! Suggestions welcome, especially tips, tricks, things to watch for in a big beer brew.

 

[JonAllenNH]

No one??

 

[Brettomomyces]

I don't have a lot of experience with huge beers, but that is a lot of peat smoked malt for 3 gallons, I would consider lowering that to just a few ounces. Peat smoked malt has a very strong flavor, especially if you're going to use scotch soaked wood too.

 

[JonAllenNH]

Thanks, Brettomomyces. Actually in speaking with my brother, who has been lucky enough to actually taste the real thing, he advised against peat all together and likened the real Utopias to similar to cognac. He advised going regular smoked malt and aging with bourbon soaked oak instead of peated scotch. Since he's an Exec Chef and a certified Cicerone (however not a brewer)...I would tend to listen to that. If I use regular smoked is it still too much? Especially with the massive grain bill?

 

[edroberts]

Thanks, Brettomomyces. Actually in speaking with my brother, who has been lucky enough to actually taste the real thing, he advised against peat all together and likened the real Utopias to similar to cognac. He advised going regular smoked malt and aging with bourbon soaked oak instead of peated scotch. Since he's an Exec Chef and a certified Cicerone (however not a brewer)...I would tend to listen to that. If I use regular smoked is it still too much? Especially with the massive grain bill?

All the Utopias I've had were much closer to cognac. Never got any smoked malt in them, but I've only been lucky enough to try 3 different years.

Does WLP009 have a tolerance that high? That is certainly the most difficult part of this experiment and the key thing that makes Utopias unique.
Also, to really bump up the ABV, you may be best to add you simple sugars in more than two batches. Some that have cloned Westy 12 have had more success with doing several simple sugar additions a couple days apart.

 

[JonAllenNH]

Does WLP009 have a tolerance that high?

Whoops...typo, that's WLP099 Super High Gravity tolerates 25% ABV according to WhiteLabs.

 

[JonAllenNH]

Sorry to split this in two...would you split the same amount of sugars into smaller doses and make it 8 feedings instead of 4 or double it and make it 8? I planned on adding the maple as is in syrup form, but melting down the brown sugar with a little distilled water to make a syrup.

 

[JonAllenNH]

Never got any smoked malt in them

Make that three...sorry this is why you shouldn't forum at work. Ha!
I've never had the pleasure of tasting Utopia. Got the smoked malt from a Paulthenurse and Yeager1977 recipe they made. Guessing it was to simulate some of the barrel aging process? But I could be wrong, I've never used smoked malt before.

 

[edroberts]

Sorry to split this in two...would you split the same amount of sugars into smaller doses and make it 8 feedings instead of 4 or double it and make it 8? I planned on adding the maple as is in syrup form, but melting down the brown sugar with a little distilled water to make a syrup.

I'm sorry... I read your recipe a bit wrong. I had thought you were dropping nearly a pound of your simple sugars at once. I wouldn't think that 4 - 7oz additions would stress the yeast too much.

 

[edroberts]

Make that three...sorry this is why you shouldn't forum at work. Ha!
I've never had the pleasure of tasting Utopia. Got the smoked malt from a Paulthenurse and Yeager1977 recipe they made. Guessing it was to simulate some of the barrel aging process? But I could be wrong, I've never used smoked malt before.

I believe that Boston Beer makes each version a little differently, so it's certainly possible they've used some peat. It may actually add a unique aspect to the flavor. What's more likely is that they've used some barrels with a darker toast in the blending, which may attribute a bit to that kind of a flavor profile.

 

[bonsai4tim]

Just finished a similar project--I made a 5 gallon batch of a RIS at 1.100 and started it on WLP099. I kept 1.5 gallon of the original wort aside, and added enough DME (and 3 pound sugar) and then boiled it back down to 1.5 gallon. I added this every 5-6 days when the fermentation slowed.

oxygenation is really helpful.

Your plan sounds similar, so it should work.

good luck,

 

[JonAllenNH]

I guess another question I have, if anyone can answer it, is around OG. If I reserve a gallon of the 1.206 OG wort and pitch the 1.060 gallon starter, then add back the gallon of 1.206 as ferm slows...how do I calculate the actual OG equivalent? Since it's essentially 3 gallons @ 1.206 and 1 gallong @ 1.060. I got the idea from a BYO article and he said 'keep track of the value and gravity to calculate the actual OG', but never actually said how to do it...

