Slight Medicine or Band-Aid Flavor In Week Long Fermentation

[landmissle]

Hi all,

Last weekend I did my first DME beer batch. I brewed an Irish Red Ale recipe kit from MoreBeer using CellarScience "English" yeast. This was a full boil (as I did in my first two batches) and the brew process seemed to go fine. As part of my cleaning and sanitation I added the additional step of boiling my kettle spigot to make sure the ball valve was sanitized (besides soaking in Starsan).

Fermentation seemed visibly slow, with no airlock bubbling or other visible signs in the wort at the 24 hour mark. I roused the wort at that time and by 12 hours later I had a healthy krausen going. Still no air-lock bubbling then or really at all since, but I haven't let that disturb me. The krausen settled and sunk after about 4 days.

I used bottled water for the wort. The only exception I can think of is I did use filtered tap water that I microwaved to a boil for the yeast rehydration. After it was boiled I let it cool (covered ) to the recommended 95 degrees and then rehydrated the yeast for 30 minutes. Yeast was pitched into the wort when it was just under 70 degrees.

Today has been a week since brew day and I decided to do a SG test as I was curious. The OG was 1.052 and today is it 1.018. So obviously some fermentation has been happening. I alway taste my beer when I do a SG and was caught me off-guard as there was an off flavor (slight) of a medicine-like or band-aid taste. I know this is early in the fermentation process and the yeast have some cleaning up to do yet, but would this be normal? I'm wondering if I have an infection or got some wild yeast in the mix. If I have, is there anything I can do at this point?

Thanks for any advice or feedback. At this point I just plan on waiting a week to take another SG and taste the sample to see if it's changed or gotten worse.

 

[KepowOb]

First off, no bubbling doesn't mean anything other than there was probably a small leak. What are you fermenting in? I'm going to assume it's not a bucket, since you knew there was krausen for 4 days... Easy not to have a perfect seal with those though.

As for the off-flavors, that's commonly attributed to Chlorine, but sounds like it wouldn't be an issue from what you described.

What product do you use to sanitize?

Also, what was the yeast?

 

[landmissle]

Hi KepowOb,

I used CellerScience "English" yeast, the carboy is a plastic Fermonster unit with a spigot, and I use Starsan for my sanitizing.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

At this point I just plan on waiting a week to take another SG and taste the sample to see if it's changed or gotten worse.

This is a good approach. The sample will likely taste better/different with the next sample.

 

[KepowOb]

Yeah I can't think of what would have caused that, but I bet it'll be a ton better the next time you sample it, one the yeast have had more time to clean things up.

Let us know how it turns out.

 

[HB_ATL73]

This is a good approach. The sample will likely taste better/different with the next sample.

After all these years I am still am learning this same lesson over and over again. Sample beer when packaging into keg- hmmm not my best beer... Let it condition and carbonate- Oh delicious beer!

OP just wait and let it finish fermenting and let it do its thing

 

[homebeerbrewer]

One week is not long enough. Actual fermentation may be done, but like with any party, there's a mess to clean up afterwards. The yeast will clean the mess up in the week or two after the party is over. Leave it for at least another week, or three.

And, the bandaid flavor could be that fermentation temps were too high. What was the temp during fermentation?

 

[VikeMan]

And, the bandaid flavor could be that fermentation temps were too high. What was the temp during fermentation?

To my knowledge, the Cellar Science English yeast strain isn't a POF+ strain. How could high fermentation temps have caused a bandaid (phenolic) flavor?

 

[hotbeer]

I wouldn't worry about anything until you try that glass after all is done and it's been kegged or bottled for a week or two.

Might just be the flavor that yeast gives that recipe after just a week. Which is way to soon to be assessing flavor since yeast impart off flavors into beer while fermenting and after that's done they clean up those off flavors.

But not if you don't leave them alone.

You didn't use tap water with chlorine in it did you?

