N. England - late hopping guidance, IBU's?

[Gadjobrinus]

Trying to work back in, and focusing on N. England ales. Pleased so far with the bitters I've brewed, though I'm now trying to dial in WP/steep utilizations and Beersmith - trying to parse IBU contributions when late hops go into a 30 minute stand, because if I go with what I'm seeing on paper at least, I'd have to eliminate bittering hops altogether at least in one recipe, and that can't be right. Just starting with the program and lots to learn. At any rate, another story.

I suspect there is no "general" to be applied, though perhaps there may be. Looking for some guidance on late hopping for flavor and aroma, and dry hopping rates, where applicable, for N. England ales, bitters in particular. I like a good balance of malt and bitterness - something in .82-.87 BU:GU, generally. And in terms of late hops, I'm looking for a discernable, pleasing nose and flavor, without being overwhelming or "American," for want of a way to better say it. Part of the story - if it's floral, it's there and blends almost indiscernibly well with the malt and yeast/fermentation aromas. If it means anything, something like the impression of crushed violets in certain Beaujolais, or earth or same, violets, in good Burgundy pinot.

Certain hops, like First Gold, in certain beers, like my strong bitter, I like a more definite quality. That orange marmalade....but for the most part, there, but fairly delicate.

I seem to recall - was it Timothy Taylor, or Fuller's?, big difference obviously, regionally - but the brewer saying 80% of the IBU contribution is from the boil, with 20% obviously being spread in late and dry hops. In terms of the goals stated above, any thoughts?

(PS. For that recipe mentioned in the first paragraph, see below - comparison of no bittering (challenger), with the feature accounting for WP/steep 30 min. enabled). You can see that with Challenger (bittering) set to zero, but the steep enabled, I'm getting a massive 1.123 BU:GU:

-and with it not enabled, and .4 oz. Challenger in the boil, I'm getting what I think is closer to reality .826 BU:GU. I should mention this is much closer to what I got in Promash:

 

[VikeMan]

One thing to keep in mind when looking at all those post-boil hop addition IBUs is that back in the day, when it was just standard Tinseth (or Rager, etc.) IBUs that were being computed, the total IBU levels were being underestimated. The post-boil IBUs were still happening, but the formulae didn't know. My advice, unless you are adding a lot more post-boil hops than are typical for the style, would be to ignore those post-boil IBUs when comparing your recipes to "old standard" estimated IBU guidelines.

IOW, given that people designed "40 IBU" beers that were maybe really 50 IBUs, don't try to shoehorn a similar recipe into 40 (total, including post boil) IBUs in today's software.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

One thing to keep in mind when looking at all those post-boil hop addition IBUs is that back in the day, when it was just standard Tinseth (or Rager, etc.) IBUs that were being computed, the total IBU levels were being underestimated. The post-boil IBUs were still happening, but the formulae didn't know. My advice, unless you are adding a lot more post-boil hops than are typical for the style, would be to ignore those post-boil IBUs when comparing your recipes to "old standard" estimated IBU guidelines.

IOW, given that people designed "40 IBU" beers that were maybe really 50 IBUs, don't try to shoehorn a similar recipe into 40 (total, including post boil) IBUs in today's software.

Thanks, good thoughts. At the end of the day I suspect I'll just have to keep tweaking, as we all do, based on the final result. Like the above example, which is how the current one was hopped, on paper it shows 1.123 bitterness ratio but unless my palate is really out of practice from a long time off, I can't see how that's the case. It's also not .83, which is what I get on paper when I remove the WP option. My best guess is that it's about .87, but that's shooting pretty blind based on sense memory.

I've never really gotten into the sub-170 WP thing, only because I'm not much of a natural tweaker actually. I liked the beers I was getting, and was guided by the qualitative impressions. But it would get closer to knowing, and I also just today came across this, which I found interesting:

I take no credit for the following copied from one of my threads where @Hazelwood Brewery gave the following advice;

The whirlpool temperature is often quoted as around 80C but there is a difference at different temperatures just as there is with the mash temperature.
90C favours fruity notes,
80C favours floral,
70C favours woody/spicy.

