No my fingers typed something my brain did not think. OOOPS. Fixed.
Pressurized Closed Loop Corny Keg Fermenting
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stickyfinger
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Has anyone tried filling the SK with sanitizer/water and then pushing it out with fermentation gas? Is it necessary to elevate the SK so that a siphon doesn't start and pull in air somehow through the keg lid or something? I thought it would be cool to just be certain that I am getting 100% CO2 into my SK this way. Maybe it's overkill though.
I’ve been thinking about this since you asked in another thread.
Once fermentation starts, you could let a little pressure build in the FV in order to start the siphon in the SV out to another vessel which would have either a sounding valve or blow off installed on it?
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stickyfinger
Well-Known Member
yeah, that’s the idea. i thought i’d blow off my FV for a day and the hook it to a sanitizer-filled keg and let fermentation push the liquid out into a bucket that is above the level of the SV.
Gnomebrewer
Well-Known Member
Yes, I tried it. I did end up with a siphon running out, and if there was a slight temperature drop (causing lower than atmospheric pressure in the SK), a siphon running back in. It can probably be done (I only tried the once) but IMO it's easier to purge the SK first then flush further with fermentation CO2. I didn't try elevating the SK.
ttuato
Well-Known Member
I tried it and had same issue of the siphon going backwards into the fermenting beer due to temperature drop of keg full of air (fluctuates wildly) vs keg full of fluid (gradually temp changes) - that was the first problem, and a big one...
The second problem is that in order for the fermentation gas to push the liquid out it needs to build pressure both in FV & SK --- resulting in a "pressure ferment". For lagers & lager yeas - no problem as it helps keep things "clean". For NEIPA (85% of what I brew) - no thanks, I want those yeast esters. I A/B'd it side by side with a 1oz/gal dryhop with Conan and there was a noticeable difference - five others tasted blindly and could tell as well. My wife who has the better sense of smell said the pressure ferment was less aromatic.
stickyfinger
Well-Known Member
Awesome! Thanks for the feedback. I'll just purge a keg and then further purge it if I want to transfer over sometime.
The motivation for this was to try a split batch comparing the effect of racking vs just serving from primary. I was curious if I would like the flavor of one over the other: served out of primary using the CBDS vs transferring to a SK after a week or two in the keezer and then being able to flip the keg now and then to stir up any dropped out hoppiness.
The motivation for this was to try a split batch comparing the effect of racking vs just serving from primary. I was curious if I would like the flavor of one over the other: served out of primary using the CBDS vs transferring to a SK after a week or two in the keezer and then being able to flip the keg now and then to stir up any dropped out hoppiness.
ttuato
Well-Known Member
My suggestion based on my experience:
- FV - ferment in keg with CBDS - use fermentation gas to purge SV
- After FG drop temp to 55-58 for one day to clear out some yeast,
- At the beginning of day two at 55-58, attach CO2 to IN post, open lid and throw in dryhops freebird style
- After 18-24 hrs of dryhopping at 55-58, crash to 32-40 for approximately 12hrs - this crash will cause all of the hop matter to fall out but it will not be long enough drop out the "hoppiness", then transfer to purged SV
- SV will have all of the hoppiness and a little bit of yeast still but there will not be any issues with vegetal/grassy flavors from long term exposure of hops at cold temps while setting in the keg and you will be able to stir up any dropped out hoppiness without fear of hop matter
Dryhops only need 24hrs - repeated studies have shown max concentrations occur within 24hrs. Suggestions otherwise are merely tradition OR folks wanting more resin or vegetal flavors.
I just stick the squeezed hop bag inside a plastic bag, then stick a 10-15 psi CO2 hose inside the mesh bag and cinch it around the hose. Move it around a bit, and squeeze-purge it a few times. The squeezed hop bag goes into the keg while CO2 is streaming in through the gas port. I doubt much or any air/O2 makes it in there.
VirginiaHops1
Well-Known Member
I think I may have been a little hasty initially because this beer has rounded out really well at day 7 in the keg. I still think it isn't completely carbed but I like it a lot. I'm still going to play around with some of the other variables I mentioned in my previous post but I like this method. I'm brewing a batch today that I'm going to ferment in a corny keg.
