Pressurized Closed Loop Corny Keg Fermenting

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Thanks for the updates! And actually, the above does bear out! I just cold crashed a beer at 8psi at 70°F(11 gallons in a 1/2bbl sanke fermenter), and once it hit 32° the spunding read 0psi. I spent a good amount of time before using the sanke testing how well it held pressure, and it is solid up to 20psi or so, so I don’t think it was leaks or anything.

Next time I’ll try 10psi and see what happens.


Thanks!
 
I set the gas out as a blow off first then switch to the spunding 20psi... other pic of the transfer
 

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I bought it way...I like that it has 4inch tri clamp..it it easy for me to get my hand in
 
After studying this awesome thread for a while I finally got around to trying it out and effed up a little... I was hoping to get your advice on whether or not I should use the serving keg with the second dry hop addition. When I jumped the FV to the SV there was so much activity (or I did something wrong) that a bunch of beer transferred over to the SV. So right now I've got a majority of the beer still in the FV with a small amount of beer/yeast and DDH in the SV. My feeling is that is should be fine to transfer over to the SV. Any help would be greatly appreciated!!

Baldilocks_Brewing said:
I ferment in corny kegs - always do split batches of 7gal - 3.5gal into each keg.
Day 0 - fermenting keg, water purged and wort added.
Day 0 - serving keg, water purged then dryhop added (keg hops) - hold for now
12-24hrs - gas "in" from fermenting keg to "out" of serving keg with dryhops. "In" of serving keg to sanitzer so that ferment gas flows thru bith an escapes. This CO2 purging continued until about 60-72hrs post pitch.
60-72hrs - biotrans dryhop added to fermenting keg. Gas out removed from serving keg to allow pressure to build in both fermenting & serving kegs. Spund to 22lbs. Separate & seal serving keg.
Day 10 cold crash fermenting keg for two days.
Day 12 transfer to serving keg for the final dryhop (serving keg still pressurized) beer naturally carbed from spund.
Day 14 chill, gas and serve
Click to expand...
 
Adam Zerwick said:
After studying this awesome thread for a while I finally got around to trying it out and effed up a little... I was hoping to get your advice on whether or not I should use the serving keg with the second dry hop addition. When I jumped the FV to the SV there was so much activity (or I did something wrong) that a bunch of beer transferred over to the SV. So right now I've got a majority of the beer still in the FV with a small amount of beer/yeast and DDH in the SV. My feeling is that is should be fine to transfer over to the SV. Any help would be greatly appreciated!!
Click to expand...

Use it.
It should be fine as long as you’ve kept it low o2....purged and then purged through fermentation.

I’d be interested to see if this technique works with the hops in the serving keg....any loss of aroma/flavor due to extended time with blow off attached and at fermentation temp. Compared to other dry hopping methods of course.
 
Siouxerbrewer said:
Do you mind sharing your yeast harvesting technique with the kegmenter please? Cool setup!
Click to expand...
First. No disrespect to the thread starter.. My learning curve was more of a Beer shower.. thanks.now you can roast me.. okay I choose this set up for a reason. But first I need explain the process.I am not a"Beer Troll" kegmenter is the primary , I ferment for two weeks or more under pressure mostly 20 PSI on spunding.. Transfer day. prep receiving keg or kegs . you know starsan. The primary keg is still under 20 PSI. I will put a pinic tap on the gas and pull a taste.it will pull from the bottom some yeast and trub and beer..if all is good..look at my thread,as I do not take readings NEVER...if it's still good .... I will pull the prv to release or Purge all the pressure.then I will put gas on at 5psi from the co2.. the receiving keg I will Purge fill it and Purge..the liquid out side of the primary to the liquid out side of the receiving keg .pull up the prv on the receiving keg .. Hook up primary liquid first the receiving keg..... Transfer the beer it will have some trub and yeast in the line at first but it will run clear. This the reason I got this keg . because it has ball locks...wh wh you see the transfer line change ... what happens I think is the area around the dip tube collapse the cone.... yes what you have in the line is some trub and yeast..... take off the liquid lines and put the picnic tap on.. I will have a half gallon Mason jar to use.. of course it's starsan ..IMG_20181124_132831.jpg
IMG_20181124_132831.jpg
...b pale took off into the first phase with in 45 minutes of pitching.
 
