Raw Ale / No Boil

[applescrap]

Once again in considering stability, its worth noting that this style is not new at all and has a rich history. I think this person has done a lot of writing on this style. I agree with his conclusions. I will be Brewing a stout as well soon. I think I'm going to shoot for an 1.5 hour brewday. Taking my normal 2.5 and making it 1.5. Or maybe ten gallons in 2?

http://www.garshol.priv.no/blog/331.html

 

[Miraculix]

Tried my raw dark mild yesterday. After one day naturally carbonation on top of the radiator

It wasn't fully carbonated, but let's call it 2/3.

It was a tiny bit too bitter for my taste. Don't know if it is hop or dark malt related, but I guess the latter. Well, it is as green as it can be, I think 6 days after being malt, yeast and water.

Regarding the fact that this beer is a 3% session beer, it is amazing. It is full of flavour with a nice mouth feel. I do not know if the reason can be found in the fact that it is raw, or in the recipe with 20%flaked barley plus amber, brown and chocolate malt.

I will keep you updated when I am back from my three weeks of travelling, starting this Saturday.

 

[Miraculix]

Once again in considering stability, its worth noting that this style is not new at all and has a rich history. I think this person has done a lot of writing on this style. I agree with his conclusions. I will be Brewing a stout as well soon. I think I'm going to shoot for an 1.5 hour brewday. Taking my normal 2.5 and making it 1.5. Or maybe ten gallons in 2?

http://www.garshol.priv.no/blog/331.html

Just read the link. Maybe my raw Pilsener does not suffer from an infection but from the breakdown of the proteins. Who knows... I think I brewed it around two months ago and it started to taste funny roughly 6 weeks after brewing it. I forgot to empty the leftover bottles yesterday, maybe I will keep a few, just to see how it develops further.

 

[Killshakes]

Some myths that people should know that I am extremely confident in now:


3. Using whirlfloc completely clears the beer, even at 165 degrees.

I think this might be the most interesting revelation in this thread--to me, anyway. It makes me wonder about the recommended boiling times for WF. Could it be that WF would be much more effective when powdered and added to wort (boiled or not) around 170 F, instead of boiled for however long? I'd be very curious to see how well this works in a standard, boiled beer.

 

[rubyroo]

I am going to look into that blog later. Im curious if whirlfloc and/or gelatin could get the beer clear and improve stability. If the beer did not have as much haze (read: proteins in suspension) it might have the same longevity as a regular boiled ale. Not sure about the whirlfloc efficacy.

 

[rubyroo]

Applescrap, I have read this article and it actually says quite directly that raw ale lack shelf stability.

"The protein never does get removed. That seems to be at least part of why many of these beers have poor stability."

It seems to be fairly well documented that raw ale and hazy beers lack the shelf stability of their boiled and or pasteurized counterparts. Im curious as to whether whirlfloc or other finings might be able to mitigate this.

 

[Miraculix]

My girlfriend likes her room very warm. Did store some beers in there for a couple of weeks, those turned bad, were not tasting nice any more.

I thought the batch was lost and wanted to throw away the rest I stored at home in a cooler room, those actually were tasting really nice now.... So temperature seems to play a big role... Just hints, no actual prove.

 

[applescrap]

@rubyroo That is good to know. Since I am trying to drink less I wont make 10g and only make 5 at a time. Stored cold I would hope the beer would last a month or two, no? I am never to worried about stability as I have never aged a beer.

 

[applescrap]

It seems like a good experiment for brulosophy to make two raw ales and age one. I have to admit this pumpkin is aging quickly. Seemingly getting darker, but also better?

 

[Beerswimmer]

I wonder if high acid will help with the shelf life? I brewed 3 kettle sours(L. plantarum) a while back, all no boils. One is bottled and will sit until Xmas before really drinking, tastes good so far a month + after brew day. 2 others are still on fruit. They also all have a few strains of brett in them. Planning on brewing another tomorrow the same way.

 

[rubyroo]

I think they should last for a month atleast. Maybe two. I have also never really had anything sit around for very long. I'm curious what actually happens when these beers go bad. Do they actually taste horrible or just kinda off?