At 90C you will get about half the IBUs as a boil for the same duration.
At 80C about quarter.
At 70C about 10%

Very useful I found

and Hazelwood Brewery's response (the thread is on homebrewforum.co.uk):

You can’t avoid IBU’s completely but you can minimise IBUs by reducing time and/or temperature but it depends what you’re looking for.

I’m generally looking for fruity/floral notes so chill to 90, add the hopstand hops, hold the temperature for 15-20 minutes, then chill to pitching temperature while the hops are still in the wort. This arguably gives a more complex flavour profile and if you wish you could have more than 1 stop, say 10 mins at 90 and another at 80 with additional hops added to layer flavour. Experiment and have fun!

I have to be honest, though - while I find the techniques interesting, I'm truly devoted to tradition, i.e., would just love to know how the N. British guys really approach it.

 

[day_trippr]

I've never really gotten into the sub-170 WP thing

If you want to brew an neipa effectively I think you need to embrace the 170°F WP thing...

Cheers! (Also, have a friendly relationship with YVH )

 

[Gadjobrinus]

If you want to brew an neipa effectively I think you need to embrace the 170°F WP thing...

Cheers! (Also, have a friendly relationship with YVH )

I'm a fogey. I'm always misplacing my glasses so I need to be able to see through my pint for perspective.

Interesting - just ran the numbers from a TT Landlord recipe on the Malt Miller, and hit the numbers with very little tweaking - but that is assuming no bitterness contributions from the flameout addition. 1.045, 36.2.

-adding the WP option on, way, way over the top:

 

[jerrylotto]

N. England = North Britain or New England US?

 

[Gadjobrinus]

N. England = North Britain or New England US?

Apologies, Northern England. Yorkshire, basically.

Lol - now that I see Jerry's post, I better understand, @day_trippr !

 

[day_trippr]

hahahaha! Who knew there was a Northern England style?

Cheers!

 

[Gadjobrinus]

hahahaha! Who knew there was a Northern England style?

Cheers!

Tosh, man. Don't even breathe that to @Northern_Brewer or @cire !

 

[wepeeler]

For NEIPAs, most of the magic happens during the WP addition (and dry hop). The range in most of the literature is 165-180F, and I, and most others in the LONG NEIPA thread have settled on 170F for 15-25 min, depending on the hops utilized. You do get some bitterness, but from personal experience, it's negligible. I also throw in a few ounces at 5 min or so, but a lot of brewers are doing Flameout or WP additions only with great results.

 

[DBhomebrew]

.

 

[dmtaylor]

Looks to me like whatever that software is (BeerSmith?) is overcalculating the whirlpool hop bitterness. By my off the cuff Taylor method calcs, you'll get some extra bitterness of course, but it's closer to like 45 IBUs or a BU:GU close to 1 rather than whatever that software is giving you. So the right answer is someplace in between, which agrees with your tasting notes.

EDIT:

Here's my method, if anyone is interested. I'd been tweaking this calculator for 5 years before finally calling it good about a year ago. There are other iterations out there that you might have seen but I believe this method is now finally "close enough for most intents & purposes". This method is based on a square-root simplification of Tinseth method, plus an addition for whirlpool additions (non-existent in Tinseth) which essentially assumes that the isomerization rate at standard whirlpool temperatures is approximately 1/3 of that at boiling temperatures. Without further adieu:

IBU = oz * AA% * sqrt[4.6*(Boiltime+0.3*Whirlpooltime)] / V

Where the times are in minutes, and the V is flameout volume in gallons.

Calculate for each hop addition, add them all together, and finally add an extra 1.6 for good measure (because I said so). I bet you’ll match Tinseth’s estimate within about 5 IBUs, maybe 10 at worst (at least for boiled hops). And very often you’ll be within 1 or 2 IBUs. It’s pretty cool I think.

My goal in creating this method was to try to emulate Tinseth's equation, but via a much simpler method, and to include whirlpool hops. It’s definitely reasonably consistent with Tinseth, and about as accurate.

My calc does get wonky if you use boiltimes greater than 80 or 90 minutes. It's only for "normal" brewing.

Maybe try it out, maybe you'll like it. Compare old recipes against Tinseth calcs using your favorite software. I think it's a reasonable approximation. Not exact, but pretty close. And it's not real difficult to memorize, for anyone who might be inclined.

