poured wort on sanitizer solution - HELP!

[cklages]

I'm going to totally agree with that, I don't think anyones going to get hurt. Beer might taste bad, but I don't think its dangerous.

 

[drkered]

I can't believe I've never made that mistake, thanks for the warning, and if it was me I wouldn't drink it unless extremely desperate.

 

[kbuzz]

I think I'm going to see this through if it ferments...but I don't know that I'll even get that far...still isn't fermenting after about 30 or so hours...usually have lift off by now...we'll see if the yeast survive

Thanks for all the responses you guys...I appreciate the help.

 

[408Brewer]

This kind of stuff makes me never want to try someone elses homebrew. I think I will stick to my own.......

 

[aidan]

I think I'm going to see this through if it ferments...but I don't know that I'll even get that far...still isn't fermenting after about 30 or so hours...usually have lift off by now...we'll see if the yeast survive

Thanks for all the responses you guys...I appreciate the help.

That doesn't surprise me, I would expect it to kill the yeast (that's why I asked you if it had started fermenting). However, if it breaks down with time - and that's what you need to find out before you write it off - then it might be worth re-pitching.

 

[Chad]

It's not that easy clean...it's just a phrase that I think they use to refer to the no-rinse aspect of it.

Just read the label - "No Rinse Powdered Cleanser - Dissolve 1 Tbs per one gallon of warm water. Wash surfaces with solution. No rinsing is required..."

Cleanser is NOT sanitizer. They are very different things.

Pouring beer into some StarSan, no big deal.

Pouring beer into a cleaning solution, very big deal.

 

[theredben]

Cleanser is NOT sanitizer. They are very different things.

Pouring beer into some StarSan, no big deal.

Pouring beer into a cleaning solution, very big deal.

Actually, in the case of oxy-clean there is no difference between cleaner and sanitizer. Only a difference in regulations and labelling laws.

And if you bothered to check on your facts you would know that this much sodium percarbonate is also "no big deal".

 

[Chad]

Actually, in the case of oxy-clean there is no difference between cleaner and sanitizer. Only a difference in regulations and labelling laws.

And if you bothered to check on your facts you would know that this much sodium percarbonate is also "no big deal".

<sigh> Remind me never to drink your beer. Oxyclean is not a sanitizer. Oxidizers are only effective against gram negative anaerobic bacteria.

From the Material Data Safety Sheet for Oxiclean

Effects of Overexposure-Ingestion: Irritation to blistering of mucosal membranes. Pain, vomiting, diarrhea, CNS depression.

If you want to drink that, go ahead.

 

[Jsmith82]

I'd dump it, but please dump it properly. Salute, a home brew while you do it, and some nice words would be appropriate; perhaps an apology. Never forget.

(really though, and it sucks, but I'd dump it; that's my 2 cents)

 

[DogFace_Brewing]

This thread is still going...wow...just dump t already! LOL Why would you ever consider drinking this and risking your health...just dump it and move on.

 

[ChshreCat]

I just drove to the hospital to ask Revvy. He says to dump it.

 

[cklages]

There seems to be some concern about the safety of sodium percarbonate, I thought that perhaps a reference might help.

This comes from http://www.heraproject.com/files/6-F-04-HERA percarbonate full web wd.pdf

When consumers are exposed to sodium percarbonate, neither hydrogen peroxide nor sodium carbonate will be systemically available due to their effective detoxification (degradation or neutralisation) in the body. Consequently it is to be expected that the concentration of hydrogen peroxide and sodium in the blood and the pH of the blood will not be increased. Therefore, neither sodium percarbonate itself nor hydrogen peroxide or carbonate will reach the organs or the foetus and there is no risk for systemic, developmental or reproductive toxicity. With regard to genotoxicity and carcinogenicity the properties of sodium percarbonate also resemble those of hydrogen peroxide and it can be concluded that there is no concern for humans with regard to a possible genotoxicity or carcinogenicity of sodium percarbonate. The only critical endpoint for sodium percarbonate seems to be local irritation.

 

[kbuzz]

well...now it's fermenting...had an inch of krausen when I got home from work today - so the yeast survived! I almost wish it hadn't fermented, would have taken away the need to make a decision. I also got an email reply from the manufacturer today. The response was a little bit annoying. I asked specifically what the compound was that they use and I never got a reply to that. I was just told that it is not safe to consume and that I need to "start over".

She makes it sound so easy

 

[hamiltont]

I can't believe you're still contemplating your decision. Start over... Really, start over man!!! Dump it & brew sober! Cheers!!!