That would be a good Bruloshophy experiment but he has so many on the books already I imagine and only so much time.

I imagine a low pH would act as a preservative as it does in most foods. Also Brett usually cleans up off flavours and limits oxygen exposure. I currently have a mixed mixed sacc and Brett fermentation going on a raw ale. I'm going to let it sit in primary for about a month or so and I think it should be fine. My only concern is how long it should be in contact with the hops. I know a month will be fine. But if it doesn' seem to be at terminal gravity it may take longer.

I will report back when I have results.

 

[SanPancho]

has anybody come up with a good rule of thumb or way to do a bitterness calculation? i raise my wort to 175 -180, so i should get some ibus, but i'm wondering if there is a way to have a better idea what i'll end up with as opposed to just doing a wild ass guess. dont want to put a ton of hops in there either as only doing 3 gallons or so at a time.

 

[rubyroo]

I haven't found anything definitive.. the traditional thinking is that anything under 180 adds zero IBU's but I can confirm it will certainly add some bitterness as I have never gone above 170f for a raw ale. For 1 gallon I used 2 oz of Saaz and 1 oz of Perle. The bitterness was apparent but subtle. Generally from what I've seen people tend to use quite a bit more hops or do a long hop stand. If you used some high AAU hops you could probably use much less... But certainly more than your average buttering charge due to the lack of isomerization temps. My most recent was 1 oz of Nelson Sauvin for 1 gal at 12 or so AAU, hopstand at 170f for 30 min. Not sure how that one turned out just yet. Unless you can dig up something a little more scientific you might just have to wing it and adjust based on experience.

 

[Miraculix]

has anybody come up with a good rule of thumb or way to do a bitterness calculation? i raise my wort to 175 -180, so i should get some ibus, but i'm wondering if there is a way to have a better idea what i'll end up with as opposed to just doing a wild ass guess. dont want to put a ton of hops in there either as only doing 3 gallons or so at a time.

I always brew hop teas in water on the side with a volume of 1/3 of the final beer volume. You can use the beersmith online calculator for this. Just hack in 1.0 for the gravity and the correct boil volume.

 

[SanPancho]

im not interested in running separate boils.

 

[SanPancho]

i think maybe what i'll do is that next time i'll run numbers as if i was doing a normal 60 min boil. use high alpha bittering hop in the calcs. come brewday, take it and double the amount of hops. i throw them in as a sort of FWH once mash is done, they ride up to 175/180 and then they hang with the rest of the hop additions. i dont think it'd be too far off of an hour's time in total. plus a little more during cooldown.

and then one of these days if i can remember i'll stop by white labs and drop a bottle off and get the IBUs calc'd. just for curiousity's sake.

 

[cmac62]

Yea the one no boil I did I used a hop tea, but I didn't use 1/3 of the final vol, I used about 4 cups water and bolied for about 20 mins. Turned out good and you don't have to feel like your doing two full boils.

 

[applescrap]

I used 2 cups of water and ibu calculator.

 

[beersk]

What about boiling off SMS precursors and DMS in the final beer? Not sure if I read about that in the earlier part of the thread or not.

I'm thinking of doing this on a hefeweizen, mash low oxygen, vorlauf, add FWH, and bring up to 180F for 10 or 15 minutes with some more hops and add whirlfloc at maybe 5 minutes left of the heating phase. The chiller would be in there from the beginning to pasteurize that as well. Then chill and finish the rest of the brew session as normal.

 

[phyllobeddo]

http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Dimethyl_Sulfide

SMM Precursor
The primary source for DMS in beer (as well as cooked vegetables) is caused by the decomposition of SMM into DMS. This decomposition is caused by heat above ~80°C.

There's a lot to read on this link about DMS. I don't have time to sort through it all right now, but maybe that's worth a read.

 

[beersk]

http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Dimethyl_Sulfide

SMM Precursor
The primary source for DMS in beer (as well as cooked vegetables) is caused by the decomposition of SMM into DMS. This decomposition is caused by heat above ~80°C.

