Rubber taste

[mlandon98]

I am an all-grain brewer. I am completely at a loss because my darker beers come out fine but any pale beer I make (2-row, 6-row, pale, vienna, munich; doesn't matter) has a very strong burnt rubber taste. I have brewed in three states with well water, tap water, and Primo water (from a filling station). I keep my house between 60 and 70 degrees Fahrenheit. I initially thought it was a chlorine issue so I started boiling my water to remove it and then I thought it was a pH problem. The pH of my water was over 7 but reducing it to between 5.2-5.6 prior to mashing refined the flavors overall but only slightly reduced the burnt rubber flavor. I even make sure it stays in primary between 10-15 days to prevent autolysis. I have added nothing but citric acid to reduce pH. Also, fermentation is aggressive and there is pressure in the airlock until bottling day. I do not bottle until the time between bubbles is great. And, this is very important, I taste test prior to bottling and do not notice a rubber taste or smell AT ALL which leads me to believe that this taste is achieved during bottling (no doubt someone will insist that this contaminates the batch, 1. I use a sanitized spoon and 2. infections do not cause rubber taste)

A friend of a friend is a professional brewer and he has no solution for this. Equipment is thoroughly sanitized (I have only had 1 infection which contributed a pleasant sour taste and I knew it was possible because I checked for smell frequently. This was an amber with little to no rubber taste.), pH is ideal, water sources have varied, and temperature has been consistent. The only things I can think of is buying a water testing kit (over $100) to inspect ion concentrations but there is clearly a correlation between the "paleness" of the beer and this burnt rubber flavor or adding campden tablets to neutralize chlorine/chloramine tastes and the like.

I have seen all speculation on this issue and considered every possible factor. If you have not had this problem AND solved it, please avoid replying to this thread.

 

[passedpawn]

If you have not had this problem AND solved it, please avoid replying to this thread.

Yea, gonna ignore that right off. Not how it works here.

Has anyone else tasted your beer and gotten the same rubber flavor?

 

[mlandon98]

Yea, gonna ignore that right off. Not how it works here.

Has anyone else tasted your beer and gotten the same rubber flavor?

Is this a joke?

 

[Beermeister32]

Check your fermentation temperatures. Your carboy temp can rise 5-10F degrees over ambient causing off-flavors.

Dark beers can hide off-flavors. When you get into pale beers, ale or lager there is nowhere to hide off-flavors. They are the most difficult to brew correctly.

If you can, get an old mini-refrigerator with a temp controller, and shoot for the lower end of the fermentation temp range for the yeast you have selected, factoring in the rise in temperature of the wort in the carboy.

 

[Jag75]

Is this a joke?

You took the time to register and become a member on this great forum asking for help. It's not a joke, people here actually try and help , teach and share brewing experiences.

Welcome to HBT. Have a great day

http://www.pencilandspoon.com/2011/06/when-beer-goes-bad-autolysis.html?m=1

 

[mlandon98]

You took the time to register and become a member on this great forum asking for help. It's not a joke, people here actually try and help , teach and share brewing experiences.

Welcome to HBT. Have a great day

http://www.pencilandspoon.com/2011/06/when-beer-goes-bad-autolysis.html?m=1

I do not have taste buds unique to our species. I am quite certain other people taste the same thing.

 

[mlandon98]

Check your fermentation temperatures. Your carboy temp can rise 5-10F degrees over ambient causing off-flavors.

Dark beers can hide off-flavors. When you get into pale beers, ale or lager there is nowhere to hide off-flavors. They are the most difficult to brew correctly.

If you can, get an old mini-refrigerator with a temp controller, and shoot for the lower end of the fermentation temp range for the yeast you have selected, factoring in the rise in temperature of the wort in the carboy.

Thank you Beermeister, there is some new information here. In hours of reading I NEVER read that fermentation increases temperature within the fermenter. I have been keeping my beer room at 65-67 F which of course means that my fermentation temperature is probably greater than or equal to 73 F. I should have mentioned that I have been using Safale S-04 (sky blue package) which has an ideal max fermentation temp of 68 F (20 C), as shown on the package, which leads me to believe that I should keep the temperature outside of my fermenter at a maximum of 58 F.

