Question about a late hop addition. (@1 min.)

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kartracer2

kartracer2

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This might be a dumb question but my next beer is this kit that I am going to make. I have not added hops as late as this recipe does, a 2 oz. @ 1min. addition. So my thoughts are just basically just bag them like the others and only let them boil for just 1 min and take them out with the rest of the hops bags. OR,, do I let them "steep" a bit after flame out?
I know it seems like a dumb question but I really want to have this batch turn out well as it's big and kind of spendy.
Oh, if you look at the recipe, what is your opinion of this kit?. Does it sound good to you? I have made some changes to it (boil hop quantity and time to retain the bitterness ratio) as I am only going to boil 1/2 of the extract, the rest @ flame out.
Thanks and Cheers, :mug:
Joel B.
 
kartracer2 said:
This might be a dumb question but my next beer is this kit that I am going to make. I have not added hops as late as this recipe does, a 2 oz. @ 1min. addition. So my thoughts are just basically just bag them like the others and only let them boil for just 1 min and take them out with the rest of the hops bags. OR,, do I let them "steep" a bit after flame out?
I know it seems like a dumb question but I really want to have this batch turn out well as it's big and kind of spendy.
Oh, if you look at the recipe, what is your opinion of this kit?. Does it sound good to you? I have made some changes to it (boil hop quantity and time to retain the bitterness ratio) as I am only going to boil 1/2 of the extract, the rest @ flame out.
Thanks and Cheers, :mug:
Joel B.
Click to expand...
That's a great question!
I would interpret it as a one minute steep just before flameout, but probably the writer of the recipe is the only one who knows for sure.
One minute seems like you really would not be getting all the flavor out, but leaving them in you would definitely be getting more bitter.

Edit: I just looked at the instructions and it seems like, per addendum 1, that the hops are all still in there at transfer time.
 
PCABrewing said:
That's a great question!
I would interpret it as a one minute steep just before flameout, but probably the writer of the recipe is the only one who knows for sure.
One minute seems like you really would not be getting all the flavor out, but leaving them in you would definitely be getting more bitter.
Click to expand...
Ha, at least I'm not the only one with a quizzical look on my face. (LOL). Now I don't feel quite so dumb.
I'm leaning twards at flame out taking the other hop bags out and letting them drain a little and the the last one afterwards.
Still seems like a waste of hops to me. I'm not a hop head so maybe that's why I'm overthinking it a little.
Hell, I might forget them altogether as would be just for aroma, Right? Then I'd have some hops for a hefe, I have enough extra Wheat LME and a pack of Munich Classic laying around doing nothing. (LOL)
Cheers, :mug:
Joel B.
 
PCABrewing said:
Edit: I just looked at the instructions and it seems like, per addendum 1, that the hops are all still in there at transfer time.
Click to expand...
Yeah I had read that but I have never let my hop bags in after flame out, at least removed before cooling. I just let them drain in a strainer over the kettle for a for min or so. I guess just cuz.

Cheers, :mug:
Joel B.
 
kartracer2 said:
Yeah I had read that but I have never let my hop bags in after flame out, at least removed before cooling. I just let them drain in a strainer over the kettle for a for min or so. I guess just cuz.

Cheers, :mug:
Joel B.
Click to expand...
Same here, but your question made me look and it seems they don't intend them to be pulled at all.
 
PCABrewing said:
Same here, but your question made me look and it seems they don't intend them to be pulled at all.
Click to expand...
Yeah , those instructions are generic for any extract recipe of theirs you look at. That's one thing about MB, they really don't have recipe specific instructions.
Not that I'm any better brewer than them or others, I'm going to take my hop bags out before trying to cool, like I always have. No sense trying to cool 6 + oz's of hop goo and the wort.
Cheers, :mug:
Joel B.
 
Sammy86 said:
Leave the hops in while you're cooling wort. If you want to remove them before transfering them into the fermentor than ok, but I would leave them in as long as you can.
Click to expand...
+1.

kartracer2 said:
No sense trying to cool 6 + oz's of hop goo and the wort.
Click to expand...
Basic Brewing Radio's hop sampler process is one way to understand the impact of cool down time on late hop additions. Experimental Brewing's "The IBU is a LIE! Kind of....." (link) is another.
 
