Fermentis BR-8 dry Brettanomyces Experiences

[G_robertus]

I've actually done a similar one regarding no additional sugars. I've added br8 to a lager (which somehow was infected with something clove producing). There were bottles with br8 added together with the priming sugar and bottles which had their br8 additions after carbonation finished, without adding any additional sugars. The ones that never saw any additional sugar created only the slightest funk whereas the ones that had their br8 together with a dose of priming sugars turned full blown br8 funky.

I've done the same with a 7% stout which was fermented with Whitbread 2 and had a higher fg than anticipated. In that case, both types of additions turned funky, but the ones that were added together with sugar clearly developed more br8funk.

And they didn't get to the same levels of funk over time? I'm curious to see what will happen with my test.

Am I correct in my understanding that this brett if used at bottling a beer fermented with a maltotriose capable yeast will only eat the priming sugar?
While ordinary brett can consume longer chain sugars and dextrins(with Brittish or brett C being slightly less agressive) this one behaves like an attenuative cerevisae in this regard

It is basically like using any medium-highly attenuating yeast, like Chico, Nottingham or most Belgian yeasts. I'm not sure if BR-8 eats the priming sugar before the other yeast get the chance to, but it appears priming sugar does play a role in the expression of yeast character.

 

[Miraculix]

And they didn't get to the same levels of funk over time? I'm curious to see what will happen with my test.

It is basically like using any medium-highly attenuating yeast, like Chico, Nottingham or most Belgian yeasts. I'm not sure if BR-8 eats the priming sugar before the other yeast get the chance to, but it appears priming sugar does play a role in the expression of yeast character.

They did not change over time, at least the pale lager did not. The Stout did change a little bit, but not as much as the bottles where priming sugar and BR 8 were added together.

The stout had more esters before pitching BR 8 due to the whitbread strain. The lager didn't have much esters, it only had phenols.

Still, biggest difference seems to make the availability of fermentables.

 

[G_robertus]

They did not change over time, at least the pale lager did not. The Stout did change a little bit, but not as much as the bottles where priming sugar and BR 8 were added together.

The stout had more esters before pitching BR 8 due to the whitbread strain. The lager didn't have much esters, it only had phenols.

Still, biggest difference seems to make the availability of fermentables.

I'll keep this updated as it goes, but I added BR-8 to a sour Saison and Belgian that have pretty much finished fermentation. I'm also fermenting something in a carboy that previously had BR-8 in it to see if it is more persistent than regular yeast when using my normal cleaning routine.

 

[Miraculix]

I'll keep this updated as it goes, but I added BR-8 to a sour Saison and Belgian that have pretty much finished fermentation. I'm also fermenting something in a carboy that previously had BR-8 in it to see if it is more persistent than regular yeast when using my normal cleaning routine.

All great data points, thank you!

 

[YeastFace]

Any updates @G_robertus?

I should have a pack coming from Czech Rep. soon. Planning on co-pitching with Belle Saison.

 

[G_robertus]

Sorry it's been a while. I haven't tasted the 100% BR-8 RIS in a while, but I might get around to that this weekend. Last I checked they carbonated very slowly, so I just kind of forgot about them. I did give some away for Christmas and they got decent reviews (mainly 'interesting' and 'different').

I don't like how the 100% BR-8 mild has aged. After some time it gets too weird, the foam is terrible and the beer more tart than I'd like. It isn't bad, but it's not that good either and somewhat disappointing. The tripel with BR-8 at bottling also has somewhat poor foam, but that's likely due to the amount of honey. It's also not as tart and much more enjoyable.

My pseudo-lambic (co-pitch of Philly Sour, Lallemand Abbaye, Belle Saison and BR-8) has sat for a while as well. The beer has developed much less character than I'd hoped, but there definitely is some. I hope it gets stronger by the time I bottle it. I plan on dividing, packaging and blending some soon. The beer lacks complexity you'd normally expect, and I've tried to work around that by adding an acid blend which has definitely helped. My plan now is to dry hop some, age 25-50% on fruit and blend or bottle the rest. I have some actual spontaneous fermented beers that might benefit from a slightly less funky but still decent and sour beer added into it. I hope packaging brings out some more character as well. I'm still considering adding extra yeast by then as it's been a while since I brewed it. Maybe I'll first see how the dry hopped portion holds up.