I've been watching this thread for a while, and finally got around to fermenting in kegs recently. Now about a dozen batches in and finding it's really easy and produces some great beer. I had previously tried spunding after running the primary ferment in plastic fermenters (as part of a LoDo trial) but prefer fermenting in cornies and then transferring to serving kegs via a closed loop - it's so easy. This thread has been very helpful, so thankyou! I think, after many years of brewing and hundreds of batches, that this has made one of the biggest improvements to my beer.
 
4of7 said:
It is the same process with corny kegs.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the detailed reply! I’m building a similar setup for now and this thread has been very informative. It’s going to be awhile before I get to brewing again, but when I do I hope to contribute to this thread.
 
Siouxerbrewer said:
Thanks for the detailed reply! I’m building a similar setup for now and this thread has been very informative. It’s going to be awhile before I get to brewing again, but when I do I hope to contribute to this thread.
Click to expand...
I didn't start the thread., I just posted on it... I was chasing info like many..if you get a beer shower doing this.. happened to me
Lol... couple of times... learning curve so I tell myself..
 
I'm working on something new for this thread. I think it's going to be awesome. Unfortunately I won't be brewing for at least 3 months (work) so I will have to post back then.
 
Lol. Yes it is Beer Force I'm working on a way include temp control (neoprene covering a fermwrap on the keg) and a thermowell in the lid, along with a top croppingblow off assembly. Ferment in the keezer, top cropping the yeast.
 
anyone have any more input on fermenting and serving from the same keg using a CBDS? i did a split batch at about 1.076, using 95% pale malt, 2.5% each of munich 10L and carahell 10L. added 6 oz citra to one and mosaic to another (4G in a 5G keg with 0.25G start to each) on day 3 and then rack on day 8. they taste absolutely amazing one day after chilling. i hope they don't get grassy. i've had some of my ferment in and serve in the same kegs go grassy, but they were using the german hops - the hallertau blanc in particular tasted awful. it was like 6 oz in a 4.5G volume fermented and served from the same keg. malt was all-Pils.
 
stickyfinger said:
anyone have any more input on fermenting and serving from the same keg using a CBDS? i did a split batch at about 1.076, using 95% pale malt, 2.5% each of munich 10L and carahell 10L. added 6 oz citra to one and mosaic to another (4G in a 5G keg with 0.25G start to each) on day 3 and then rack on day 8. they taste absolutely amazing one day after chilling. i hope they don't get grassy. i've had some of my ferment in and serve in the same kegs go grassy, but they were using the german hops - the hallertau blanc in particular tasted awful. it was like 6 oz in a 4.5G volume fermented and served from the same keg. malt was all-Pils.
Click to expand...

I’ve had some good luck doing this with beers without any dry hops, and I think it may become my standard process for those. Not necessarily because I’ve noticed a quality difference, just because it’s easy. I only have one CBDS for now though - waiting to try it with a few more batches before I go all in on a couple more.

However, for IPAs, I think I’ve been noticing that I need some sort of post-fermentation dry hop for my tastes. For those, I’ve had issues opening the keg to add hops with any sort of carbonation level already present. My best results so far with NEIPA have been fermenting and spunding with a bio transformation hop at day 1-2. The fermenter has a full length screen around the dip tube and I chill to 60F after fermentation to drop the hops. Then, I water purge and add dry hops to a serving keg with the CBDS while flowing in CO2. From there, I can transfer under pressure without a foam volcano.

I will probably try it one more time, saving all dry hops for post fermentation and seeing if having no dry hops present already in the pressurized fermenter makes it any easier to open without a mess.
 
cheesebach said:
I’ve had some good luck doing this with beers without any dry hops, and I think it may become my standard process for those. Not necessarily because I’ve noticed a quality difference, just because it’s easy. I only have one CBDS for now though - waiting to try it with a few more batches before I go all in on a couple more.

However, for IPAs, I think I’ve been noticing that I need some sort of post-fermentation dry hop for my tastes. For those, I’ve had issues opening the keg to add hops with any sort of carbonation level already present. My best results so far with NEIPA have been fermenting and spunding with a bio transformation hop at day 1-2. The fermenter has a full length screen around the dip tube and I chill to 60F after fermentation to drop the hops. Then, I water purge and add dry hops to a serving keg with the CBDS while flowing in CO2. From there, I can transfer under pressure without a foam volcano.

I will probably try it one more time, saving all dry hops for post fermentation and seeing if having no dry hops present already in the pressurized fermenter makes it any easier to open without a mess.
Click to expand...


So is that IPA already carbonated before your transfer to the serving keg with hops in it?
 
leesmith said:
So is that IPA already carbonated before your transfer to the serving keg with hops in it?
Click to expand...