 

[dyqik]

I guess another question I have, if anyone can answer it, is around OG. If I reserve a gallon of the 1.206 OG wort and pitch the 1.060 gallon starter, then add back the gallon of 1.206 as ferm slows...how do I calculate the actual OG equivalent? Since it's essentially 3 gallons @ 1.206 and 1 gallong @ 1.060. I got the idea from a BYO article and he said 'keep track of the value and gravity to calculate the actual OG', but never actually said how to do it...

Just add the gravity points from each contribution to the wort. Gravity points is (SG - 1) * volume, so

(Final SG - 1) * final volume = (1st vol SG - 1) * 1st volume + (2nd vol SG - 1) * 2nd volume

(Final SG - 1) * 4 gallons = 0.206 * 3 gallons + 0.060 * 1 gallon
Final SG - 1 = 0.1695
Final SG = 1.1695

People often multiply by 1000 to give whole numbers for gravity points rather than decimals, but that's doesn't change the math. When combining wort volumes, you don't need to do the subtract 1 thing either, but that is required if you are using the same math for dry sugar or malt additions, which don't change the volume very much if at all, or if you are calculating boil off, where the volume changes, but the total quantity of sugars doesn't.

 

[JonAllenNH]

That's what I was thinking. Thanks!

 

[paulthenurse]

Hi Jon
I like your recipe and brew plan, they sound good to me. Can't stress enough the importance of oxygenating the wort before you pitch. Pitch a HUGE amount of yeast from a healthy ferment of a relatively big beer. Expect a lot of foam, have plenty of headspace.
And lastly, consider Beano. We didn't use it but if we do another batch I think we would. We didn't because we wanted to ensure that we had plenty of big complex sugars for mouthfeel and flavor and worried that Beano would chomp through all of that. But youre going to have such a full beer that I feel you can do it.

I don't think I would like the peated flavor in there. In our version I think it would be out of place, but that is our version, you are doing your own and doing it for a guy who grooves on that element. We used bourbon (I think) and left the chips in long enough to absorb all the bourbon, gave it a great element.

Good luck and let us know how it turns out.
PTN

 

[ImNoExpert]

I'm not sure what your setup is but I think a big beer like this is going to have way lower efficiency than 68%. Maybe 50 - 55?

 

[paulthenurse]

Update?

 

[JonAllenNH]

Hey guys, sorry for going quiet. Been busy getting everything together. I've got everything operating brilliantly and did a Spring brew (wishful thinking in New England) last weekend with a Black IPA and Smoked Kolsch to break in the new system. Worked great. Got my efficiency up from 68% to 93% thanks, in no small part, to digital temp regulation on the mash. Finally have everything built and tweaked. Getting about 4 gallons a boil-off in 90 minutes (split in two kettles)! Very vigorous.
Got the last of my ingredients and equipment in from my LHBS today.

Expect a lot of foam, have plenty of headspace.

Added the 7.9 gallon FastFerment to the arsenal for this brew. With a 3 gallon batch there should be loads of headroom. Figured I'd also have the option of removing the yeast bed, washing it, adding the left over sweet wort, oxygenating the hell out of it and repitching.

And lastly, consider Beano. We didn't use it but if we do another batch I think we would. We didn't because we wanted to ensure that we had plenty of big complex sugars for mouthfeel and flavor and worried that Beano would chomp through all of that. But youre going to have such a full beer that I feel you can do it.

I'd considered that, but after reading up on it I opted to go for the Amylase instead...mistake? If so I'll run to CVS before the brew. I was also considering maybe adding the beano, but to the mash rather than the fermenter. From what I read it'll help break everything down during the mash, but it'll be neutralized in the boil. Anyone have experience with that?

I don't think I would like the peated flavor in there. In our version I think it would be out of place, but that is our version, you are doing your own and doing it for a guy who grooves on that element. We used bourbon (I think) and left the chips in long enough to absorb all the bourbon, gave it a great element.