I just did this with a lager and was somewhat surprised when the fermentation completely emptied the SK of star-san overnight. I did not observe any suckback, but everything (FV, SK, and star-san blowoff bucket) was pretty much at the same temp. I had the same thought as ttuato regarding pressure fermentation, as I did not want to subject the yeast to much pressure during the first couple of days. So I checked what the psi equivalent of ~20 inches of water is: it's less than 1 psi, so really not much pressure. I have no idea whether that amount of pressure reduces yeast esters (it might), but since I was brewing a lager, I didn't care.
Also, TIL (well, yesterday actually) that you can stack ball lock kegs on top of one another with the fittings attached! Perfect for gravity transferring between FV and SK, since you can jumper the liquid posts and the gas posts while the FV sits on top of the SK.
Gnomebrewer
Well-Known Member
I've started a new method to push the star-san out of the serving keg. When a ferment is finished, and has been closed-transferred to the serving keg(s), the ferment kegs are still nicely pressurised with CO2. I've been using that CO2 to purge the Star-san from the serving keg(s) for the next batch. They get further purging and more CO2 pressure during the next ferment as well. It only works if you have enough kegs though.
Now that you have been fermenting in a conical for a while, have you found it to be as easy if not easier to ferment beer in than kegs? Dry hop additions....are you still bagging those? Cold crashing.....? Transfers? Any pro's and cons list?
The conical did not make my process any easier. It was about net-equal for me. There are a few benefits i've been able to get:
1. I can reliably get 5 1/4 gallons of finished beer into a serving keg. I fill until beer is coming out the gas post. I've been able to dial in my volumes pretty well. This is the greatest benefit because i'm getting about 15% more finished beer every time i brew.
2. I added a perlick sampling port to the center of the conical. This makes taking samples much easier, less messy and much smaller sample size, than taking a sample with a short cobra tap on the liquid port.
3. It's much faster to finish cooling a batch during the warmer months when my water temps are higher. My freezers would only do about 5F/hr. This seems to do about 15-20F/hr.
Other than that....
It's harder to clean. There are a lot more parts. I bought it with the intention of CIP but it's not at all CIP friendly. Not even close.
Harvesting the yeast is a beyotch. I used to just swirl and tip the keg into a sanitized flask but this guy you can't swirl or tip. Sometimes the yeast comes out, sometimes it doesn't. I have an idea for a solution for this but haven't executed yet.
Overall i'm neutral about the benefits. If i had a do-over i wouldn't do it because it was >$2500 to get the fermenter, glycol, and all the other parts. The value isn't there.
Thank you for sharing! I guess I'll stick with the kegs for now.
I've only done this once but figured out a decent way to harvest yeast from the primary keg. After transferring to another vessel from the primary keg, I flip the primary keg upside down on my bench with my short sampling picnic tap set up attached to the the gas in post and gas attached to the out post. Of course the quick disconnects need to be switched to do this. Then I just push the yeast out of the keg into sterilized canning jars and cap. With the gas dip tube cut...I get all the yeast and it's a little easier to be sanitary and clean while harvesting the yeast.
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When i harvested from kegs i would just pop the lid and in 1 smooth motion tip the keg towards the floor (bottom on the counter top) with a flask ready to catch the liquid stream. Usually worked well.
My main disappointment with the conical was that i was hoping for it to reduce the amount of time i spent on brewing, but it didn't do that. Quite the opposite.
I just take all the hardware off and out of my kegs....poppets, lid, PRV, dip tubes...etc and put everything inside the keg and fill it with hot water and PBW. Easy...soak, dump, rinse, Star San, and put it back together.
I guess in order to clean a conical, you can not clean the various ported hardware throughly by putting them inside the conical and soaking due to the holes they come out of.
Thanks again for sharing. I’m sure this thread has helped a lot of people make better beer AND save some money.
It is possible to do a CIP with a conical, just not the one i have. The reason is that it has a coil. The shape of the coil makes cleaning with a spray ball impossible. The coil also shadows the ball spray so you can't hit everything. On a do-over i'd fork over the money for the jacketed conical.
All the fittings get clean recirculating PBW except for a few horizonal surfaces that need spray ball action, but are blocked by the coil.
