Problems Keeping O2 out of NEIPA (I think)

[ashopis]

Hello friends. I am at a homebrew impass and need some help. I brew many styles of beer but I have gotten stuck at NEIPA. I’m stuck because I just can’t get it right. My NEIPAs always come out with very muted hop flavor and aroma despite large dry hop additions. They also have a bitterness that is very pronounced initially, then fades somewhat over time. It’s not a nice bitterness.

I’m pretty sure that the culprit for the muted hops is oxygen but I don’t see how. I’ll share my process and maybe folks can offer me some suggestions. I’d be massively appreciative.

-I ferment in a Fermzilla all rounder.
-Sometimes I use a vapor lock, and sometimes I pressure ferment.
-I ferment at room temp usually using Lallemand’s Verdant yeast or Voss Kveik.
- I use a magnet to drop dry hops into the fermenter so o I don’t have to open it.
-I typically don’t cold crash. However, in winter, I sometimes move the fermenter into the cold garage and put 2-5 psi on it to prevent the sides from collapsing as it cools.
- For transfer I start by filling a keg with sanitizer and then pushing it out with CO2. So theoretically there’s only CO2 in the keg. Then I pressure transfer the fermented beer to the keg, letting the CO2 out with a spunding valve.
- Carbonation: I burst carb at 50 psi for 18 hrs.

I use the NEIPA recipe that Treehouse put out via their YouTube channel. It calls for 10.2 oz of dry hop divided equally between Amarillo, Citra, and Simco.

That’s it. I’m running out of things to try in terms of keeping oxygen out. Perhaps adding SMB when I transfer to the keg? I have shied away from this because I’d have to open the purged keg to add it.

Thanks for sticking with this long post. And thanks for any consideration anyone might give.

Cheers,
Adam

 

[tracer bullet]

Off the top, the process looks good. Have you noticed if the beer changes color? That's another oxidation sign. Memory would be tricky to ask yourself if it changed but maybe taking identical setup pictures (location, lighting, etc.) a week or two apart could somewhat say.

It might not be O2. I can say some yeasts are better than others for these beers, so you could consider a different one.

I am not too great with NEIPA's so I'll let someone else offer opinions. Just thinking of ways to see if it's O2 related. Process sounds quite good, it's basically what I do, and I'd say I have great flavors for at least a few weeks.

 

[day_trippr]

Yes, a picture could tell us a lot.

I don't see anything glaring to point at in the listed process. While I typically purge kegs with the fermentation gas emitted from the batch that will end up in the same pair of kegs, if I start a fermentation going before I have a pair of kegs available I'll later do the same "Star San Purge" as you.

Indeed, you're more aggressive wrt O2 avoidance: I briefly pop the caps off my pair of carboys to dump in the dry hops. No good way around that.

The one thing I do that isn't noted is I inject each purged keg with a teaspoon of ascorbic acid dissolved in 30ml of water before then filling with beer (closed CO2-push, of course - with transfer lines pre-purged with CO2). That has made a profound difference to my neipa shelf life to where I routinely have kegs on tap for six months and they are wonderful to their last drops. Highly recommended, this pour from last night was brewed the 2nd week of December...

Cheers!

 

[ashopis]

Yes, a picture could tell us a lot.

I don't see anything glaring to point at in the listed process. While I typically purge kegs with the fermentation gas emitted from the batch that will end up in the same pair of kegs, if I start a fermentation going before I have a pair of kegs available I'll later do the same "Star San Purge" as you.

Indeed, you're more aggressive wrt O2 avoidance: I briefly pop the caps off my pair of carboys to dump in the dry hops. No good way around that.

The one thing I do that isn't noted is I inject each purged keg with a teaspoon of ascorbic acid dissolved in 30ml of water before then filling with beer (closed CO2-push, of course - with transfer lines pre-purged with CO2). That has made a profound difference to my neipa shelf life to where I routinely have kegs on tap for six months and they are wonderful to their last drops. Highly recommended, this pour from last night was brewed the 2nd week of December...