To address the question of beer darkness, I intentionally made an extremely dark beer which only real enthusiasts liked, and of course there was no hint of this off flavor but I recently made two paler ales. Both used exclusively light malts except I added cara aroma to one. Now, cara aroma is not a very dark malt HOWEVER I gave that batch a half-assed boiling treatment (I boiled for at least 5 minutes with no siphoning or decanting, the result of ignorance on my part) which I hope contributed to the near non-existence of the off-taste. That being said, though, when I add a slice of orange to one of my off-beers it does a great job of making the beer drinkable and I also worry that perhaps the flavors and smells added by the cara aroma simply mask it and the boil fixed nothing.

After I initially posted this, I was doing some reading on alkalinity, which I thought was synonymous with basicity, and learned about residual alkalinity. I adjusted both beers for pH with citric acid. The one without cara aroma had a pH of about 5.4 prior to mashing, using my pH meter, but the one with cara aroma was pHed with my father's winemaking proportions and upon later measuring the pH of some leftover water I discovered that the pH prior to mashing was under 5. The contribution of excessive acid explains why the beer turned out to be a palatable sour (not bacterial infection like I had thought) but I wonder if the sheer amount of acid I added was also able to reduce the residual alkalinity to the point that it fixed the off-flavor

I should also have mentioned that in the worst of my off-beers (this is the only off flavor I have ever had besides the one souring) the mouthfeel is thin and fizzy, the taste is sharp and overbearing. Soon I am going to make a beer with pre-boiled water and campden added. I have had luck with Rye in the past. I think I will use Rye and add a chocolate Rye as well which will help mask the flavor if I have not fixed the problem.

Lastly, I have no idea what I should look for in a mini-fridge, and I certainly do not know how much they should cost. Any ideas?

 

[TLaffey]

Two things stand out for me from your description.

First is the citric acid. This is used by some as a preservative more than for pH control. Personally, I use lactic acid in mash and phosphoric acid if needed in the boil.

Second, bottling. How you clean and sanitize your bottles and how you fill them all matter. Through trial and error with a problem similar to yours, I determined that my kitchen sink is really just a big petri dish, no matter how well I thought I cleaned it--and that includes the faucet and aerator. Use unscratched buckets instead. I also "misunderestimated" how many gallons my sink held and was using too little sanitizer. Buckets can help with that too.

You didn't mention it, but just in case: beware the standard garden hose.

Hope you figure it out--it's frustrating to have so much invested in batch after batch and end up with... not exactly good beer.

 

[bracconiere]

pH of about 5.4 prior to mashing

pH prior to mashing

i know i'm an idiot, and you told me not say anything. but that sounds weird? i'm not even sure but, doesn't prior mean before?

did you check the ph 'during' the mash?

 

[mlandon98]

Two things stand out for me from your description.

First is the citric acid. This is used by some as a preservative more than for pH control. Personally, I use lactic acid in mash and phosphoric acid if needed in the boil.

Second, bottling. How you clean and sanitize your bottles and how you fill them all matter. Through trial and error with a problem similar to yours, I determined that my kitchen sink is really just a big petri dish, no matter how well I thought I cleaned it--and that includes the faucet and aerator. Use unscratched buckets instead. I also "misunderestimated" how many gallons my sink held and was using too little sanitizer. Buckets can help with that too.

You didn't mention it, but just in case: beware the standard garden hose.

Hope you figure it out--it's frustrating to have so much invested in batch after batch and end up with... not exactly good beer.

Thanks for the contribution, T. I am open to changing aspects of my brew process and I will try different salts. From what I understand, citric acid has its disadvantages but all weak acids are effective pH adjustors in the ranges that we are dealing with, according to chemistry.

I will try sanitizing in a bucket. I have always used a sink but have not always had this problem (like I said I have lived in different places and used different water) but better safe than sorry. Although, I have never heard anyone say that the taste I have is the result of infection. I think Beermeister's temperature suggestion is still the most likely problem. After all, I know that my ambient temperature has been near-maximum of ideal fermentation temperature within the fermentor.