Cheers.

EDIT: To anyone interested from outside the USA... if you prefer to use SI units of grams instead of ounces, and liters instead of gallons, the calculation is exactly the same using those units in the same places but you need to simply divide the result by 7.5. That is the conversion.

Cheers.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Looks to me like whatever that software is (BeerSmith?) is overcalculating the whirlpool hop bitterness. By my off the cuff Taylor method calcs, you'll get some extra bitterness of course, but it's closer to like 45 IBUs or a BU:GU close to 1 rather than whatever that software is giving you. So the right answer is someplace in between, which agrees with your tasting notes.

EDIT:

Here's my method, if anyone is interested. I'd been tweaking this calculator for 5 years before finally calling it good about a year ago. There are other iterations out there that you might have seen but I believe this method is now finally "close enough for most intents & purposes". This method is based on a square-root simplification of Tinseth method, plus an addition for whirlpool additions (non-existent in Tinseth) which essentially assumes that the isomerization rate at standard whirlpool temperatures is approximately 1/3 of that at boiling temperatures. Without further adieu:

IBU = oz * AA% * sqrt[4.6*(Boiltime+0.3*Whirlpooltime)] / V

Where the times are in minutes, and the V is flameout volume in gallons.

Calculate for each hop addition, add them all together, and finally add an extra 1.6 for good measure (because I said so). I bet you’ll match Tinseth’s estimate within about 5 IBUs, maybe 10 at worst (at least for boiled hops). And very often you’ll be within 1 or 2 IBUs. It’s pretty cool I think.

My goal in creating this method was to try to emulate Tinseth's equation, but via a much simpler method, and to include whirlpool hops. It’s definitely reasonably consistent with Tinseth, and about as accurate.

My calc does get wonky if you use boiltimes greater than 80 or 90 minutes. It's only for "normal" brewing.

Maybe try it out, maybe you'll like it. Compare old recipes against Tinseth calcs using your favorite software. I think it's a reasonable approximation. Not exact, but pretty close. And it's not real difficult to memorize, for anyone who might be inclined.

Cheers.

View attachment 838473

Wow, thanks DM, for putting this together. Working with it. Have to ask for your help walking through it - I can only use your template without knowing the construction logic itself (not my strong suit, especially anymore), but it looks like this is for late additions only - in this case, 42 IBUs in late hops alone? In the case of .4 oz Challenger (7%) at 90 minutes, I get 11.8 IBUs boil IBUs - so the actual total would be (11.8+42 = 54 total IBUs) and final BU:GU of 54/46 = 1.17? Is that right?

(Don't know what the "magic factor" or "double-check" data cells are, or how to set up a true/false function, or how it plays into the spreadsheet).

(ps: one of the things I ran into when I included the WP feature in BS3, was that in order to get the BU:GU ratio down to where I wanted it, I had to eliminate boiling hops altogether. And here, as far as I can tell, as the WP is set up, I'm getting 42 IBUs - much more than my targeted 38 IBUs and .83 BU:GU. It seems I either have to drop some of the late boil amounts, or perhaps go to a lower steep temp. Maybe even 170 or less) (?)

 

[dmtaylor]

Yes that's right, with the 0.4 oz Challenger you'll have approximately 54 IBUs. This calculation works for bittering hops as well as the late hops, just add as many lines as you need to account for each hop addition separately. You can safely ignore the magic factor and double-check and FWH=FALSE, that's for my own purposes. I could send you a copy of my spreadsheet if interested in playing with it; however, it looks like you set up yours correctly though so there's no need.

If you are aiming for about 0.83 for BU:GU, eliminate the Challenger, and why not reduce the 10-minute hop addition to 5 minutes. This brings your IBUs to about 38.6 and your BU:GU will be right on the money.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Yes that's right, with the 0.4 oz Challenger you'll have approximately 54 IBUs. This calculation works for bittering hops as well as the late hops, just add as many lines as you need to account for each hop addition separately. You can safely ignore the magic factor and double-check and FWH=FALSE, that's for my own purposes. I could send you a copy of my spreadsheet if interested in playing with it; however, it looks like you set up yours correctly though so there's no need.