I ditched the peat. Seemed that everyone I talked to was against it except me. I stayed with regular smoked (rauchbier) instead. As for the bourbon, I'm doing that. I got 4oz of Hungarian (it was supposed to be American, but there was a mixup at the LHBS) cubes. PTN, how much did you use and what do you recommend. It'll be my first time oaking and have read horror stories about over doing it. Most recommendations seem to be in the 0.5oz range? Whatever amount I choose I'm going to soak half in bourbon and half in tawny port to simulate the various barrels used by Sam Adams for this brew. I'd also considered picking up a bottle of Tetravis and adding some of that. 1) It has Kosmic Mother Funk in it which SA uses in the latest version of Utopias and 2) it's bottle conditioned with Champagne yeast. I'll be finishing with my own Champagne yeast, but figured a little extra couldn't hurt. Plus it should add some Belgian Quad complexities as well. Let me know what you guys think of that.

As for updates...this beer has been incredibly expensive. Having an investor is great. Ripped through a lot of it on gear, but the ingredients alone were pushing $150 (including the 5 gallon starter).
I'm going to be brewing the 5 gallon starter this Saturday. I'm going to ferment 4 gallons of that in the FastFerment until the following Thursday and then rack it into a carboy. The other 1 gallon will be canned in canning jars until the 'big' brew day. It might be a little early and I'd like that beer to still be good, but the main batch is the focus. I might add some washed English Ale (WLP002) or California Ale (WLP001) to it to make sure it has enough to completely ferment and condition. Those are the only two I have harvested at the moment. I digress...
On Thursday after racking I'll wash the yeast from the starter and on Friday I'll use the left over gallon to make a starter. It's already 1.060 (hopefully) so that should be pretty good. Boil it briefly to sanitize, add yeast nutrient, cool, oxygenate and pitch. It'll sit happily on the (new) stir plate until Saturday which will be brew day. Having 35lbs of grains sitting in my kitchen with no where to put them is a bit intimidating, but I'll find a spot.

Starting to get extremely excited and incredibly nervous all at the same time. So much time and money invested in this...hope it doesn't crash and burn.

 

[JonAllenNH]

Hey guys,
I could really use some help on this one...I'm killing myself going back and forth. So I brewed the starter batch and the flavor heading into the fermenter (always taste the hydro sample after testing) was good, but not great. I often taste the sample and say, 'wow this is going to be great', but not this time. There were a lot of additional grains that I think may have been superfluous. I was hoping they would add some complexities I'm losing due to aging 6 months vs. 10 years. I'm sure aging will make the flavors blend better, but as of now it's just...cloudy. I've simplified the recipe a bit, but now I'm stuck in a conundrum. Do I continue as planned and do another batch later with the new recipe and compare or do I scrap it now and adjust before doing the big brew?
Recipes:
Old
1.207 OG
25 IBU
34 SRM
ABV: 24.7%
2-row: 11# 12.7oz
Munich 9L: 3# 14.8oz
Crystal 60L: 2# 4.8oz
Toasted Malt: 2# 4.3oz
Munich 10L: 1# 7.5oz
Smoked Malt: 13.3oz
Melanoiden: 6.6oz

Spalt: .5oz (mash)
Tettnang: .5oz (mash)
Spalt: .75oz (60)
Tettnang: .75 (60)
Mittelfrueh: .75 (30)
Mittelfrueh: .75 (10)

WLP099 Primary
Lalvin EC-1118 Secondary
Light Brown Sugar: 15.2 oz (split over two additions)
Maple Syrup: 9.2oz (split over two additions)

New
1.211 OG
25.3 IBU
34 SRM
ABV: 25.7%
2-row: 12# 4oz
Munich 9L: 5# 8oz
Crystal 60L: 3# 4oz
Smoked Malt: 1#

Spalt: .6oz (mash)
Tettnang: .6oz (mash)
Spalt: .7oz (60)
Tettnang: .7oz (60)
Mittelfrueh: .7oz (30)
Mittelfrueh: .7oz (10)

WLP099 Primary
Lalvin EC-1118 Secondary
Light Brown Sugar: 1# 8oz (split over two additions)
Maple Syrup: 12oz (split over two additions)

I guess what I'm struggling with, is that yes, the new recipe is cleaner, but does it justify the $40 in grain to start over? It's not really that much different.

 

[aStoutObserver]

Stick with the old one. At the worst it will teach you valuable lessons for the next one you do.