I would never use a garden hose, I only use equipment recommended by homebrew stores.

I just have this nagging feeling that sanitation is not the issue (I once thought I had an infection but I actually have never have) and I have tried tap water and glacier refill station water with no difference. I hope it is a temperature problem because that seems to be the only variable outside of what is acceptable.

 

[mlandon98]

i know i'm an idiot, and you told me not say anything. but that sounds weird? i'm not even sure but, doesn't prior mean before?

did you check the ph 'during' the mash?

The pH was in the ideal, accepted range of 5.2-5.6 both prior to adding grain and at the end of the mash. pH of the finished product is between 4.2-4.6, as desired. But like I mentioned, I made a beer that had a pH of under 5 before I even added grain and of course grains lower pH to some extent and that beer was the best I have made in probably 7 batches. So the question is still: did the excessive amount of acid in this batch contribute to the improvement in flavor?

 

[bracconiere]

The pH was in the ideal, accepted range of 5.2-5.6 both prior to adding grain and at the end of the mash.

i guess i learned something new! i add grain to water that has a ph of 7 and, after adding the grain it drops to about 5.3....


learn something new everyday!

 

[hotbeer]

Do others describe the taste as a burnt rubber? Might this taste also be described as a sulfur taste?

 

[mlandon98]

i guess i learned something new! i add grain to water that has a ph of 7 and, after adding the grain it drops to about 5.3....


learn something new everyday!

Interesting, if grain lowered the pH so significantly, both of my beers would have been excessively acidic and therefore sour, but they are not. Is the pH of your water always 7.0? The pH scale is exponential. the difference in basicity between a pH of 7.5, say, and 7.9 is much greater than the difference between 7.1 and 7.5 even though the numerical difference is the same. I just pHed both of my water options and one is 8.1 and the other is 8.3. In your experience, is grain enough to lower the pH from 8.0 to 5.6?

 

[bracconiere]

5.2-5.6 both prior to adding grain and at the end of the mash.

not to be a nussance, but when you say 'end of mash'. do mean including the sparge?

edit: speaking of sparge, if you BIAB, is the bag getting scorched? once again, if i knew of a pro forum i could direct you to that charged a fee or something i would.....

 

[bracconiere]

In your experience, is grain enough to lower the pH from 8.0 to 5.6?

damn that be some hard water!

i'd guess probably hit 5.8 or so with water like that. but add your acid after mashing in.

The pH scale is exponential. the difference in basicity between a pH of 7.5, say, and 7.9

i know it's a base 10 logarythmic scale... (still trying to be able to fling pKas, and pKb's and whatever the other one is though)

 

[McMullan]

You took the time to register and become a member on this great forum asking for help. It's not a joke, people here actually try and help , teach and share brewing experiences.

Welcome to HBT. Have a great day

http://www.pencilandspoon.com/2011/06/when-beer-goes-bad-autolysis.html?m=1

As a Marmite lover, just thought I'd mention Marmite tastes nothing like autolysis of yeast cells. Autolysis is an enzyme-driven endogenous process of self destruction in response to stress factors. It transforms beer into rancid, meaty (not the kind you'd want to eat) drain water. Whereas Marmite is lovely. Especially on warm toast with a cup of tea Comparing Marmite with autolysised beer is like comparing a sweet lamb (on a plate) with an exhumed corpse

 

[Jag75]

As a Marmite lover, just thought I'd mention Marmite tastes nothing like autolysis of yeast cells. Autolysis is an enzyme-driven endogenous process of self destruction in response to stress factors. It transforms beer into rancid, meaty (not the kind you'd want to eat) drain water. Whereas Marmite is lovely. Especially on warm toast with a cup of tea Comparing Marmite with autolysised beer is like comparing a sweet lamb (on a plate) with an exhumed corpse

Well I hate lamb too lol

 

[Beermeister32]

Lot to unpack there, looks like everyone has chimed in.