Yep, it seems that as long as the serving keg is at or near the same pressure of the spunding keg and the whole closed system stays under pressure during transfer, there isn’t much foaming issue when transferring onto the hops in the SK. For me, it seems like the floating dip tube in the SK may be necessary when going this route though. The first time I tried it, I was using a full length dip tube (the one Janish recommends), and while the transfer went well, I was getting a lot of astringency from the hops when pulling from near the bottom of the keg.
 
cheesebach said:
Yep, it seems that as long as the serving keg is at or near the same pressure of the spunding keg and the whole closed system stays under pressure during transfer, there isn’t much foaming issue when transferring onto the hops in the SK. For me, it seems like the floating dip tube in the SK may be necessary when going this route though. The first time I tried it, I was using a full length dip tube (the one Janish recommends), and while the transfer went well, I was getting a lot of astringency from the hops when pulling from near the bottom of the keg.
Click to expand...

Thanks
I’m going to transfer my beer off the yeast into a keg with hops and the Scott Janish dip tube screen and I was thinking about adding some sugar to carb it at the same time as dry hop....then once carbonated and cold conditioned, transfer to a serving keg.
My worry is the screen could cause too much foaming during transfer.
 
leesmith said:
Thanks
I’m going to transfer my beer off the yeast into a keg with hops and the Scott Janish dip tube screen and I was thinking about adding some sugar to carb it at the same time as dry hop....then once carbonated and cold conditioned, transfer to a serving keg.
My worry is the screen could cause too much foaming during transfer.
Click to expand...
Your serving keg just needs to be pressurized during transfer. If you go back to the start of the thread that’s why they pressurize the serving keg with the fermentation co2. I don’t do the full method and instead do what cheesebach described above with a cbds. During transfer to my serving keg I move my spund to the gas in on the serving keg and set it to 5 or 10 psi, then do a force transfer over with a few psi above my spund setpoint. Havent had foaming problems yet
 
DaveGillespie said:
I haven't dry hopped under pressure yet, so it would be cool if some of you folks who are doing so already and getting results they are happy with could outline their schedule eg. What pressures, for how long, when you are adding your dry hops, whether the whole fermentation is under pressure or just spunding, etc
Click to expand...

To add another data point to the thread, I recently tried dry hopping under pressure for the first time. I closed transferred after 8 days in primary to a purged keg with bagged dry hops and put it under about 4-6 psi(read with spunding valve). Recipe was Trillium-ish, 70% 2 row, 20% white wheat, the rest crystal and carapils. Galaxy/columbus hops. I tried a taste yesterday after 4 days in the keg and the hop flavors and aroma seemed very subdued, so I'd say I'm less than impressed BUT it's very early so I'm going to give it another week in the keg and try again.
 
did you monitor gravity before and after day 8? an ale likely was done around day 3-5. adding hops after that is how you oxidize and get the subdued flavors.
 
VirginiaHops1 said:
with bagged dry hops [...] after 4 days in the keg and the hop flavors and aroma seemed very subdued
Click to expand...
That may be due to the bag being much too constrictive. The beer can't permeate freely to extract the flavor and aroma compounds from the (compacted) hop mass, unless the bag is very roomy and you agitate it periodically. At what temps is that keg being kept?
VirginiaHops1 said:
I closed transferred after 8 days in primary to a purged keg with bagged dry hops
Click to expand...
How did you purge the keg and add the hops? How did you do that, eliminating O2 content and ingress?
 
schematix said:
did you monitor gravity before and after day 8? an ale likely was done around day 3-5. adding hops after that is how you oxidize and get the subdued flavors.
Click to expand...

I forgot to check gravity but I suspect it was done. To be clear though, I didn't open anything and drop in the dry hop charge. I put them in the dry hop keg and purged it, and then closed transferred in. I know the dry hop keg wasn't 100% purged but I was hoping to minimize O2 that way. I was planning to experiment with transferring sooner(maybe day 3ish) and have built a spunding valve mainly for that purpose. What I'm moving towards is fermenting in a corny and using fermentation CO2 to purge my dry hop keg, which should further limit O2. Probably next batch.

My thoughts on the different variables here I want to test going forward :

-dry hopping with vs without pressure
-transferring into dry hop keg during active fermentation vs when it's done
-transferring into dry hop keg after fermentation is done and after a cold crash to strip as much yeast as possible. I have read theories that dry hop oils get dragged out of beer when the yeast floccs.