Edit: I almost forgot the part on sanitation. I noticed the vessel I had used for my 100% beers did develop a film on an unrelated test beer after a warm wash and mild hydroxide treatment. I've also noticed bottles that have been washed warm (but not hot) sometimes also display unexpected characters after a while. Since then I've changed to hot cleaning/pasteurisation and that has seemed to take care of the issue. Now I clean most of my bottles either warmer or for a prolonged period of time at slightly lower temperatures. I didn't do a pH test on the cleaning solutions, so I don't really know the tolerance range. Anecdotal evidence is that I sometimes make my Star San solutions around pH 2.5; but I'm not sure it's always that low and whether that even is low enough. I might do acid stress tests later if I feel like it.

TL;Dr this stuff can be quite persistent when using PBW-like products and Star San, but also even mild NaOH treatments.

 

[Miraculix]

Sorry it's been a while. I haven't tasted the RIS in a while, but I might get around to that this weekend. Last I checked they carbonated very slowly, so I just kind of forgot about them. I did give some away for Christmas and they got decent reviews (mainly 'interesting' and 'different').

I don't like how the mild has aged. After some time it gets too weird, the foam is terrible and the beer more tart than I'd like. It isn't bad, but it's not that good either and somewhat disappointing. The tripel also has somewhat poor foam, but that's likely due to the amount of honey. It's also not as tart and much more enjoyable.

My pseudo-lambic has sat for a while as well. The beer has developed much less character than I'd hoped, but there definitely is some. I hope it gets stronger by the time I bottle it. I plan on dividing, packaging and blending some soon. The beer lacks complexity you'd normally expect, and I've tried to work around that by adding an acid blend which has definitely helped. My plan now is to dry hop some, age 25-50% on fruit and blend or bottle the rest. I have some actual spontaneous fermented beers that might benefit from a slightly less funky but still decent and sour beer added into it. I hope packaging brings out some more character as well. I'm still considering adding extra yeast by then as it's been a while since I brewed it. Maybe I'll first see how the dry hopped portion holds up.

Edit: I almost forgot the part on sanitation. I noticed the vessel I had used for my 100% beers did develop a film on an unrelated test beer after a warm wash and mild hydroxide treatment. I've also noticed bottles that have been washed warm (but not hot) sometimes also display unexpected characters after a while. Since then I've changed to hot cleaning/pasteurisation and that has seemed to take care of the issue. Now I clean most of my bottles either warmer or for a prolonged period of time at slightly lower temperatures. I didn't do a pH test on the cleaning solutions, so I don't really know the tolerance range. Anecdotal evidence is that I sometimes make my Star San solutions around pH 2.5; but I'm not sure it's always that low and whether that even is low enough. I might do acid stress tests later if I feel like it.

TL;Dr this stuff can be quite persistent when using PBW-like products and Star San, but also even mild NaOH treatments.

Whicj of these beers have br8 in it? Is the cleaning problem connected to br 8?

 

[G_robertus]

Whicj of these beers have br8 in it? Is the cleaning problem connected to br 8?

All of them, including one where it wasn't supposed to be there but I'd used the vessel as a test with some extra wort. It also ended up in a dunkelweizen via the bottles. Haven't had the issue since I blasted the bottles with heat. Cleaning at 69-70°C works well enough if you keep them at that temperature. 60-65°C and leaving them on the counter after filling was not enough. At first I was scared and first put them in a 80°C water bath, but it seems that was a bit excessive. It won't hurt a glass carboy after a brew line this though and you might want to be safe rather than sorry. Please do note that heat and glass can be very dangerous and only attempt to do this when you are absolutely sure about what you're doing.