There's a lot to read on this link about DMS. I don't have time to sort through it all right now, but maybe that's worth a read.

Whoops, I meant SMM and absentmindedly typed SMS. Thanks for the link. I normally do a 60 minute boil for everything and don't pick up any DMS in finished beers, even helles with all pils malt and low o2 brewing method. No boil though...I'd be worried. Perhaps it wouldn't present itself in a hefe where the yeast esters and phenolics will be dominant.

 

[cmac62]

I'm going to put one of my no boil scotch ales into the fridge tonight to see how it is aging. One thing I noticed when trying them before was the no boil was way clearer than the traditional boiled beer and I did no WF in either. I'll let ya'll know how my NB beer is aging in the next couple of days

 

[Miraculix]

I witnessed now a reduced shelf stability in the third no boil ale in a row. All ales are pretty nice and tasty when they are younger but after two to three weeks they really fall down the hill... After one month, my raw dark mild has the same "wrong" flavour that my Pilsener also developed after one month. It just is not fun to drink anymore, will have to throw it away.

It is not caused by infection, as I renewed my complete equipment in between the batches and did use good sanitation practice. My boiled beers also do not develop this type of flavour.

I guess it is somehow connected to the huge amounts of dissolved proteins in the unboiled wort, which might fall apart and change the flavour.

I will stick to boiled beers in the future as I do not drink that much and don't want to be forced to throw away more beer.

If you are preparing for a party or if you are doing really small batches, it could make sense to keep it raw.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

All ales are pretty nice and tasty when they are younger but after two to three weeks they really fall down the hill... After one month, my raw dark mild has the same "wrong" flavour that my Pilsener also developed after one month. It just is not fun to drink anymore, will have to throw it away.

It is not caused by infection, as I renewed my complete equipment in between the batches and did use good sanitation practice....I guess it is somehow connected to the huge amounts of dissolved proteins in the unboiled wort, which might fall apart and change the flavour.

My first thought, especially given the timings, was maybe some kind of autolysis. Are they still on the yeast at the time they fall apart?

Otherwise - have you tried aggressive fining?

 

[Miraculix]

My first thought, especially given the timings, was maybe some kind of autolysis. Are they still on the yeast at the time they fall apart?

Otherwise - have you tried aggressive fining?

It has nothing to do with the yeast I guess as my boiled beers don't have those problems and I treat those the same way and use the same yeast. Also, the 3 to 4 weeks time were meant after priming in the bottles has finished. Aggressive fining might remove the proteins, but maybe also the flavour? Don't know, never fined...

I think it is like those old school kveiks, which were mostly also raw. Just meant to be drunken fast.

 

[Beerswimmer]

My no boil sours have been very successful. Today I will be making another and racking straight from the mashtun into the ferment bucket. Skipping the pasteurization step all together. I'll let it cool on it's own, then add Sour Weapon to it for a few days before pitching yeast and bretts. If it starts to smell bad I'll add some hops.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

It has nothing to do with the yeast I guess as my boiled beers don't have those problems and I treat those the same way and use the same yeast. Also, the 3 to 4 weeks time were meant after priming in the bottles has finished. Aggressive fining might remove the proteins, but maybe also the flavour? Don't know, never fined...

I think it is like those old school kveiks, which were mostly also raw. Just meant to be drunken fast.

I'd probably agree with the latter, but that doesn't mean you can't analyse why they're falling apart. And fining is surely worth a go?

And you can''t say it's "nothing to do with the yeast" - there could be some factor that doesn't normally survive the boil, that does bad things to the yeast. Yeast are like us, they are vulnerable to bacteria and viruses.

 

[Miraculix]

I'd probably agree with the latter, but that doesn't mean you can't analyse why they're falling apart. And fining is surely worth a go?

And you can''t say it's "nothing to do with the yeast" - there could be some factor that doesn't normally survive the boil, that does bad things to the yeast. Yeast are like us, they are vulnerable to bacteria and viruses.