 

[aidan]

well...now it's fermenting...had an inch of krausen when I got home from work today - so the yeast survived! I almost wish it hadn't fermented, would have taken away the need to make a decision. I also got an email reply from the manufacturer today. The response was a little bit annoying. I asked specifically what the compound was that they use and I never got a reply to that. I was just told that it is not safe to consume and that I need to "start over".

She makes it sound so easy

Wow, I'm a bit surprised that it actually started fermenting - those yeast are hardy little bastards! Yeah I'd expect the manufacturer to advise against drinking it. Too bad they didn't tell you exactly what's in it as then you'd be able to get the info on the safety of it independently - maybe still worth perusing them to get an answer to that (tell them you've drunk it already and your doctor needs to know what's in it). Man, I dunno, the fact that the yeast are thriving on it does seem to give it some hope.

 

[theredben]

Oxidizers are only effective against gram negative anaerobic bacteria.
QUOTE]

Not wanting to start an arguement, but that is not true. For people searching this thread in the future, just look it up for yourself.

 

[tchuklobrau]

Well if ChshreCat actually drove 2 the hospital and asked Revvy and he said dump I'd dump it.

 

[Chad]

Oxidizers are only effective against gram negative anaerobic bacteria.
QUOTE]

Not wanting to start an arguement, but that is not true. For people searching this thread in the future, just look it up for yourself.

That is my understanding after a good bit of research. That's why I don't use oxygen cleaners as sanitizers. I'm willing to be proven wrong if you have a credible source.

edited to add: I write about food science for a living. I don't like to think I might have given bad advice, so, seriously, if you have a source that suggests that oxygen cleaners make a reasonable sanitizer -- and are safe to drink -- please share it.

 

[theredben]

Oxygen based cleaner are used for cleaning fish eggs of fungus, they are used to sterilize many things at hospitals, can be used to disinfect vegetables of bacteria, and we are researching them at work for plant foliar fungal diseases.

In the end though, because they are deactivated by organic deposits, they are not really the best choice for homebrewers. I don't use them myself but have no issue with others using them until they use up the box.

Control of algea

Fish eggs fungal control

Various items in hospitals (vapour phase, but should still be applicable)

And one on bacterial on vegetables

 

[bruin_ale]

Oxygen based cleaner are used for cleaning fish eggs of fungus, they are used to sterilize many things at hospitals, can be used to disinfect vegetables of bacteria, and we are researching them at work for plant foliar fungal diseases.

In the end though, because they are deactivated by organic deposits, they are not really the best choice for homebrewers. I don't use them myself but have no issue with others using them until they use up the box.

Control of algea

Fish eggs fungal control

Various items in hospitals (vapour phase, but should still be applicable)

And one on bacterial on vegetables

You're saying you wouldn't use them as a cleaner or as a sanitizer? I just used oxyclean as a cleaner for the first time and it worked very much the same or better than PBW (of which I still have a mostly full tub as well). I'll still be rinsing that and using StarSan to sanitize.

 

[theredben]

You're saying you wouldn't use them as a cleaner or as a sanitizer? I just used oxyclean as a cleaner for the first time and it worked very much the same or better than PBW (of which I still have a mostly full tub as well). I'll still be rinsing that and using StarSan to sanitize.

I don't use it as a cleaner, just because I don't have any around the house. It works great though. I don't use it as a sanitizer because of the issue with how it breaks down in contact with soils. If you keep your equipment very, very clean it works great, but I am not that OCD.

 

[NPK]

The reason I brew my own beer is to make a quality product cheaper than I can buy it. If someone gave you a beer and told you 1/5 of it was cleansing solution, you would (should) dump it out in front of their face. You need to do the same to your batch, fermenting or not.

I've brewed three batches using the LD Carlson stuff like it's sanitizer. After I've thoroughly washed, of course. For some reason, I didn't know any better and I haven't had any apparent problems. I do, however, want to try some StarSan before my next batch.

 

[Hoodweisen]

Dont listen to these wusses see it till the end!
If that stuff breaks down into hydrogen peroxide then all that will happen is itll make you puke.
My wifes cat ate house insulation and the vet told us to immediatly give it hydrgen peroxide so i did and about five minutes later he threw up and he was just fine!

 

[petey_c]

I'm not surprised that the manufacturer told you to dump it. You're probably gonna be safe and they know it, but in the tinniest, remote-est, unlikely possibility that you weren't, they could tell your lawyers, "We told him to start over." This thread will certainly save me much research time. "Hell, kbuzz had a gallon of H2O and sanitizer and it didn't kill him..." Well, not right away, anyway.

 

[kbuzz]

"Hell, kbuzz had a gallon of H2O and sanitizer and it didn't kill him..."