Do you have any feedback with any or all of those scenarios what's given you the best results?
 
IslandLizard said:
That may be due to the bag being much too constrictive. The beer can't permeate freely to extract the flavor and aroma compounds from the (compacted) hop mass, unless the bag is very roomy and you agitate it periodically. At what temps is that keg being kept?

How did you purge the keg and add the hops? How did you do that, eliminating O2 content and ingress?
Click to expand...

I tried to find the biggest hop bag I have but I was concerned with that. I want to devise a way to put the hops in loose and construct a big filter around my dip tube. Until I can figure that out I think next time I'm going to use my big cheap BIAB bag to bag the dry hops and get a nicer one to mash with.

I sealed the keg up with the dry hops and then purged a few times. I know that doesn't 100% eliminate O2, but should get it fairly close.
 
IslandLizard said:
How did you purge the keg and add the hops? How did you do that, eliminating O2 content and ingress?
Click to expand...
OK, you answered that while our messages crossed. Not ideal, purging a keg filled with air 'never' reduces O2 content to the needed minimal levels, hence the need for a 100% liquid pre-purge.
You could then stream CO2 in while removing the lid and dropping a CO2 purged bag inside slowly. That would prevent or at least limit O2 ingress greatly.
 
IslandLizard said:
OK, you answered that while our messages crossed. Not ideal, purging a keg filled with air 'never' reduces O2 content to the needed minimal levels, hence the need for a 100% liquid pre-purge.
You could then stream CO2 in while removing the lid and dropping a CO2 purged bag inside slowly. That would prevent or at least limit O2 ingress greatly.
Click to expand...

Does that really limit O2 that much more than purging a sealed keg? Seems like both would get close to 100% purged but not quite there. But yeah I guess the liquid pre-purge may get it a little closer.

My ideal process as least as I envision is ferment in corny hooked to the dry hop keg to purge with fermentation CO2. Then either water purge the serving keg or daisy chain that one in and have it also purged with fermentation gas. I plan to give that a go next
 
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VirginiaHops1 said:
Does that really limit O2 that much more than purging a sealed keg? Seems like both would get close to 100% purged but not quite there.
Click to expand...
Big, big difference! There are threads on this forum with graphs and tables showing residual O2 using various methods. The 100% liquid pre-purge is a big step forward, with some attention to small detail you can get that to nearly 100% perfect O2 free. We want to keep the residual DO in beer in the single digit ppb range!
VirginiaHops1 said:
My ideal process as least as I envision is ferment in corny hooked to the dry hop keg to purge with fermentation CO2. Then either water purge the serving keg or daisy chain that one in and have it also purged with fermentation gas. I plan to give that a go next
Click to expand...
Something like that would work, but... letting damp hops sit in a vessel being purged for several days with massive amounts of CO2 is not going to do them any favor.

I'm using a lot of CO2 counterflow techniques to keep O2 ingress from happening when working with all beer, not just hoppy ones. I use plastic fermentation buckets (with "airtight" lids) and drilled a 1" access hole in some lids. That makes it easy to take samples, add dry hops, syrups, fruit pulp, etc. as well as allowing me to stir periodically, all while streaming in CO2 through the airlock stem. The back end of long plastic brew spoons have a small paddle, works like a charm.
 
I don't liquid purge my kegs anymore as i described in post #1 (although it's still a great and highly effective method). Now I use the fermentation gas to purge a cleaned, sanitized and dried keg.

The liquid purge now comes when i fill the keg with beer. I fill it until beer is flowing out of the (cut dip tube) GAS post. Since the atmosphere inside the keg has been mostly purged by the fermentation gas, there isn't much O2 to come into contact with the beer during that time. Also what little bit of gas does remain is also very low in O2 and spunding will take care of it.
 
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IslandLizard said:
Sorry, I should have said "flushing" the bag of hops with CO2.
Click to expand...

Still...is it just a matter of putting the bagged hops in a container....somehow getting a co2 hose in there and then purge...burb...purge...burp for however long....then while running the gas hooked up to keg...open lid of keg...quickly open lid of container with hops and dropping in...close and purge keg?
 
schematix said:
....I fill it until beer is flowing out of the (cut dip tube) liquid post. Since the atmosphere inside the keg has been mostly purged by the fermentation gas, there isn't much O2 to come into contact with the beer during that time. Also what little bit of gas does remain is also very low in O2 and spunding will take care of it.
Click to expand...

So you fill the keg through the gas in post?
 

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