Thank's @BrewnWKopperKat , for the link. I'm not sure that really learned much from that other than bitterness is nothing but a crap shoot, so to speak. I will re-read a time or two to try to gain more from it.
I guess also because I always treat my spent hop bags the same way in the past, I will this time also. It's part of "my" process I guess.
I wish I would have asked this "Q" before today, then I would have more time to get confused do more research. LOL).
TA & Cheers,
Joel B.
:mug:
 
kartracer2 said:
I always treat my spent hop bags the same way in the past, I will this time also. It's part of "my" process
Click to expand...
+1.

more research
Click to expand...
Some things to consider...

The Experimental Homebrewing article suggests that cool down time has an impact on IBUs. The Basic Brewing Radio "Hop Sampler" process takes advantage of that suggestion.

The "Hop Sampler" process [brewing a six pack] is roughly this: bring the water to a boil, add the DME & hops, turn off the heat. Let the kettle sit for 20 minutes, then chill. In one of the episodes, they mention that the wort is at around 155 after 20 minutes. In one of the episodes, they did mention lab measured IBUs.

There is an exBEERiment (link) that may be of interest.

Finally, Basic Brewing Radio November 1, 2018 (IBUs vs Wort Gravity and Hop Stand Temps) may offer some insights into IBUs extracted between boiling & 170F.
 
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For no other reason than personal preference I remove hop bags from early hop additions at end of boil and bags from late hop addition when chilling and the wort reached a certain temperature, say 40 - 45C. Squeezing those bags a bit.
 
I have a few thoughts on this:

1. The thing I like about the vagueness of the MB instructions is that they essentially cater to both kinds of brewers. Experienced brewers already know their particular practices, so being overly prescriptive is pointless. And newer brewers go out and research details and/or experiment with process variations they've heard of, but not tried.

2. I've never heard of "hop bags" before, other than the bag they come in from the store. But it sounds like this is some sort of mesh bag you put them in when you add them to the kettle? If so, why do you do this- keep them out of a plate chiller you use to cool wort? Don't want them in the fermentor? OCD tendencies and you like everything to be "in order"?

3. I've never conducted a survey, so maybe I'm off in my assumption here, but I think the predominant process people use is throwing them in "commando", and leaving them. I've heard of experiments with dry hopping in bags and how you get less out of the hops when they're bagged, so people compensate by putting in more. I don't know if that same thing would play out in the boil (definitely not as much). But if you're trying to create someone's results from a recipe you're reading, I'd assume they meant throwing them in commando and then they stay in the kettle as you chill, and maybe even some transfer to your fermentor depending on your process/gear. As others have mentioned above, putting them in the boil for 1 minute, then taking them out, will give you a different effect than putting them in and leaving them. So if trying to follow a recipe, I would recommend leaving them. Brewing recipes you've gotten from somewhere else is a good way to stumble upon some new process that ends up giving you good results, or maybe reinforcing that your already-used processes are preferable to you.
 
Not sure if hop bags is the words to use, but sort of self explanatory I guess. Not sure what is most common, if people throw in hops directly in the kettle or use a hop spider, or something similar. Personally I use a couple of smaller BIAB bags I attach to the kettle with some paper clips. One bag for the early additions and one for the later/hop stand additions.

As of why, partly because I don't want too much of in the fermenter, and partly because I've always thought of a 60 min addition being just that... 60 mins, not 60 min + 20 min hopstand + 10/15 min chilling. That might just be me though, maybe just ignorance but certainly no OCD :D
 
Thanks for the help folks!
To @micraftbeer and any body else that cares to read a bit.
#1, I agree with you on the instructions, to a point. This particular kit is labeled "Signature Series", an almost $60+ kit depending on extract type +yeast. From the description on the site: "It (the recipe) was both outstanding and unique". (my emphasis) I think a detailed set of instructions wouldn't be too much to ask on this one.
#2, Yes, the hop bags I refer to are nylon mesh bags that I put hops (pellets) in to reduce the vegetative matter and keep it out of the fermenter. I guess I just don't want that gunk in there, no sense trying to ferment hop residue and still have to deal with it in the end.
OCD? Oh hell no!. Unless you talk about my tools and tool chest I have few OCD tendencies. (LOL)
#3, Assumptions, killer of valid questions and a cause many of mistakes. I try not to make too many of them. When it comes to brewing, hops and the various ways to use them are as vast as the sky. It seems each "expert" have their own beliefs. When trying to recreate a recipe I try to follow the writers process if I can. (AG brewers should know how important that is.) If I don't, I can't expect the same results. In this particular situation, if I want to recreate this recipe, hop handling & timings seem (to me) an important issue. (revisit #1)
I am a simple extract brewer, (and some question if extract and brewing can be in the same sentences) and only made 16 batches in 2021. I'm far from being accomplished much less an expert, but in all the years and all the batches (I have no total number) I've made, I have yet to toss one. I don't want to start tossing now especially with a $60 kit because I made an incorrect assumption. I will add I'm not a hop hound, quite the opposite really so a hoppy beer reduces my liking for it, even if that's the way it was meant to be and I reconstructed it perfectly.
Any time I try a new (to me) method I try to be as confident as I can be that it will work out. That is the reason for the post in the first place. I have never added hops this late nor have I even dry hopped, so I'm just trying to do it as right as I can.
Sorry for being so windy and I hope this explains a few things.
Thanks again and Cheers, :mug:
Joel B.
 