Let's hope you're right, cause I don't think I'm going to be able to pour this out.

I don't know how many of you have poured a batch out before it reached the bottle, but let me tell you this much...don't ever screw a brew up so bad that you have to make this decision...because I don't think that most of us would be able to pick up a carboy mid-fermentation and dump it...I just can't do it, man.

EDIT: just got another email reply from the manufacturer...had an attachment with the MSDS sheet on the specific product...contains Sodium Percarbonate as originally suspected, but is also made up of about half Sodium Sulfate...any thoughts on the latter? MSDS on Sodium Sulfate says: Mildly toxic by ingestion. Systemic toxicity is unlikely unless massive amounts have been swallowed. Drinking water with > 500 mg/L may result in gastrointestinal irritation. Sounds like more of the same to me and my decision hasn't changed much. Am now wondering if this changes anyone's opinion on using this as a sanitizer...on the MSDS for the Easyclean, it says the product class is "Powder Bleach Destainer". Bleach is a commonly used sanitizer, no?

 

[cklages]

Sodium sulphate is not really toxic strictly speaking, here is an excerpt from HERA

Consumer exposure
As demonstrated in Annex 1, even under worst-case conditions, consumer exposure to sodium sulfate from detergents leads to an estimated uptake of 0.1mg/kg/d, which compared to the normal daily intake of 7.5 mg/kg day is negligible.
The available data confirm the low acute and (sub)chronic toxicity profile of sodium sulfate. Acute toxicity effects seen in humans were limited to diarrhoea after a single dose in excess of 300 mg/kg, presumably due to hygroscopic action of non-absorbed sodium sulfate in the gut Taken over an entire day in drinking water, doses of up to 1200 mg/kg were tolerated without any effect in humans?? [couldn’t find this data on the SIDS summary, where is this coming from?]. Tentatively, a NOAEL for repeated dose toxicity (for rats) has been established at 320 mg/kg/d (i.e. the top dose in a 44 week study with limited validity); pathology at higher levels in shorter studies in various species was mainly related to dehydration. Sodium sulfate is not suspected of being a carcinogen nor a reprotoxic or teratogenic agent. It is not mutagenic in vitro and in vivo, and it does not seem to have a sensitising potential
HERA – Cover Note of Sodium sulfate 7757-82-6. page 5 of 50
Conclusion (human health)
Sodium sulfate is ubiquitous in nature, it is naturally present in common foodstuffs, has wide dispersive use and is added to processed food and beverages. Potential consumer exposure to sodium sulfate as a consequence of its presence in household laundry & cleaning products is expected to be several orders of magnitude below the rat's NOAEL and of little significance when compared with the normal dietary intake. The available information is judged to be adequate for concluding that the use of sodium sulfate in household laundry and cleaning products raises no safety concerns for consumers.

300 mg per kg is a little lower than the threshold for sodium carbonate, but still, if you used 1 tablespoon of that mixture, and half of that was sodium sulphate that was about 10 grams. If you weigh 70 kg, you should be able to eat 21 grams before you get the poops. So that would be around 11 gallons of beer. Seems you probably would have worse problems after that level of alcohol consumption though. The sulphate might increase the perceived bitterness of your hops, but I don't know much about that.

 

[Jsmith82]

Mildly toxic by ingestion. Systemic toxicity is unlikely unless massive amounts have been swallowed. Drinking water with > 500 mg/L may result in gastrointestinal irritation

You named this bad boy yet? Brown Bomber Ale?

I would still dump it but being as how you're not going to do it, or at least it seems more probable that you wont, I would be lying if I didn't say I'm definitely curious to hear the end result..

 

[theredben]

Seems you probably would have worse problems after that level of alcohol consumption though. QUOTE]

^^^This. We are not talking about potable water here. This is sugar water laced with the highly toxic chemical ethanol. Need to keep things in perspective.

 

[SilentAutumn]

you should be able to eat 21 grams before you get the poops

If I had a nickel for every time someone told me that phrase...

But as for topic, seems as though OP will brew this to the end. Read that low OG was a concern. What about adding some fruit to bump the flavor and add some points?

 

[kbuzz]

If I had a nickel for every time someone told me that phrase...

But as for topic, seems as though OP will brew this to the end. Read that low OG was a concern. What about adding some fruit to bump the flavor and add some points?

This is a pale ale and was already planning on adding about 2-3 lbs of dried pineapple. How many points can I expect from it...I wouldn't guess much. OG was about .6 lower than what I wanted.