View attachment 844867

Cheers!

Thanks for these thoughts. I will brew again soon. I’m. Thinking of making a video of each step. I’ll also take photos.

Here’s one more clue (maybe). The beer clears very quickly. In 2 weeks post carb it has lost nearly all haze.

Also. How do you add the ascorbic acid without opening the keg?

 

[day_trippr]

The picture we'd like to see is a pour of your troubled neipa.

Also. How do you add the ascorbic acid without opening the keg?

A syringe plugged into a gas QD stem...

Cheers!

 

[tracer bullet]

A syringe plugged into a gas QD stem...

I'm thinking a few different ways that could look but not quite sure any of them work. Mind a picture of that someday? I'd give the AA a try as well. I put some in my mash but nowhere after that. Have been curious though.

 

[BongoYodeler]

Interesting and relevant topic for me since I'm thinking my next brew day will be a hazy pale / session hazy ipa, and I brew more bad than good in this style. I recently picked up some ascorbic acid to add to my process. @day_trippr do you need to dissolve it in water, or are you doing that due to your delivery method? I was thinking prior to transferring just putting a tsp in my dry hop keg and one in my serving keg, sealing them up and letting fermentation purge them.

 

[ashopis]

I'm thinking a few different ways that could look but not quite sure any of them work. Mind a picture of that someday? I'd give the AA a try as well. I put some in my mash but nowhere after that. Have been curious though.

I’ll definitely include a picture with my next batch. I do use as Ascorbic acid. I add it with my mash salts.

Off the top, the process looks good. Have you noticed if the beer changes color? That's another oxidation sign. Memory would be tricky to ask yourself if it changed but maybe taking identical setup pictures (location, lighting, etc.) a week or two apart could somewhat say.

It might not be O2. I can say some yeasts are better than others for these beers, so you could consider a different one.

I am not too great with NEIPA's so I'll let someone else offer opinions. Just thinking of ways to see if it's O2 related. Process sounds quite good, it's basically what I do, and I'd say I have great flavors for at least a few weeks.

I’ll do a couple of shots for my next batch. Thanks!!!

 

[hotbeer]

I never was happy with most of the beers I made that called for dry hopping. So I just don't do it anymore.

It's not a thing I care to perfect when I get all the hoppy tastes I want from stuffing the aroma and flavor hops in at flame out.

If I'm somewhere where they do it well, I'm happy to drink their successes.

 

[day_trippr]

I use a 100ml syringe with a Luer Lock, trim the Luer lock collar off with a pair of side cutter dikes leaving the bare stem, which plugs nicely into a gas QD stem.

I always put a few psi of CO2 in each purged keg to help hold the lid seals tight while they wait to get filled, so I position the filled syringe in the gas QD stem, snap the QD down, let the CO2 pressure release out the QD, then plunge the solution in, and pop the QD off. Takes just a few seconds.

I suspect pre-loading raw ascorbic acid powder before going through the keg purge and then have it sitting in the keg bottom for perhaps a couple of weeks might not provide the same effectivity if there's any moisture in the keg at all - which there likely will be if using fermentation gases to purge kegs...

Cheers!

 

[BongoYodeler]

I use a 100ml syringe with a Luer Lock, trim the Luer lock collar off with a pair of side cutter dikes leaving the bare stem, which plugs nicely into a gas QD stem.

View attachment 844918 View attachment 844917

View attachment 844916 View attachment 844915

I always put a few psi of CO2 in each purged keg to help hold the lid seals tight while they wait to get filled, so I position the filled syringe in the gas QD stem, snap the QD down, let the CO2 pressure release out the QD, then plunge the solution in, and pop the QD off. Takes just a few seconds.

I suspect pre-loading raw ascorbic acid powder before going through the keg purge and then have it sitting in the keg bottom for perhaps a couple of weeks might not provide the same effectivity if there's any moisture in the keg at all - which there likely will be if using fermentation gases to purge kegs...