 

[paulthenurse]

Just go with it. You're trying to extrapolate an extremely complex beer from an ounce of wort. Trust your recipe.

 

[JonAllenNH]

So update time. The starter beer is finished fermenting. I've pulled the yeast bed and washed it. Ended up with 1500ml of slurry which appears to be almost entirely yeast, very little trub and beer present. Yikes! Letting the starter beer sit for another day to clear a bit and see if any more yeast falls out. I'm going to use every last bit I can get. But the flavor on the starter is really great so I'm looking forward to the big beer! Bring it on! Making the starter tomorrow and brewing on Saturday. Full swing now. No turning back!

Wow...just....wow.

 

[paulthenurse]

Good luck. Remember, control your temperature and oxygenate the living daylight out of if.

 

[JonAllenNH]

So the brew day went well. Got a 72% efficiency. OG at 1.212 and bubbling away in primary. Added 4 minutes of O2 within the 1st hour (2 minutes at pitch, 2 minutes an hour later) and another 2 minute shot of O2 this morning. Bubbling pretty violently so I'm going to let it sit till this evening and give it another shot. Then I'll let it sit till it slows and add 1/2 gallon of reserved wort, well oxygenated, with 1/2tsp dissolved amylase enzime. At the next slow down I'll use another 1/4 gallon of reserved wort, oxygenated, to make a syrup with 1/2 the brown sugar. Then add 1/2 the maple syrup. Then the last 1/4 gallon of reserved wort with last of dissolved brown sugar, followed by the last of the maple syrup. Soaking .5oz of Hungarian oak cubes in bourbon for 2 weeks and .5oz of oak cubes in tawny port for 2 weeks for the secondary. So far so good. Estimating a 26.4% ABV based on OG and original recipe.

 

[paulthenurse]

I'll send you my address.

 

[gotbags-10]

Jealous!! Would love to try a brew of this magnitude

 

[JonAllenNH]

Fermentation has already slowed to a few bubbles a second as of the O2 shot this morning so I decided to take a gravity reading. It's already down to 1.040 after just a little over a day! Those yeasties are hungry! Doesn't hurt that I had a massive amount of yeast (about 1590 billion cells). So far it's going great. Couldn't resist taking a sip of the sample. Still pretty gritty as it's only day 2, but the flavor is great and already about 20% ABV and I haven't even added the amalyse, maple syrup and brown sugar yet!

 

[JonAllenNH]

Jealous!! Would love to try a brew of this magnitude

It's not the cheapest brew day, but it was tons of fun! So much more work the entire brew day, but so much more fun.

 

[JonAllenNH]

Given how well the fermentation is going, I think I'm going to skip the amalyse in the primary. I can always add a little toward the end of fermentation if it slows too much. I'm a little worried about killing the body given how well it's fermenting.

 

[gotbags-10]

1.212 to 1.040 in a day! Wow!

 

[paulthenurse]

I don't view that explosive fermentation as necessarily a good thing. I'd much rather see a steady, controlled progression through to the finish. I'd be afraid that whatever biochemical markers the yeast use as they ramp up and down just showed up by the bucketload and might shut down the party. I'm no yeast biologist but it concerns me. Let's hope I'm totally off base and they're good for that next 30 points.

 

[JonAllenNH]

Yeah, the thought crossed my mind, but I was trying to be positive. I had my LHBS put aside another vial if the stuff hits the fan, but I'll be hoping it gets at least close enough for the champagne yeast to finish it off. I was attributing (wishful thinking perhaps) that the mass quantity of yeast was to blame for the fast ferment. I'm going to be taking another reading this evening and see what the progress was today. If it has barely changed since this morning I'll be worried.

 

[JonAllenNH]

PTN, while signs of fermentation are barely noticeable from the outside (the FastFerment is opaque) - maybe a bubble every 2-4 minutes - I decided to take a peek at the next O2 shot. There's still a lot of activity in there. Didn't grab a reading, but decided to go ahead and give it a small shot of reserved wort (aerated), and some yeast nutrient as well (I forgot it in the boil). Within 10 minutes of adding it it was back up to 60-80 bubbles per minute. At 20 minutes I'm back up to nearly constant bubbling. So they're not done that's for sure, maybe they just didn't have much left to break down...I'll keep an eye on the gravity and maybe I'll want that amylase after all...