If you've had good results with the hop bag method and are comfortable with it for whatever reasons (taste, process), then definitely stick with it.

At the same time, as you asked this question, you got some feedback on a different method- leaving the hops in until wort is chilled. Maybe leave your hop bags in while chilling, then take them out. Or throw hops in loose, and put the bag in your fermentor (sanitized bag, of course) to catch your hops that way.

That said, you've said you're not much of a hophead, and leaving them in longer will definitely get you more IBUs. So maybe that's a method you don't want to experiment with.
 
micraftbeer said:
If you've had good results with the hop bag method and are comfortable with it for whatever reasons (taste, process), then definitely stick with it.

At the same time, as you asked this question, you got some feedback on a different method- leaving the hops in until wort is chilled. Maybe leave your hop bags in while chilling, then take them out. Or throw hops in loose, and put the bag in your fermentor (sanitized bag, of course) to catch your hops that way.

That said, you've said you're not much of a hophead, and leaving them in longer will definitely get you more IBUs. So maybe that's a method you don't want to experiment with.
Click to expand...
Thanks again for your input.
I'm a "if it's not broke, don't fix it kind of guy". When I get a new to me beer recipe, I read the instructions and take note of any thing in the process (if stated) that is different than what I do normally. Then with BeerSmith I take note of the IBU/SG ratio and adjust it (the recipe) to my normal process of partial boil/late extract additions to keep that ratio. It has worked out for me that way, I doubt I will change it for just for change sake, especially if it means more hop forward beer.
As @schmurf stated, I take "hops at xx minutes" to mean just that and then remove them at the end of the boil. I guess that brings me back to the original question of sorts. What will just a 1 min. splash in the wort bring to the table?. Will they even fall apart in that length of time? Without the recipe writers process stated, the results will be all over the map due to every ones different method and ability. For example, if you use a highly efficient chiller and I cool in a sink, hop contact time (and reactive temperature ?) will vary quite a lot. That difference will change things right?
I may not have OCD but I do suffer from a need (desire ?) of logical thinking (LOL).
Cheers, :mug:
Joel B.
 
kartracer2 said:
I guess that brings me back to the original question of sorts. What will just a 1 min. splash in the wort bring to the table?. Will they even fall apart in that length of time? Without the recipe writers process stated, the results will be all over the map due to every ones different method and ability.
Click to expand...

You're probably not going to get much at all from that 1min steep. Ever steep tea for a mere minute? Bland.

As far as the unstated recipe, you should probably assume the widely accepted basic steep and extract process as published in the major books. Palmer, Papazian, etc. That's commando hops in the wort through chilling.

You've gotten the most probable answers and repeatedly declared you're not going to change your process. Go ahead and brew.
 
DBhomebrew said:
You're probably not going to get much at all from that 1min steep. Ever steep tea for a mere minute? Bland.
(I agree)

As far as the unstated recipe, you should probably assume the widely accepted basic steep and extract process as published in the major books. Palmer, Papazian, etc. That's commando hops in the wort through chilling.
( I guess those of us that use bags to contain hop debris are doing it all wrong.
from MB's brewing instructions:
#6. Add your bittering hops. Put the hops in a fine mesh nylon bag if
available.
ADDENDUM:
*1 While transferring from kettle to fermenter there is no need to
strain the wort. During the boil, using mesh hop bags to retain most
of the vegetable matter from the hops is sufficient.
As far as "widely accepted practice" goes, using a second FV was one of those also. Basic practice used to be you boil all the extract, that too has changed. I have not read any place not to use a hop bag or that it is bad practice. Please feel free to prove other wise.)

You've gotten the most probable answers and repeatedly declared you're not going to change your process. Go ahead and brew.
(I have not "declared repeatedly" that I will not change my process. I have stated I won't do it without reason, there is a difference.)
Click to expand...
@BrewnWKopperKat has been one that has provided sound reasoning and links behind their thoughts and I give thanks again for that. I also thank others for their input and process ideas.
I am sorry that I may come across as obtuse, I'd like to think that I am not. I guess my problem is not taking opinion as facts and not bowing down to those opinions.
Cheers, :mug:
Joel B.
 