Cheers!

Thanks!!

 

[YeastFeast]

Hello friends. I am at a homebrew impass and need some help. I brew many styles of beer but I have gotten stuck at NEIPA. I’m stuck because I just can’t get it right. My NEIPAs always come out with very muted hop flavor and aroma despite large dry hop additions. They also have a bitterness that is very pronounced initially, then fades somewhat over time. It’s not a nice bitterness.

I’m pretty sure that the culprit for the muted hops is oxygen but I don’t see how. I’ll share my process and maybe folks can offer me some suggestions. I’d be massively appreciative.

-I ferment in a Fermzilla all rounder.
-Sometimes I use a vapor lock, and sometimes I pressure ferment.
-I ferment at room temp usually using Lallemand’s Verdant yeast or Voss Kveik.
- I use a magnet to drop dry hops into the fermenter so o I don’t have to open it.
-I typically don’t cold crash. However, in winter, I sometimes move the fermenter into the cold garage and put 2-5 psi on it to prevent the sides from collapsing as it cools.
- For transfer I start by filling a keg with sanitizer and then pushing it out with CO2. So theoretically there’s only CO2 in the keg. Then I pressure transfer the fermented beer to the keg, letting the CO2 out with a spunding valve.
- Carbonation: I burst carb at 50 psi for 18 hrs.

I use the NEIPA recipe that Treehouse put out via their YouTube channel. It calls for 10.2 oz of dry hop divided equally between Amarillo, Citra, and Simco.

That’s it. I’m running out of things to try in terms of keeping oxygen out. Perhaps adding SMB when I transfer to the keg? I have shied away from this because I’d have to open the purged keg to add it.

Thanks for sticking with this long post. And thanks for any consideration anyone might give.

Cheers,
Adam

Sounds like we've gone down the same path, except I started about 10 Hazy IPAs batches ago over several years. I was determined to make a brewery quality Hazy.

Things that made a big difference:
1.) Dry hop in the 50º-60ºF range. I drop hop at 55ºF and sit at this temp for several days before I drop the hops in. This completely got rid of my "hop burn" (harshness) which may be what you're describing as "bad bitterness". I used to get this BIG TIME before I started doing this. I have no bad bitterness after taste now even from day 1 in the keg. There's a lot of research out there about dropping yeast before dry hopping.
2.) Cold crash to 35º or so for a few days before transferring to the keg. Drops all the crap out and only gets the good stuff over to the keg.

Sounds like you're doing everything to keep o2 out which is vital. I've taken up using ascorbic acid to see if I can get them to last longer.

Good luck.

 

[ashopis]

Sounds like we've gone down the same path, except I started about 10 Hazy IPAs batches ago over several years. I was determined to make a brewery quality Hazy.

Things that made a big difference:
1.) Dry hop in the 50º-60ºF range. I drop hop at 55ºF and sit at this temp for several days before I drop the hops in. This completely got rid of my "hop burn" (harshness) which may be what you're describing as "bad bitterness". I used to get this BIG TIME before I started doing this. I have no bad bitterness after taste now even from day 1 in the keg. There's a lot of research out there about dropping yeast before dry hopping.
2.) Cold crash to 35º or so for a few days before transferring to the keg. Drops all the crap out and only gets the good stuff over to the keg.

Sounds like you're doing everything to keep o2 out which is vital. I've taken up using ascorbic acid to see if I can get them to last longer.

Good luck.

Thank you! I’m not able to drop the yeast, but I’ll definitely try dry hopping at 50 or so and cold crashing longer.

Much appreciated.

 

[Dog House Brew]

You could always use a swamp cooler w a frozen bottle to drop your temperature. I did that for a few years before I got temperature control. If you go that route, make sure to add some CO2. That’s where I found my issues. It came from the O2 ingress as I cooled my fermenter. I’ve not used AA, but I will now.