Also, anyone have any recommendations on oaking? Using Hungarian cubes, I'm going to soak .5oz in tawny port and .5oz in bourbon for 2 weeks before adding. Just can't figure out how long I'll leave them in for. Not that it matters to know ahead of time as I'll be checking it every few days for flavor anyway, but anyone have an idea of a ballpark? I'm guessing, given the high OG I'm probably looking at at least a month. Also, I'm going back and forth on steaming at least the .5oz soaked in port prior to soaking. I know the bourbon is enough to sanitize, but port I got is only 18%. I've also read steaming the oak first, no matter what the soak, tends to add a better flavor anyway. Anyone have any experience with this?

 

[paulthenurse]

You'll steam away flavor. I wouldn't do it. If you're uber worried or anal toss them in the oven for a few minutes. It further concentrate your wood flavor.

I just brewed a bourbon porter. Filled up a pint mason jar with dark oak, Jim Beam to cover and added when the bourbon was all absorbed. The smell is phenom but the taste takes longer.

 

[JonAllenNH]

That sounds great. How much and how long in the secondary?

Just pulled a sample of the mild version and mixed in a little bourbon, port and Tetravis (a few drops of each since it was only a sample of the lighter abv/body version) that I plan to use. There's no oaking (except on the Tetravis), but it's really good. Very complex with lots of layers. I'm very confident in my plan at this point. Fermentation is still bubbling away after the addition of more wort so I'm not too worried about the yeast at this point. Looks like they just might be a little faster than I expected.

 

[thatjonguy]

What was your calculated pitch against your needed pitch?

 

[ten80]

I'm with Paul on the slower, more controlled fermentations.

What was your pitching temp? I suspect it might have been a little high (68-70?) and if so, could have been partially responsible for the violent fermentation. I'd be interested to know.

I've been thinking about doing this recipe for a while. Starting the fermentation on the cold side (62ish) and ramping temp up to about 75 near the end of the fermentation would be my preferred strategy for a clean fermentation with minimal yeast stress.

Aging and oak may help cover up or break down any hot or estery flavors, but what do I know, I've only brewed up to 11% stouts

Thanks for documenting your process!

 

[JonAllenNH]

What was your calculated pitch against your needed pitch?

According to BeerSmith I needed 380 billion cells (rounding up), but between the 2L starter pitched into the 5G "mild" version and then making a 2.5L starter with the washed yeast from that I should have ended up in the neighborhood of 1590 billion, so even if I got half that viable I'm way over what's necessary.

Ten80: I pitched at about 65-66*F. To be honest, I was actually shooting for 68*, and I've maintained 67* in ferm since with a digital temp controller. The yeast seem plenty happy, thus far no off or hot flavors tastes mostly the same as it did going into the fermenter, just a tad more blended. Thus far it tastes great and the mild version, which is now in secondary, tastes fantastic, especially blended with the other alcohols I'm going to blend with it - as mentioned earlier. I'd highly recommend trying it! Even if this comes out horribly wrong, this brew has been a blast and I'll at least have the mild version to keep me warm at night if it all goes south.

 

[thatjonguy]

I'm not sure if you got there, but there is such a thing as over pitching, that can lead to problems of it's own. I would agree that a gradual fermentation is much better than explosive.

You used 099 right? That stuff is a beast, so it might be okay in the long run; but you can't age out the precursors for yeast reproduction if the yeast are dead from high alcohol levels. Pitching new yeast might not be able to clean it up either.

At any rate, not trying to scare you.

Thanks for sharing your process. I'm excited to see the end results!

 

[ten80]

Ten80: I pitched at about 65-66*F. To be honest, I was actually shooting for 68*, and I've maintained 67* in ferm since with a digital temp controller.

Well shoot, my armchair brewmaster temperature guess was wrong

Sounds like you just had a lot of super active yeast, that's an impressive start. Next time put on some Kenny G to mellow them out.

Have you considered nutrient additions? A little DAP or Fermax about now might help prolong activity. I don't think there is any potential for off flavors from either, especially given the massive amount of yeast in your fermentor.

cheers,
Christophe