If you are aiming for about 0.83 for BU:GU, eliminate the Challenger, and why not reduce the 10-minute hop addition to 5 minutes. This brings your IBUs to about 38.6 and your BU:GU will be right on the money.

Fantastic, thanks. I see that works well. I've actually revisited the approach and realized for true bitters I'm end-loading considerably, so pulled it back. This, I think, is pretty close:

Thanks, awesome utility! I know it's basically impossible to dial in actual IBUs, especially with WP. HS and variations therein (e.g., 1st WP addition at 194, wait 15, 2nd at 170, wait 15 then cool down....), but I appreciate the flexibility embedded in your formula. As I understand it, Beersmith 2 had the WP utilization factor as a variable you could set, but for some reason BS3 doesn't feature that. I think I read it presumes 50% utilization, which probably explains why it likely overshoots.

Thanks again. Tremendous help.

 

[dmtaylor]

Fantastic, thanks. I see that works well. I've actually revisited the approach and realized for true bitters I'm end-loading considerably, so pulled it back. This, I think, is pretty close:

View attachment 838527

Thanks, awesome utility! I know it's basically impossible to dial in actual IBUs, especially with WP. HS and variations therein (e.g., 1st WP addition at 194, wait 15, 2nd at 170, wait 15 then cool down....), but I appreciate the flexibility embedded in your formula. As I understand it, Beersmith 2 had the WP utilization factor as a variable you could set, but for some reason BS3 doesn't feature that. I think I read it presumes 50% utilization, which probably explains why it likely overshoots.

Thanks again. Tremendous help.

When you brew based on this, please let me know whether you achieve your goal, or whether it seems it's still a little over or under on the IBUs. I hope you will be pleased.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

When you brew based on this, please let me know whether you achieve your goal, or whether it seems it's still a little over or under on the IBUs. I hope you will be pleased.

Will do, and thanks.

 

[dmtaylor]

FYI - for anyone outside the USA, I edited my calculator post #12 above to address SI units of grams and liters. Basically you can use the same exact formula but simply divide your results by 7.5 to get the IBUs coming from grams and liters. Cheers all.

 

[dmtaylor]

I've published an updated downloadable sheet at the following path (sorry this won't work directly, needs to be downloaded to your own computer to use it, I'm not that web-savvy):

<http://tinyurl.com/TaylorIBUCalculator>

Taylor IBU Calculator

 

[IslandLizard]

IBU = oz * AA% * sqrt[4.6*(Boiltime+0.3*Whirlpooltime)] / V

Wouldn't wort temperature play an important role in this too?

For example, BeerSmith 3 includes settings for Whirlpool/Steep IBU calculations:

 

[day_trippr]

It appears the spreadsheet assumes all hop contributions are at boiling temperature...

Cheers!

 

[dmtaylor]

Wouldn't wort temperature play an important role in this too?

Yes. This is a simplification of Tinseth that includes whirlpool / hop stand functionality. Whirlpool hops are assumed to be around 170-ish Fahrenheit, which is fairly standard. If you download the tool, you can futz with the formulae whatever way you want. Maybe the 0.3 factor becomes 0.2 or something in that ballpark. Play with it. If you don't like this tool, there are others out there, many inferior, some superior, beauty in the eye of the beerholder, yadda yadda.

It appears the spreadsheet assumes all hop contributions are at boiling temperature...

Nope, not the whirlpool / hop stand, see above. Maybe later I'll add notes about all my assumptions.

 

[wepeeler]

For NEIPAs, most of the magic happens during the WP addition (and dry hop). The range in most of the literature is 165-180F, and I, and most others in the LONG NEIPA thread have settled on 170F for 15-25 min, depending on the hops utilized. You do get some bitterness, but from personal experience, it's negligible. I also throw in a few ounces at 5 min or so, but a lot of brewers are doing Flameout or WP additions only with great results.

Whoops lol. Nvm

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

BeerSmith 3 includes settings for

And for those interesting in "doing the math" directly, the BeerSmith blog has some articles that talk about adjustments altitude and sub-boiling temperatures.

​

​

 

[day_trippr]

Maybe later I'll add notes about all my assumptions.

Highly recommended for ambiguity reduction and question suppression