On the fermentation chamber, I use old 4.4 cubic foot Sanyos, you can find them on Craigs list for $75 usually. You will need a separate temp controller, Inkbird or similar.

 

[mlandon98]

Lot to unpack there, looks like everyone has chimed in.

On the fermentation chamber, I use old 4.4 cubic foot Sanyos, you can find them on Craigs list for $75 usually. You will need a separate temp controller, Inkbird or similar.View attachment 766633

I am going to look into the Santos and the Inkbird, thank you. But the Inkbird is a separate apparatus altogether. You can control the temperature of one brand of fridge with a controller from another brand?

 

[Beermeister32]

You basically turn the refrigerator on to maximum cold. Then you attach the temp probe to the carboy.

The controller then turns the refrigerator or off as needed to control the refrigerator temp measured with the temp probe.

So, a refrigerator (mine anyway) can go below freezing up to ambient room temp, whatever you select on the digital control. Sanyos were discontinued a few years back, but there are others available.

 

[mlandon98]

You basically turn the refrigerator on to maximum cold. Then you attach the temp probe to the carboy.

The controller then turns the refrigerator or off as needed to control the refrigerator temp measured with the temp probe.

So, a refrigerator (mine anyway) can go below freezing up to ambient room temp, whatever you select on the digital control. Sanyos were discontinued a few years back, but there are others available.

Sanyos or Santos?

That is great information. This could be a game-changer for me. Have you always used this system?

 

[marc1]

Interesting, if grain lowered the pH so significantly, both of my beers would have been excessively acidic and therefore sour, but they are not. Is the pH of your water always 7.0? The pH scale is exponential. the difference in basicity between a pH of 7.5, say, and 7.9 is much greater than the difference between 7.1 and 7.5 even though the numerical difference is the same. I just pHed both of my water options and one is 8.1 and the other is 8.3. In your experience, is grain enough to lower the pH from 8.0 to 5.6?

The water pH isn't really relevant for the mash. The alkalinity in the water is. Low alkalinity water has little buffering capability, so really small amounts of acid can cause large swings in pH that don't matter to the mash pH.

Depending on the grains you use, they'll generally get your mash pH in the ~5-6 range. The minerals in the water can nudge this - Calcium will bring it down some, alkalinity will bring it up. Brewers add acid to the mash water if they think the mash pH will be too high. If you know your water composition, there are lots of software programs to help estimate mineral/acid additions to brewing water.

Low alkalinity water is preferred for sparging to prevent tannin extraction - acid addition to alkaline sparge water can take care of that.

 

[Beermeister32]

I guess we all go through this process. For me I was at about batch 10 before I figured it out. Best money you will ever spend.

 

[mlandon98]

Brewers add acid to the mash water if they think the mash pH will be too high.

Fortunately I have a pH meter so I can know exactly. Even after adjusting my pH to the appropriate range, I still have the off-flavor. So if I boil and siphon to reduce alkalinity and then also regulate temperature and my beer is still bad, I think I will be out of options except testing my water. But it doesn't make any sense that two separate water sources (tap and glacier station) are producing the same off-flavor.

 

[Beermeister32]

Here’s one of my controllers. I constructed mine before I realized there were commercial units available and were made from Lowes and ebay parts for about $30.

 

[marc1]

Fortunately I have a pH meter so I can know exactly. Even after adjusting my pH to the appropriate range, I still have the off-flavor. So if I boil and siphon to reduce alkalinity and then also regulate temperature and my beer is still bad, I think I will be out of options except testing my water. But it doesn't make any sense that two separate water sources (tap and glacier station) are producing the same off-flavor.

I agree that water seems an unlikely culprit here.

At this point it seems like infection and fermentation temperature are candidates worth looking into.

One avenue of contamination that people miss is valves - do you use any to transfer wort/beer? The one on the bottling bucket got me when I was starting out. I didn't know it could be disassembled, and even though I ran cleaning solution and sanitizer through it, it had some nasty bits inside that required disassembly after every use to thoroughly clean. Another one is the drain valve on the boil kettle. You'd think that the boil would sanitize it enough, but unless it gets disassembled, things can grow in there.