 

[SilentAutumn]

This is a pale ale and was already planning on adding about 2-3 lbs of dried pineapple. How many points can I expect from it...I wouldn't guess much. OG was about .6 lower than what I wanted.

Dried pineapple? Interesting. Given the current circumstances, how are you planning on sanitizing that?

Note: I know nothing about brewing with pineapple, fresh or dried, but the gotmead.com calculator says 3 pounds of fresh pineapple will add about 3 points. 6 pounds of fresh will add about 6 points. (1 pound dried = 2 pounds fresh? probably not an easy 1:2 ratio on fresh to dried though).

I have read a post or two on hear from people saying they add a pound of honey to their primary if they come in low on their OG. Again, never tried this. I imagine it would make for a drier beer, but if adding to primary may actually impart some honey flavors. But this might be hard for you since you have 5 gallons of wort and 1 gallon of sanitizer in your primary already.

If you don't care about taste and just want to up the ABV, add some vodka.

 

[brewit2it]

Why on earth would you want to add Pineapple to a pale ale? I'd sooner add another half gallon of the cleanser, but to each his own.

 

[malkore]

I had a watermelon pale ale a few months ago. It was hard to finish...not my cup of tea.
But it was definitely a watermelon pale ale, so the brewer accomplished the goal.

 

[brewit2it]

I had a watermelon pale ale a few months ago. It was hard to finish...not my cup of tea.
But it was definitely a watermelon pale ale, so the brewer accomplished the goal.

Yeah, fruit in beer just ain't my cup of tea. Plus this is such an interesting experiment I would keep the beer as simple as possible to see if he can detect the taste of the cleanser.


And as an aside, what gives with the 0 gallons in 2011? The year is 1/6 over. You have some catching up to do.

 

[kbuzz]

Why on earth would you want to add Pineapple to a pale ale? I'd sooner add another half gallon of the cleanser, but to each his own.

When I was originally discussing this recipe, I got the same reaction...I don't know...to me it sounds appealing. I think it will compliment the citrusy notes from the Cascades I plan on dry-hopping with. We'll see. If it's already ruined, then I might as well use this batch to play around with, right??

 

[SilentAutumn]

I had a co-worker who put white pine needles (Michigan's state tree) in a batch. It basically tasted like you would expect. Like someone put some damn pine needles in your beer. Pine-sol.

Back to topic: the reason I homebrew is to not only make my own tasty beers, but to experiment and have fun. I say go for it. Just don't expect me to be all excited to drink it

 

[kbuzz]

I had a co-worker who put white pine needles (Michigan's state tree) in a batch. It basically tasted like you would expect. Like someone put some damn pine needles in your beer. Pine-sol.

Back to topic: the reason I homebrew is to not only make my own tasty beers, but to experiment and have fun. I say go for it. Just don't expect me to be all excited to drink it

What if I sent you a free 22 oz'er??

 

[sudbuster]

Guys, I'm not trolling here. I've been brewing a long time and seen a lot of dumb crap, but how something this stupid could get 78 responses beats me. The board has certainly changed, and IMO not for the better. If I had posted something like this when I came on, I'd have been laughed out of the interwebs, and it would have ranked up there with EAC..........
Dump the crap, and be done with it.

 

[brewit2it]

Guys, I'm not trolling here. I've been brewing a long time and seen a lot of dumb crap, but how something this stupid could get 78 responses beats me. The board has certainly changed, and IMO not for the better. If I had posted something like this when I came on, I'd have been laughed out of the interwebs, and it would have ranked up there with EAC..........
Dump the crap, and be done with it.

Keep in mind that you supplied one of the 78 responses:cross:

But I think if you had been keeping up you would realize a few things have already been established:

1. the cleanser is not toxic, and in fact not stable, but rather highly reactive so will be mainly broken down to peroxide then oxygen and water.
2. He's not dumping it.
3. He has elected to add pineapple to the beer, rejecting my sugggestion to add an additional half gallon of the cleanser in its place.
4. This one is just conjecture, but considering that major components of this ale will include fruit and cleaning solution I belive the ale will be sipped out of rainbow colored glasses with little umbrellas in them while enjoying finger sandwiches and crumpets (pinkies out of course)

(jk, I actually can't wait to hear how it turns out)

 

[aidan]

Guys, I'm not trolling here. I've been brewing a long time and seen a lot of dumb crap, but how something this stupid could get 78 responses beats me. The board has certainly changed, and IMO not for the better. If I had posted something like this when I came on, I'd have been laughed out of the interwebs, and it would have ranked up there with EAC..........
Dump the crap, and be done with it.

Maybe it's just that there not as many EACs on here these days and more PFFs?