Currently I spray the conical out in my big sink and then disassemble all the peices and put them in a 2 gallon bucket along with the bottom of the coil. That all soaks in hot PBW then i rinse with hot water, warm water, cold water and RO water before letting it air dry. Before use, i recirculate a few gallons of 180F RO water through it and the spray ball for 30 minutes for sanitizing.
I'd been thinking about this for a while but always got hung up on the fact that I wouldn't quite end up with a full 5 gallons of beer. But I've gotten over that and want to give it a try. I don't plan to spund just yet--I'll purge the serving keg with the fermentation gas, then transfer and carb with a tank gas.
Two questions:
1. Has anyone had trouble using a floating diptube in the fermenting keg getting clogged?
2. Is it just a matter of trial and error to figure out how much wort to put in the fermenting keg to avoid blowoff? Start with something like 4gallons, see how it goes, and adjust next time?
Two questions:
1. Has anyone had trouble using a floating diptube in the fermenting keg getting clogged?
2. Is it just a matter of trial and error to figure out how much wort to put in the fermenting keg to avoid blowoff? Start with something like 4gallons, see how it goes, and adjust next time?
I would highly recommend not using tank gas to carbonate. If you're going to transfer finished beer at least inject some priming sugar solution into the keg to let it naturally carbonate.
Is that just because of the impurity of the gas and resulting oxidation?
I do understand that concern, and if I end up sticking with fermenting in a keg, I'll get a spunding valve. I just want to try the process once or twice before buying anything else. Priming solution is easy enough, though, I can do that.
that and even the best closed transfer techniques will pick up some o2
Mer-man
Well-Known Member
1. I use a red cask widge in my FV keg (and my serving kegs) and the only time I had problems was loose pellet hops. I keg hop now, mostly so I can harvest Super clean yeast.
Made an APA yesterday with 001. Put about 4.5 gallons in, leaving just over 4" of headspace. Cut about 1.5" off the dip tube.
Mer-man
Well-Known Member
Did you add the atmospheric pressure of 14.5psi? Remember that a spund valve obscures the atmospheric pressure from the spunded volume.
But hmm, an open ferment is at atmospheric. So it must be additive somehow
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Don't confuse gauge pressure and absolute pressure.
Any issues with wlp090 at pressure or above a certain pressure? Started a 1.055 og pale ale at 66 for 4 days, bubbling slowed but not stopped from my blowoff so I capped with spund but didn’t check gravity first. I also upped temp to 70 at the same time to finish off. I get the feeling the answer is going to be “wait” but I just wanted to make sure this yeast isn’t fighting me cause it’s at pressure
I'd be interested in hearing more on question 1. I made a peach milkshake IPA and went to transfer it to my SK last night. My FV has the floating dip tube. I had a hell of a time getting it to transfer. I'm not sure if it was the floating tube, the amount of fruit/hops or carb level??? It seemed like even with a cold crash for a few days that the fruit didn't settling like it should. Could the spunding and carbing of the beer keep the fruit in suspension? I'm stumped
Yeast stop working at pressures in excess of 150PSI so you shouldn't worry about that. On the other hand, since you didn't measure gravity you should worry about not having enough fermentables to reach desired carbonation.
The fruit can trap CO2 in it from fermenting the sugars in it, causing it to float.
I tried to keep the question simple without adding too much info, which i tend to do, and then just confuse everyone that reads it. I though i had read that other yeasts don't love being under pressure, not that they throw off flavors, but that they slow down or stall entirely, and so i was curious if 090 was one of these.
I brewed this beer last Sunday 4/28, pitched at 64, set temp to 65. On Thursday night i bumped temp to 70 (probrewer forums suggestion) and threw on the spund at ~28PSI since ferm had slowed per my first post. I didnt take a reading Thursday, if i had i would have delayed the spund. On Friday, expecting to be able to dry hop, I did take a gravity reading, and it was at 1.020, which is what caused me to throw up the question. Predicted FG is 1.011, using 80% attenuation as suggested by brewers friend. Mash temp was 151, so it seemed reasonable i would hit that, also low caramel malts. its a ~4.5g batch, the grist is
7lbs 2 row
2lbs malted rye
5oz C60
10 oz carapils
This is my first use of 090, but everything i have read suggested it was going to chew through the wort. I wasnt expecting Kviek speed, but I've had Juice chew thru most of a beer in 4-5 days, so i expected similar. Since ferm was slowing on day 4 i had expected to be much closer to predicted terminal than 10 points off. I dropped the spund to ~20 at the time and I let that grav sample hang out at atmosphere over night (5/4) and ferm kicked up again, so it hasnt completely stalled. By the next day it was down to 1.018 or so, I then threw the small sample on a stir plate to attempt a forced ferm test, which resulted in 1.012, so the predicted grav seems reasonable, but without head pressure. Another sample taken monday night was only 1.015, so improving just VERY slowly, circling back to my question if anyone has had issues with the yeast stalling early with head pressure.