By your own intuition you agree a one minute steep won't do much. But you're going to go with it anyway. You want others to provide logic/proof to do otherwise. Your reasoning to pull them at flameout is to stick with *your* process, it ain't broke. But *your* process has no precedent in late additions.

I fail to understand. But that's neither here nor there. Brew on. :mug:
 
some late (in the discussion) observations and research

kartracer2 said:
What will just a 1 min. splash in the wort bring to the table?. Will they even fall apart in that length of time?
Click to expand...
My experience with adding the hops "commando" with a brief stir is that the hops will fall apart immediately. At that point, some(?)/most(?) of the hop oils would be in the wort. I'm not sure how quickly the hops break up without a stir (but I do know that heat is a factor. I added hops to 120F wort once - the wort had to warm up a lot before the stirring was effective).

If the hops were added loosely in a bag to the boiling wort, dunking the bag a couple of times may have a similar effect to adding the hops "commando" with a stir - although it is possible that the bag could keep some(?) of the hop oils from getting into the wort. Lots of speculation - and no easy way to measure the results.

Willamette is described as providing "spicy, herbal, and floral" flavors. As a late addition, it would appear to have a "supporting" role. If the late addition of Willamette was not there, it would still be an enjoyable beer.

But if this was an IPA recipe with Citra as the late addition, it would be a different situation.
 
DBhomebrew said:
By your own intuition you agree a one minute steep won't do much. But you're going to go with it anyway. You want others to provide logic/proof to do otherwise. Your reasoning to pull them at flameout is to stick with *your* process, it ain't broke. But *your* process has no precedent in late additions.

I fail to understand. But that's neither here nor there. Brew on. :mug:
Click to expand...
Wrong again.
When I make this kit I will probably not even mess with the late addition (@ 1 min,) and take my chances that it will be a beer "I" will still enjoy. (see post #4) I can always hold a yet unused hop pellet, crush it, and hold it close to my nose if I think the aroma is lacking when drinking. (talk about out of process) I'm also sure I can find a more useful place for those 2oz. of hops than just taking them for a quick swim and absorbing wort.
I didn't ask any body to provide me with anything unless they "wanted" to provide logic/proof that putting hops in bags is a bad thing as you seem to believe. If putting hops in bags is bad, I'm sure it would be easy for you to provide that info as facts not opinion. I see no issue with that part of my process so no, I'm not going to fix that part. I get all the hop expression I feel I need with my process.
As for my "precedent" with late add hops, I wouldn't have even asked if I had any, duh.
Your failure to understand is not my problem. I have been trying to be as clear as I can, . I guess I fail at that also.

Thanks @BrewnWKopperKat for your input. (" some late (in the discussion) observations and research ")


Cheers, :mug:
Joel B.
 
Didn't mean to be acerbic, but I was. My apologies.

I wasn't saying the bag was bad. Only that the recipe is likely counting on the late addition to be in the wort through cooling as that is the most common. My reasoning? That's the method most written about in the major publications. Things do change. Hence Palmer's 4th edition.

You are correct, different chilling times can affect IBU and flavor/aroma profile. It's probably assumed that it's chilled. On the other extreme, no chill. For that, there is rough understanding of adding 20m. So, for a 1m addition and no chilling, it'll act like a 21m. To get just the aroma and no IBUs with no chill you need to move the recipe's 1m to a dry hop. I use a water bath. Faster than a no chill, slower than a IC. I'm finding good results by moving the recipe's flameout addition to a whirlpool once it hits 180.

I brew a bunch of British bitters with EKG and Fuggle late additions. Willamette is related to Fuggle. Subtle, yes. Something I'd want to skip? No. But that's me.

Cheers. I'm sure it'll be great beer.
 
Thanks @DBhomebrew that's the kind of info I was looking for. I kinda tried to find something using the search here but I seldom have much luck using HBT search. I'm still undecided on what I am going to do but this help's a lot. Now I wish I would have kept some records on the speed of my chilling. I don't have a IC, just use the sink and ice water method. I got stuff to make a different beer (without late hop adds, LOL) and will pay attention on the time needed to cool. That should help me make a decision on how I'm going to proceed with the beer in question.
I have the 3rd edition of Palmer but I haven't read it through, I guess I should. Maybe I'll update to the 4th also.