 

[mlandon98]

I agree that water seems an unlikely culprit here.

At this point it seems like infection and fermentation temperature are candidates worth looking into.

One avenue of contamination that people miss is valves - do you use any to transfer wort/beer? The one on the bottling bucket got me when I was starting out. I didn't know it could be disassembled, and even though I ran cleaning solution and sanitizer through it, it had some nasty bits inside that required disassembly after every use to thoroughly clean. Another one is the drain valve on the boil kettle. You'd think that the boil would sanitize it enough, but unless it gets disassembled, things can grow in there.

My beer is not contaminated. A couple dozen batches and no funny coloration, oily sheen, or mold. Not to mention if it was infection, the taste would probably change from batch to batch and state to state (I have now had this problem in NY and NM). I am almost convinced that it is a temperature problem, but then again I was convinced that it was a pH problem before.

 

[marc1]

My beer is not contaminated. A couple dozen batches and no funny coloration, oily sheen, or mold. Not to mention if it was infection, the taste would probably change from batch to batch and state to state (I have now had this problem in NY and NM). I am almost convinced that it is a temperature problem, but then again I was convinced that it was a pH problem before.

Temperature could be it, but I would think that you would be able to taste it at bottling, if that was the case. Still worth pursuing, though.

Funny coloration, oily sheen, and mold are not necessarily there for a contaminated batch.

Let's try to rule things out - are you using the same equipment for all of these batches?

 

[mlandon98]

Temperature could be it, but I would think that you would be able to taste it at bottling, if that was the case. Still worth pursuing, though.

Funny coloration, oily sheen, and mold are not necessarily there for a contaminated batch.

Let's try to rule things out - are you using the same equipment for all of these batches?

It's a good point that I don't taste it at bottling. But then again I know that my fermentation temperature must've been at least 70F, and probably more, because room temperature averages 65F in my house and the max temperature of the safale yeast I have been using is 68F.

Also, I had two batches ferment in the same room. One batch was in a single carboy and the other was split between two carboys yet the flavor was decided by the batch. Of course they were also both at the same temperature but one was darker which means it would succeed better in hiding off-flavors

I mostly use the same equipment every time. Carboys, stoppers, and airlocks do change though. I soak my hose in sanitizer for a long time and sanitize my bottling equipment two or three times.

 

[marc1]

It's a good point that I don't taste it at bottling. But then again I know that my fermentation temperature must've been at least 70F, and probably more, because room temperature averages 65F in my house and the max temperature of the safale yeast I have been using is 68F.

Also, I had two batches ferment in the same room. One batch was in a single carboy and the other was split between two carboys yet the flavor was decided by the batch. Of course they were also both at the same temperature but one was darker which means it would succeed better in hiding off-flavors

I mostly use the same equipment every time. Carboys, stoppers, and airlocks do change though. I soak my hose in sanitizer for a long time and sanitize my bottling equipment two or three times.

Do you use a bottling bucket with a spigot or a bottling wand for all of the batches? If contamination has taken root in plastic, it can be very difficult to get rid of. Does your kettle use a ball valve?

 

[mlandon98]

Do you use a bottling bucket with a spigot or a bottling wand for all of the batches? If contamination has taken root in plastic, it can be very difficult to get rid of. Does your kettle use a ball valve?

No valves, I siphon. It is easier to keep a hose clean than it is to keep a hose and spigot clean. Although my bottling bucket has to use a spigot of course which I clean thoroughly and run sanitizer through each time after soaking in sanitizer and I do not use a bottling wand anymore. I find it hard to believe that a bucket which has been completely covered in sanitizer will have surviving contamination from the last batch.

I appreciate you trying to get to the bottom of this with me but my sanitation practices haven't changed since previous successes and I don't think we'll have an "Aha!" moment about my sanitation. But, before my next batch I will fill my bottling bucket with hot water and soap for a couple days to clean the bucket and drown anything that needs an aerobic environment. How do you feel about wiping equipment down with rubbing alcohol?