Well, yes you are right. It is just a wild guess from my side... I am at a point now where I feel very vulnerable, because I do not have any easy drinking homebrew left

... In other words, first priority is to change that with a nice and medium hoppy pale ale

On the side I will brew a few 1gallon batches to get to know the roasted malts better. Basically pilsner base malt plus 10% chocolate, or roasted barley, or Amber, or brown,each of them with a little bittering hops and no aroma hops.

But all will be boiled I am afraid.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Well, yes you are right. It is just a wild guess from my side... I am at a point now where I feel very vulnerable, because I do not have any easy drinking homebrew left

The family cleaned you out then? If you're looking for something to fill the gap, a week ago the Thatcham Waitrose still had some of the Fuller collaboration boxes, lurking among the lager slabs for some reason...

On the side I will brew a few 1gallon batches to get to know the roasted malts better. Basically pilsner base malt plus 10% chocolate, or roasted barley, or Amber, or brown,each of them with a little bittering hops and no aroma hops.

But all will be boiled I am afraid.

The Malt Miller in Swindon used to do malt taster packs, but they seem to have disappeared in the new version of the website. They might be able to do something if you went in person? If you're doing tasters, Brewstore in Edinburgh sell most speciality grains by the 10g (and they're also good for the rarer White Labs yeasts, I've got some WLP515 among other things on order from them)

It might also make sense to get some isomerised alpha extract for this kind of thing and any future raw/quick brews you do - saves having to do a long boil and it costs about the same as the equivalent in bittering hops.

 

[Miraculix]

The family cleaned you out then? If you're looking for something to fill the gap, a week ago the Thatcham Waitrose still had some of the Fuller collaboration boxes, lurking among the lager slabs for some reason...



The Malt Miller in Swindon used to do malt taster packs, but they seem to have disappeared in the new version of the website. They might be able to do something if you went in person? If you're doing tasters, Brewstore in Edinburgh sell most speciality grains by the 10g (and they're also good for the rarer White Labs yeasts, I've got some WLP515 among other things on order from them)

It might also make sense to get some isomerised alpha extract for this kind of thing and any future raw/quick brews you do - saves having to do a long boil and it costs about the same as the equivalent in bittering hops.

Have you been sneaking around in Thatcham? Thanks for the tip, I will have a look at it later today.

The malt Miller is my favourite online store, I didn't know that they were actually that close to me. But I already have everything here to brew the test darks, just needed additional base malt,which I now got as well, I got it from the Edinburgh shop you mentioned . I brewed a lot of stouts, so I have a lot of dark leftover malts and grains flying around.

The alpha extract idea is great, but I got an opened pack of admiral, which I will use to keep it from getting too old.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Have you been sneaking around in Thatcham? Thanks for the tip, I will have a look at it later today.

The malt Miller is my favourite online store, I didn't know that they were actually that close to me. But I already have everything here to brew the test darks, just needed additional base malt,which I now got as well, I got it from the Edinburgh shop you mentioned . I brewed a lot of stouts, so I have a lot of dark leftover malts and grains flying around.

The alpha extract idea is great, but I got an opened pack of admiral, which I will use to keep it from getting too old.

All part of the service as your personal shopper! They also had Fuller's Vintage, but since that was in the main ale bottle section it was going rather quicker (helped by yours truly...)

Yep, TMM are just by the Post Office depot on the east side of Swindon. You're pretty well off round there, you've also got BrewUK just north of Salisbury who probably have the best stock of hops (particularly European ones) and yeast, although TMM get a bit geekier on the malt side. BrewUK carry both Wyeast and White Labs, and have most of the Yeast Bays (like Brewstore), but they're the only place I've seen Omega and Giga in the UK. They also do a cute deal where they sell off past-date liquid yeasts at 5 of their choice for a tenner, which is a pretty good deal particularly if you want to get into Brett etc. (no affiliation etc etc)

 

[applescrap]

I havent brewed again because I still have pumpkin and marzen on tap. The pumpkin is now aging so I'll update on how the no boil aging is going. Because the pumpkin was raw from the can I think that plays a role. The next no-boil I am going to make is Founders Breakfast Stout. So I will let you know how it goes too. Hope some other people can post no boil results.