 

[Miraculix]

All of them, including one where it wasn't supposed to be there but I'd used the vessel as a test with some extra wort. It also ended up in a dunkelweizen via the bottles. Haven't had the issue since I blasted the bottles with heat. Cleaning at 69-70°C works well enough if you keep them at that temperature. 60-65°C and leaving them on the counter after filling was not enough. At first I was scared and first put them in a 80°C water bath, but it seems that was a bit excessive. It won't hurt a glass carboy after a brew line this though and you might want to be safe rather than sorry. Please do note that heat and glass can be very dangerous and only attempt to do this when you are absolutely sure about what you're doing.

Thanks for the clarification! I personally only use 5l glass carboys for long term aging of higher abv stuff, otherwise I stick to pet. The speidel that I use can be rinsed with boiling water (not according to the manual, but empirically, yes they can) and that's what I do directly before filling them with wort.

After each ferment they get cleaned with an oxiclean type cleaner. This combination does the job for me. Never had any carry overs through this.

My br-8 bretted Victorian-ish stouts really improve with age. One starts to be quite enjoyable now.

I'm going to bottle my other brown stout which has been aged for about a year on Bret as soon as I find the time. One version had Bret clausenii only and the other one has clausenii plus br8.

 

[G_robertus]

Do you use Brett in recipes similar to Ron Pattinson's recipes? I've never tried anything like that, but it sounds interesting. Might do that to save something else that I've got going.

I'm also very happy to say that I don't regret not dumping the BR-8 mild. I tried a bottle yesterday and the flavour has really turned around. It seems like there is a weird curve in the flavour profile that goes up, then dips very hard and slowly climbs up again. Head also seems better and acidity is also less intense now. I've noticed that in other people's beers as well.

 

[cesaruiz]

I've got a little update on my beers and experiences as well. The 100% BR-8 mild has developed some carbonation, but much slower than the tripel that was dosed with BR-8 at bottling. This made me hypothesise that the carbonation was not due to BR-8, but the Abbaye strain and the funk followed from other precursors. Especially since the ester profile changed so drastically as well, but the whole process might be a bit more complex than I thought. However, @Miraculix's experience seems to suggest that this statement is both untrue and true. Schrödinger's yeast, perhaps? I was planning on doing an additional experiment to test this though, by adding BR-8 directly to the fermenter of a beer fermented dry with something like Belle Saison and sampling over the course of a few months. If it doesn't work, I'll add sugar and blend the whole thing up and bottle it to see if that will cause some funk to arise.

I also made a BR-8 IPA this week using my home-dried BR-8 flakes. I was not sure whether this would work, but I dried them like I would kveik yeast in the oven. I pitched about 10-12 grams in 5 liters. I rehydrated the flakes in hopped boiled wort that I diluted and cooled down. There was definitely something happening in the cup I pitched the yeast into, and it looked like a very yeasty bunch in there after 30 minutes. After I pitched the beer (a bit on the hot side, admittedly) I did see CO2 arising from the beer already, but it did not take off as fast as you would expect a kveik beer for example. 12 hours later it was still not very exciting. 36 hours later it was raging away though. I was scared it wouldn't take off and was prepared to pitch ale yeast to save the hoppy character at least, but it seems that was not necessary. I'll let this go for at least a week, maybe two and might dry hop it as well. Very excited about this as well. I noticed I did not record my hopping rates all too well, as I needed some Zeus in another recipe and I apparently did not save the changes, so this is a guestimate. Too bad, because the post-boil wort was amazing and I need to make this again.
Next up is the Strong Ale test.

The recipe for the IPA I just brewed:

Name: BR-IP8
OG (calculated; actual): 1.059; 1.055
FG (calculated; actual): 1.011; unknown
Boil time: 30 minutes
Colour: 17 EBC
IBU: 54 (Tinsenth)

Malts:
1.0 kg Munton's Maris Otter (8 EBC, 74.1%)
.15 kg Crisp Rye Malt (24 EBC, 11.1%)
.15 kg Belgomalt Wheat Malt (4 EBC, 11.1%)
.05 kg PlatinumSwaen Salted Caramel (25 EBC, 3.7%)