 

[Tom R]

Perhaps your sanitation process has been marginal all along?
I wouldn't count on hot water and soap.

Are you using an acid sanitzer? Bleach? Idaphor? These are effective when used properly.

 

[mlandon98]

Perhaps your sanitation process has been marginal all along?
I wouldn't count on hot water and soap.

Are you using an acid sanitzer? Bleach? Idaphor? These are effective when used properly.

I have never heard of anyone who uses just soap nor anyone who doesn't use a homebrew-store-bought sanitizer like Starsan

 

[homebeerbrewer]

I started reading the thread, but decided not to. I don’t do any water chemistry, I use spring water from a local spring, and I usually get good results. That being said, your issue has nothing to do with the water chemistry, it’s your fermentation temp. It’s too high. A small chest freezer, or as mentioned, a mini fridge with a temp controller will allow you to keep fermentation temp down where it should be. Once you get the equipment, tape the temp probe to the side of the fermenter During fermentation. If its a plastic bucket, taping the probe won’t help much, but it’s better than having it dangle in the air.

 

[mlandon98]

I started reading the thread, but decided not to. I don’t do any water chemistry, I use spring water from a local spring, and I usually get good results. That being said, your issue has nothing to do with the water chemistry, it’s your fermentation temp. It’s too high. A small chest freezer, or as mentioned, a mini fridge with a temp controller will allow you to keep fermentation temp down where it should be. Once you get the equipment, tape the temp probe to the side of the fermenter During fermentation. If its a plastic bucket, taping the probe won’t help much, but it’s better than having it dangle in the air.

I am glad to see that you're so sure about the temperature issue because that is the fix I am settling in on now. Did you have a similar problem to mine at one point?

 

[Tom R]

before my next batch I will fill my bottling bucket with hot water and soap for a couple days to clean the bucket and drown anything that needs an aerobic environment.

Glad to hear you are doing more than just that.

 

[marc1]

No valves, I siphon. It is easier to keep a hose clean than it is to keep a hose and spigot clean. Although my bottling bucket has to use a spigot of course which I clean thoroughly and run sanitizer through each time after soaking in sanitizer and I do not use a bottling wand anymore. I find it hard to believe that a bucket which has been completely covered in sanitizer will have surviving contamination from the last batch.

I appreciate you trying to get to the bottom of this with me but my sanitation practices haven't changed since previous successes and I don't think we'll have an "Aha!" moment about my sanitation. But, before my next batch I will fill my bottling bucket with hot water and soap for a couple days to clean the bucket and drown anything that needs an aerobic environment. How do you feel about wiping equipment down with rubbing alcohol?

I don't use rubbing alcohol. I do switch it up sometimes between StarSan and Iodophor in case there's something that's resistant to one or the other.

Filling the bucket with soapy water for several days doesn't seem like it would be helping much to me.

One last question - do you disassemble the spigot on your bottling bucket to clean it?

 

[mlandon98]

I don't use rubbing alcohol. I do switch it up sometimes between StarSan and Iodophor in case there's something that's resistant to one or the other.

Filling the bucket with soapy water for several days doesn't seem like it would be helping much to me.

One last question - do you disassemble the spigot on your bottling bucket to clean it?

Normally I do take my spigot apart. The last two times I actually haven't with no change, I will make sure to do that next time though. Soapy water would help because it would loosen any residue that microbes may be clinging onto/trapped underneath of.

 

[PCABrewing]

I do not have taste buds unique to our species. I am quite certain other people taste the same thing.

Taste buds are only a fraction of the perception of taste and it is not uncommon at all for people to experience a taste differently.
Have you tried comparing your brew to a close commercial version, do you perceive the taste in only your brew?
Also, you mention you didn't taste at bottling. That might be a good tool for isolating the origin of the off taste.
Try tasting Strike water, First Wort, Boiled wort, cooled wort into the fermentor and just after pitching pre-ferment. You might be able to identify when it is introduced and that will help narrow the scope of the investigation.