As far as apologies, I accept yours if you accept mine, I got a bit snippy in my own special and usual way. (probably explains why I'm single):rolleyes:

Thanks again for you input
Cheers, :mug:
Joel B.
 
Truly, I wouldn't sweat it. What's the AA% on the hops you have in hand for the late addition? Pretty low, I expect. Even at the outside with no chill, it'd be now more bitter than a 20m addition. Throw that into your software. I wouldn't be surprised if the extra IBUs are in the single digits. Also, if it's a bit too bitter a little extra conditioning would settle that out and dark beers like extra conditioning anyway.

I think the late addition will add some nice things. Necessary? Of course not. But it's a big part of what makes the beer interesting and unique. I think possible benefits outweigh possible negatives.

We're good, of course. I'm about to pour a beer. Cheers.
 
@DBhomebrew they are 2oz. Willamette 7.1% @1 min.
It makes little difference in BeerSmith with or with out as far as IBU's are concerned or the IBU/SG ratio. I guess that's expected.
I don't know if BS will figure late add whirlpool or dry hopping. I guess I just hadn't felt the need until now. (LOL) I am using BS 2.3.12 so is kinda old, relatively. (2016)
Cheers, :mug:
Joel B.
 
That's higher AA then what I typically use, so you'll get more bittering from it then I do. Fair enough.

What's the IBUs if you set it for 20m? That's probably the absolute worse case as far as slow chilling.
 
I (and I believe most) keep it in until transfer.

ETA: once you get down past 170-180 it's not adding any IBUs, just flavor/aroma. Those will be somewhat muted through fermentation blowoff. An extra hour or whatever under those temps won't add any bitterness.

BTW, I'm not a hophead either. That's why I go for British styles over American.
 
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Thanks, now I have a better direction and perhaps understanding.
I'm still going to make the other batch to get a handle on the amount of time I take to get "cool".
I've been on a run of using Lallermand Kevik lately because I have no temp control other than heating. Only need to get that down to 95* to pitch, that's easy, the next 25*/30* takes longer it seems. This time of year I can do regular temp ale ferments. Woo Hoo! Time to fill the pipe line. Next couple of months will be busy, I have several kits to brew, (7 I think). One of then involves dry hopping, a whole nuther new deal to me. but that's for later.
Cheers, :mug:
Joel B.
 
I do partial boils, late extract additions, and top off.
I boil 1 1/2 gal. water with 1/2 the extract and any steeped grains. I do 30 min. boils. At the end of the boil I move the kettle to the sink and add the other half of the extract that has already been dissolved in 1/2 gal. water. This brings the temperature down below 180 to about 170. I then add the aroma hops. i start filling the sink with cold water. The metal brew kettle transfers heat very well and the wort is to about 110 in a fairly short period. I then transfer the wort to the fermenter and top off to 5 gal. with a combination of water than was put in the freezer and water that just sat out. I can usually hit close to 70 if I don't let it sit too long in the sink. If it's a bit colder, it won't hurt anything.
I just throw my hops in the pot. I suggest you leave the hops in until you're ready to top off; you will only be extracting flavor and aroma oils.
 
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DBhomebrew said:
In that case, I'd do what I've started to do with my water bath. Add them when it gets down to 180°. Below 170-180, they don't isomerize.
Click to expand...
I've seen this also. But there's a study (An Analysis of Sub-Boiling Hop Utilization) that shows diminishing isomerization down to 140F, and below, but the curve stops there. I do a whirlpool at about170 - 180F, and the isomerization curves in this study have worked out for me.
 
Yeah, I have been doing some snooping around here and found this too:
VikeMan said:
Ideally, you want to temp to come down as fast as possible, because otherwise the high temps could allow the formation of DMS (from residual SMM, its precursor) that isn't going to boil away.

Also, FWIW, bittering (alpha acid isomerization) doesn't "stop" at 170 degrees, but the lower the temp, the slower it happens. That said, there are good reasons to find your ideal whirlpool temperature (e.g. aroma compound dissolution vs evaporation tradeoff sweet spot) and 170 may be great for your beers.
Click to expand...
It came from another thread but very relatable. (to me) As per usual, the more I read sometimes, the "confusder I gitz".
Really though I am finding this a very interesting topic for me. As I stated above somewhere that I'm not a hop head but the info pertains to any beer because different processes that people use.
If I am understanding it right, the hops, if left in the BK (comando) rather than removed at flame out (as in a hop sock as I do) they will continue to do the voodoo they do, until cooled a certain magical temp.
With all that said, I could still be way off and probably am. )LOL).
Cheers, :mug:
Joel B.
 

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