Hops:
Boil:
8 gr Simcoe @ 30
6 gr Simcoe @ 10

Whirlpool (30 minutes, 77 C):
16 gr Simcoe (10.6%)
8 gr Zeus (11.4%)
16 gr Mosaic (10.4%)

Pitch hops:
6 grams Sabro (15.3%)

Dry hops:
20 gr Simcoe
8 gr Zeus
12 gr Mosaic

I used BR-8 with a dried fermented saison using BE-134 and it definitely has this funky-like, horse, leather and all these beautiful brett notes. Brewed the Saison back in July, cold-crashed, matured for few weeks and then added BR-8 by the beggining of October in the vessel along with some oak chips. OG was 1.053, ended up in 1.009 and then continued until 1.003 which is less thatn expected but, all brett character is there. Bottled 36 units just couple days ago with cbc-1 and I'm waiting 2-3 weeks for 1st taste. Will let you know.

 

[Miraculix]

I used BR-8 with a dried fermented saison using BE-134 and it definitely has this funky-like, horse, leather and all these beautiful brett notes. Brewed the Saison back in July, cold-crashed, matured for few weeks and then added BR-8 by the beggining of October in the vessel along with some oak chips. OG was 1.053, ended up in 1.009 and then continued until 1.003 which is less thatn expected but, all brett character is there. Bottled 36 units just couple days ago with cbc-1 and I'm waiting 2-3 weeks for 1st taste. Will let you know.

Whatever got you the character and took the attenuation further down was not br8. Unlike other Brettanomyces, br8 cannot metabolize longer sugars so when be134 was done, there was literally no food left for the br8. Maybe there was something on the oak chips or the be134 just decided to continue.

 

[DBhomebrew]

Does a diastatic yeast break down the larger sugars within their cells or do they excrete the enzyme into the beer? The latter would make the smaller sugars available to the BR-8.

 

[Miraculix]

Does a diastatic yeast break down the larger sugars within their cells or do they excrete the enzyme into the beer? The latter would make the smaller sugars available to the BR-8.

I think it's an external process with secreted enzymes, but I'm not sure. However, after the extended time before adding the br8, the be134 would have certainly munched the shorter sugars itself.

 

[mac_1103]

Glucoamylase is secreted and breaks down the dextrins outside the yeast cell. Whether the BR8 gets a shot at the sugars depends on when it's added and whether/when the BE-134 poops out.

 

[DBhomebrew]

@cesaruiz will have to confirm, but it sounded like BR-8 was pitched at 1.009 and the beer finished at 1.003

So, the final 6pts with both BE-134 and BR-8 working.

 

[Miraculix]

@cesaruiz will have to confirm, but it sounded like BR-8 was pitched at 1.009 and the beer finished at 1.003

So, the final 6pts with both BE-134 and BR-8 working.

Yes. But this means that something else was active there and also contributing to the flavour because br8 could not have done this.

 

[G_robertus]

@cesaruiz will have to confirm, but it sounded like BR-8 was pitched at 1.009 and the beer finished at 1.003

So, the final 6pts with both BE-134 and BR-8 working.

I concur. I'm not sure on fermentation kinetics with two strains present though. So far my BR-8 character with diastasic yeast has been a bit less of what I'd hoped. I split my pseudo-lambic into four fractions today and the base beer has noticeable funk, but it isn't overwhelming. I'm hoping carbonation and even more conditioning will help on that department.

 

[Miraculix]

I have bottled my historically inspired london porter. I have three versions of it. One finished with about 5% at 1.035 FG, one version that had a secondary fermentation with added brett clausenii and one version which had a secondary fermentation with added brett clausenii and BR8. All of them now aged for one year. Two versions in bulk with brett and the non-bretted version in the bottle. Actually, there was a forth version, bottle secondary BR-8 only.

Surprise surprise, the non-brett version is pretty sweet. But I musst say, it suits the style. It is a nice and chewy beer. Very very malty because of the loads of imperial brown malt (not to be confused with regular brown malt, this one is not bitter or acrid and it is diastatic, beautiful malt!) and moderately hoppy. Nice winter beer.

