Saaz (or noble hops) addition timings

[Alan Reginato]

Hi there! A small introduction here. I kinda didn't love so much that citrus/fruit/bitter combo that everybody seems to be turn on with. So I don't care about that low boil point oils and didn't enjoyed too much when dry hopped a couple of brews.
Anyway I was in for flameout (hopstand, whirpool... Whatever you call it) additions. But is difficult to predict bitternes levels in that way. I got very different results from recipes with nearly same calculated IBUs. BTW I notice the flavour faded faster. And since found this Exbeeriment and other opinions here and there, I was wondering if it's worthy.

Besides that, I bought some Saaz hops and planned to make a hoppy saison.

Looking for the best usage of noble hops, I found very conflicting opinions about it. Some say that it should be use just like any other hop, in late additions.

Some say it should be added at 60 minutes or more, to those spicy flavours shine. I even found some articles involving oxidated oil and stuff.

Anyone could give a light here? What's the best schedule for noble hops, like Saaz?

 

[Dland]

I usually use Saaz and other in nobels when I'm going for a more traditional lager. Often I put them in for 30 min boil w a base hop like northern brewer going in at first wort.

Nothing wrong w using Saaz for early, mid and late hop additions. Though if going for classic euro lager flavor, late hop additions would be kept to minimum, if used at all.

 

[user 341102]

I usually use Saaz and other in nobels when I'm going for a more traditional lager. Often I put them in for 30 min boil w a base hop like northern brewer going in at first wort.

Nothing wrong w using Saaz for early, mid and late hop additions. Though if going for classic euro lager flavor, late hop additions would be kept to minimum, if used at all.

+1

Conventional European (specifically, German and Czech) lagers use noble hops for bittering and few, if any, late kettle additions. For a classic Pilsner, adding Saaz at flameout would be appropriate. I recently had a noble hop IPA with a lot of late kettle and dry hop additions. It was good.

I think some late kettle additions in a saison would be fine as long as the other hops don’t have a flavor profile that clashes with saaz

 

[Miraculix]

You could buy yourself Scott Janishs book, I think it's called "the new ipa". He covers in depth there which hop characteristic needs which heat, boil time, noble hop Vs c-hop etc., all with a scientific approach. Great book for everything hop related, especially these questions that you and I seem to have in common.

 

[Miraculix]

One takeaway for me from that book was that herbal flavours come through with 60 min full boil additions as well, so there's not so much need for late additions as it is with fruity hops. You could time it though, like 50% at 60 Minute and maybe the rest at 30 or 20 minutes left of the boil.

 

[AlexKay]

For getting reliable results (and bitterness), I’ve personally moved away from flameout additions and towards ~10 minute and hop-stand additions. Admittedly more 10 for herbal hops and stand for fruity ones. Though a bunch of EKG or the like standing at 150 F for 10 minutes can sometimes be just the thing an English ale needs.

 

[couchsending]

Traditionally Saaz used in Pilsners brewed in the Czech Republic would be loaded into the beginning of the boil or FW then another addition at 60 and maybe the last at 30 or 40. I think people would be surprised how much noble hop character actually comes through in the final beer when these hops are boiled for extended periods of time. The trend of moving everything later in the boil or WP might be great for some modern hops but for traditional noble varieties I find the character of the final beer to have more negative attributes from those hops. Sounds counter intuitive I know but if you’re looking for bright floral additions from your Saaz I’d say load up the beginning of the boil and don’t add any past 20 minutes left in the boil.

That being said most European varieties have really suffered these last few years. If you’re using 2022 harvest the alpha might be incredibly low. Saaz is usually really low anyways but the alpha have been below 2 lately. You’ll probably need to add at least some slightly higher alpha variety to get the IBUs you’re looking for.

In my opinion the trend of adding the majority of the hops for modern IPA in the WP leads to a really one dimensional beer that tends to lose its hop character much faster than those beers where hops are boiled. At my brewery we make pretty highly regarded modern IPAs and we do significant additions at 30 minutes and 10 minutes. We’ve tested against the same beer with just a 60 minute addition for bitterness and a large WP addition and the one with larger additions during the boil had more hop flavor and much more hop impact after 30 and 60 days.

 

[Alan Reginato]

Traditionally Saaz used in Pilsners brewed in the Czech Republic would be loaded into the beginning of the boil or FW then another addition at 60 and maybe the last at 30 or 40. I think people would be surprised how much noble hop character actually comes through in the final beer when these hops are boiled for extended periods of time. The trend of moving everything later in the boil or WP might be great for some modern hops but for traditional noble varieties I find the character of the final beer to have more negative attributes from those hops. Sounds counter intuitive I know but if you’re looking for bright floral additions from your Saaz I’d say load up the beginning of the boil and don’t add any past 20 minutes left in the boil.

That being said most European varieties have really suffered these last few years. If you’re using 2022 harvest the alpha might be incredibly low. Saaz is usually really low anyways but the alpha have been below 2 lately. You’ll probably need to add at least some slightly higher alpha variety to get the IBUs you’re looking for.

In my opinion the trend of adding the majority of the hops for modern IPA in the WP leads to a really one dimensional beer that tends to lose its hop character much faster than those beers where hops are boiled. At my brewery we make pretty highly regarded modern IPAs and we do significant additions at 30 minutes and 10 minutes. We’ve tested against the same beer with just a 60 minute addition for bitterness and a large WP addition and the one with larger additions during the boil had more hop flavor and much more hop impact after 30 and 60 days.

I've noticed this differences in my batches. All WP additions are great at short runs. A couple of months later and the flavour perceptible reduced. Comparing notes with 60 and 15 minutes, from my firsts batches, and seems that they lasted longer. Perhaps isn't just oils that impact flavours. I thought of, somehow, split this batch. But I have only one boil kettle. Maybe I could put the wort, after mashing, in one of my two fermentors. They're made of HDPE, they should stand 70 C. And make two separate boils, with different hopping schedule.

 

[jdauria]

I just brewed a grisette, which is in the saison family. I used Saaz at 60 and at 5 minutes. For my lagers, when using it, I normally do at 50 minutes and at 20, and sometimes at 5. I even used 2 ounces in whirlpool once, for with a Victory Prima Pils clone.

 

[GoodTruble]

I've done all-saaz saisons. They were great. But I do think saaz is one of the softest/subtlest noble hops. So if you are going for "hoppy", maybe drop a lot at whirlpool or even dry hop.