I'm not terribly worried even if it stopped at 1.015, just a tad sweeter than expected. more asking for next time i use this yeast (overbuilt starters) if i should let it go without the spund for full or faster attenuation. I'm also not terribly upset if i get 80% of the carb from spund and need to bottle gas to get it to 100%.
stickyfinger
Well-Known Member
when i do IPAs in cornys now I put the keg into the beer fridge after spunding and let it rest for at least a few days to a week before transferring to another keg. I had problems doing the gravity, closed-system transfer so now I push it out at about 20psi and use a spund valve on the receiving keg set slightly lower, maybe 15 psi. works well.
LittlejohnBrew
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Do any of you ever transfer to a keg that has recently been finished and not cleaned? I have a pale ale that probably has only a few pints left and thinking about leaving it in the kegerator once done and kept cold under pressure. I have a raspberry wheat ale fermenting now and considering using the pale ale keg as my serving keg.
Seems like the residual trub from the pale ale will be diluted and dropped out after the wheat ale is transfer and left to cold crash for a few days. Also kept cold and under pressure risk of contamination should be minimal. Or maybe this is a bad idea and I shouldn't be such a lazy bum?
Seems like the residual trub from the pale ale will be diluted and dropped out after the wheat ale is transfer and left to cold crash for a few days. Also kept cold and under pressure risk of contamination should be minimal. Or maybe this is a bad idea and I shouldn't be such a lazy bum?
Gnomebrewer
Well-Known Member
Yes, I've done it. Contamination risk is low. I've only done it where the new beer used the same yeast as the previous one though.
Following. Thanks for all the info.
jerrylotto
Well-Known Member
Instead of bending the dip tube, what about putting a cup under it? Maybe the plastic inside of a bubbler? That way, liquid would have to enter at the top of the cup, off the bottom and you don't need to mess with your tubing. Add some mesh aournd the top of the cup to filter out dry hops too.
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VirginiaHops1
Well-Known Member
Something like this will work. What I do is use one of those mesh hop canisters and drill a hole in the top for the dip tube to enter. You'll still likely have to modify your dip tube though. I have to cut a little bit off mine to shorter it, because it doesn't have that valley in the bottom of the keg to sit in with the canister there.
cheesebach
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Has anyone here who'd made the switch from fermenting 5 gallons in buckets or similarly wide vessels to fermenting in 5g corny kegs noticed any impact on the typical attenuation due to the switch? I've recently had a couple of beers (using WY1968, so a very flocculent strain) stall out around 1.030 (about 10 points higher than expected based on the OG of 1.070 and recipe) and was wondering whether the tall/narrow aspect of the keg could be a contributing factor due to the yeast bed having a smaller surface area relative to the volume. I probably should just avoid using this yeast again in the future, but I'm curious about what could be causing it, since the mash pH and efficiency numbers all seemed to be on target.
tieflyer
Well-Known Member
ok, i love the idea of doing this!!! But dumb question, i would like to ferment in a keg, then have it moved to my serving keg, but also be able to maybe bottle half of the batch. Yes i know, why bottle if I have it in serving keg?, well i would like to brew a batch with a buddy of mine, and then give him half of the brew in bottles so he can drink it whenever he feels like it instead of having to come over to my place and either grab a growler of it, or whatever.
I have seen the posts to build a beer gun etc, but that's beyond me right now so wasn't sure how to move it out to bottles.
I have seen the posts to build a beer gun etc, but that's beyond me right now so wasn't sure how to move it out to bottles.
jerrylotto
Well-Known Member
Low pressure and a bottling wand does all that you need. Or you can move half to your serving keg and the other half to a bottling bucket.