Second surprise, brett clausenii only brought the fg down by about 5 points to 1.03 fg. This beer has hints of stone fruit in it but you really have to look for it. Overall this beer tastes less oxidised than the non-bretted version and a bit dryer. I prefer it to the non bretted version. It tasted wonderfull directly out of the fermenter with the little carbonation it already had.

Third suprise, the mix of clausenii and BR-8 brought the fg down by 9 points to 1.026 fg. This beer is thinner, dryer and little bit less flavourfull than the other two but has a bit more brett character to it. My guess is, chilled to an apropriate temperature and carbed up, this will be the winner. It also brougth a fourth surprise with it, there is ZERO hint of BR8 in the taste. I get a little bit of what clausenii seems to have given to the other beer here as well but literally 0 BR-8 connected flavours. Although BR-8 is usually so upfront. I have also added BR8 to some of the bottle "non bretted" versions (so secondary in the bottle) and these notably tasted different than the combined bretts. The single br8 bottles had the br8 flavours, which I am not a big fan of. The mixed version did not have it.

So in hinsight, clausenii seems a bit too "weak" for my liking, I expected more impact from the brett.

Combined with BR-8 it did a better job in regards to flavour and fg so I would recomend that mix, but not BR-8 alone.

Next time brett will be something more expressive.

Cheers!

 

[YeastFace]

My pack took a while to arrive, so I didn't get to co pitch.

I used Lallemand Philly to get the wort to 3.6ph, then pitched WHC Farmhouse Vibes (variant or prepackage of Belle Saison), then some grape must, then some Orval dregs. I've used the BR-8 to keg condition.

I had to draw off a sample as overfilled the keg and had beer started coming out of the spunding valve (fully closed - just to monitor the pressure).

It's only been 17 days but hoping it improves as at the moment it has degraded the beer I put into the keg by some degree. I do have 2 750ml bottles of the non BR-8 beer just in case and for comparison.

 

[Miraculix]

My pack took a while to arrive, so I didn't get to co pitch.

I used Lallemand Philly to get the wort to 3.5ph, then pitched WHC Farmhouse Vibes (variant or prepackage of Belle Saison), then some grape must, then some Orval dregs. I've used the BR-8 to keg condition.

I had to draw off a sample as overfilled the keg and had beer started coming out of the spunding valve (fully closed - just to monitor the pressure).

It's only been 17 days but hoping it improves as at the moment it has degraded the beer I put into the keg by some degree. I do have 2 750ml bottles of the non BR-8 beer just in case and for comparison.

It will improve slightly but it still is a negative flavour impact compared to any beer I've made without it. I've made multiple side by side comparisons with and without copitching other Brett strains, using it in primary and using it only when bottle conditioning.

My verdict is, this yeast does not bring a beneficial character. Better leave it be. Every beer was better without the br8. The best one was the copitched one that had clausenii in addition. But still, secondary with clausenii on its own was better.

I really tried to like it...

 

[G_robertus]

In my experience the harshness does go down again. Compared to other beers with Brettanomyces that I've tried it is somewhat underwhelming. Mostly because the profile is rather weird. I have yet to dial what makes it tick. Co-fermentation with Philly Sour and Belle Saison yielded an interesting beer. Though not what I was looking for, they complement each other nicely. PS is somewhat boring on its own, but with BR-8 you can create some extra depth. It's a summer sipper that I'll definitely brew again.

Next up I'll try it in fruit beers and ciders. I think this might work well with apples.

 

[Miraculix]

In my experience the harshness does go down again. Compared to other beers with Brettanomyces that I've tried it is somewhat underwhelming. Mostly because the profile is rather weird. I have yet to dial what makes it tick. Co-fermentation with Philly Sour and Belle Saison yielded an interesting beer. Though not what I was looking for, they complement each other nicely. PS is somewhat boring on its own, but with BR-8 you can create some extra depth. It's a summer sipper that I'll definitely brew again.

Next up I'll try it in fruit beers and ciders. I think this might work well with apples.

I have now about 30 bottles of very strong porter that I do not like, because of the same mindset. Feel free to drop the idea of experimenting with this yeast further if you like .