 

[Miraculix]

Sry for OT (the last one, at least till the next one )

The family cleaned you out then? If you're looking for something to fill the gap, a week ago the Thatcham Waitrose still had some of the Fuller collaboration boxes, lurking among the lager slabs for some reason...

Got one of those, thx for the tip! The Stout is pretty nice and the ESB was also quite nice. Really drinkable stuff! A bit high in alcohol though.... but who cares

Skol!

 

[cmac62]

I'm going to put one of my no boil scotch ales into the fridge tonight to see how it is aging. One thing I noticed when trying them before was the no boil was way clearer than the traditional boiled beer and I did no WF in either. I'll let ya'll know how my NB beer is aging in the next couple of days

Sorry for the late reply, but I have not noticed any degradation as my Scottish ales have aged. They have been in the bottle for a couple of months at this time.

 

[Miraculix]

But they were stored in the fridge, correct?

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Got one of those, thx for the tip! The Stout is pretty nice and the ESB was also quite nice. Really drinkable stuff! A bit high in alcohol though.... but who cares

Skol!

This is why I've got a backlog of beers, I got my box before Christmas and have only had the Marble NZ saison so far! (which is lovely, but I clearly need to up my drinking game...)

 

[cmac62]

But they were stored in the fridge, correct?

No, room temps.

 

[troglodytes]

I just threw my hat into the no-boil ring. This was a split second decision as I was beginning my mash. I've read about raw ales, and scoured MTF in the past; as well as brewing some kettle sours where I have seen this is an option so I figured a little experiment might work in my favor. Ultimately I wanted to create a spring/summer sour farmhouse ale that is no hop until a heavy citra dry hop post fermentation. The recipe was as follows:

SG: 1.042
FG: 1.004 (my estimate)
Batch size: 6.5 gallons

7# 2-Row
1# Rye
1# Red Wheat

Water treatments to get 5.4 mash pH
Mash 60 min @ 156F
Mashout @ 172F (attempt to extract tannins)
Sparge @ 172F (attempt to extract tannins)
Heated 6.5 gal to 180F
Chilled to 90F
Pre-acidified wort to 4.5pH
Transferred to fermenter with Lacto harvested from dregs of Allagash Coolship / Nightshift Passionweisse (~50B cells)
Naturally chilled to 68F over 8 hours
Pitched Brett harvested from Allagash Hive 56 / Nightshift Vesuvius (~50B cells)
Pitched starter of WY3711 (~150B cells)

I wanted to create an environment that the 3711 couldn't just rip through like it usually does, as well as giving the lacto a head start to establish itself with no sacch or brett to step in the way. I was trying to extract some tannins and went with a no-boil in hopes that lots of proteins and graininess remained for the mixed fermentation. Here's hoping I didn't screw anything up as, like I said, this was a spur of the moment decision after I had already started the batch. As of right now I've started to ramp up the temp in my fermemntation chamber which currently smells like pizza dough and lemonade...so I'm kinda stoked as to how this is going to turn out.

If you see any part of my process that I really shouldn't have done feel free to let me know so that if this thing goes south, I may have an idea on the culprit. If this turns out to be the greatest thing ever, I'll let you know so you can copy it.

 

[Miraculix]

I guess there is a good chance that the lactos will overpower every yeast and that you will end up with a sour that is just wayyyy too sour. At the end you will be able to blend it of course, with a non sour for example. But I think giving the souring guys a head start, zero hops to keep them under control and then no boil after souring reached the expected intensity might result in a really really sour brew.

Also, 180F is too high. DMS is build in this temperature range and if not boiled off afterwards, will cause troubles.

 

[troglodytes]

I was wondering about the dms, but not until after i had heated it up. We'll see what happens. Next time I won't heat to 180. Won't the Brett break down the dms over time, though?

As for it being too sour, I figured given only 8 hours before the 3711 pitch wouldn't be enough to cause runaway sourness, but you may be right. Well, fingers crossed.