 

[seatazzz]

Bandaid (or phenolic to be a bit more chemically precise) flavor can happen for a couple of reasons. One, too much chlorine/chloramine in the brewing water. Almost all municipal water suppliers add these to combat bad bacteria in the local water supply. They can be eradicated by adding a campden tablet (or equivalent potassium metabisulfate/sodium metabisulfate powder, it's super cheap and only needs a very small amount) to the brewing water. Bandaid/phenolc flavor can also occur when yeast die and autolyse (literally break down the cell walls) due to either too high of temperature at yeast pitching, or too high of fermentation temperature. I'm sorry to say, once that flavor is there, it's not going to go away, no matter the initial cause. You can also completely avoid the issue by using distilled or spring water from the grocery store, although this can get pricey in California from what I've read.

At least around here in Western WA, during the summer months the concentrations of chorine and/or chloramine in our tap water is higher due to the lower water table. Campden tablets, or the equivalent powder, is VERY cheap insurance to avoid this issue. It has absolutely no effect on the finished beer (unless you go way too high on it, literally a single tablet or about 1/8tsp of the powder will work in 20g of water) and should be in every homebrewer's arsenal.

You can try letting the beer sit a while longer, then taste it again; but if that flavor is still there, and as much as it will hurt, I would suggest dumping it and starting over. There is NO shame in dumping/burying at sea a beer that you would not want to serve to your friends, let alone drink yourself. I've been brewing for over 8 years, and just a few days ago had to dump a full keg that turned out pretty nasty.

 

[landmissle]

Hi all,

Thank you for all the input. I used bottled spring water for the initial 6 gallons of the batch. Unfortunately, I did use a cup of tap water that was filtered through a Britta charcoal filter. I then microwaved that water to a boil. After it cooled to 95 degrees F, I used it to rehydrate the yeast. So, it's very possible this water could have been a source of Chlorine, The filter would only help remove the taste of Chlorine, but not all the Chlorine. The microwave boil was not likely long enough to remove the remaining Chlorine. I've read it would need to boil 15 minutes for that. My boil time in the microwave was maybe a minute.

I guess the only way I'll know is the next time I take a SG reading. I plan on doing that tomorrow. If the taste is gone great! Otherwise, yeah, I think it may be time to jettison it and start another batch. All part of the learning process...

 

[VikeMan]

Bandaid/phenolc flavor can also occur when yeast die and autolyse (literally break down the cell walls) due to either too high of temperature at yeast pitching, or too high of fermentation temperature.

Personally, I wouldn't describe autolysis flavors as bandaid or phenolic. Soy Sauce, Meaty, and Broth-like come to mind.

 

[seatazzz]

After it cooled to 95 degrees F, I used it to rehydrate the yeast.

Right there might be part of the problem. That's a bit hot for ale yeast, it's possible the heat killed off a lot of it.

Personally, I wouldn't describe autolysis flavors as bandaid or phenolic. Soy Sauce, Meaty, and Broth-like come to mind.

Was speaking from past experience; back in my early days when I was MUCH more impatient (and didn't have reliable means to cool wort) I pitched yeast way too hot several times. The resulting beers tasted and smelled mostly like bandaids, even with k-meta treated water.

 

[DBhomebrew]

Right there might be part of the problem. That's a bit hot for ale yeast, it's possible the heat killed off a lot of it.

Not for rehydration. Cellar Science calls for 85-95° for that.

 

[mac_1103]

Anything is possible, and I have no idea how much chlorine is in your water, but the amount left in one cup after filtering and boiling seems unlikely to ruin an entire five gallon batch.

 

[landmissle]

Hi all,

Thanks for all the input. Took another SG reading today and it's still at 1.018 and the off-taste was still present. I think at this point, the "taste" will be in my head regardless if it's actually present or not. I would not feel confident to serve it to my friends or family. So, right or wrong, down the sink it went.

I'll likely brew another recipe this next weekend. I think I'll do my first recipe kit which was an American Red Ale from Morebeer. It came out great. I need a confidence booster now that my 2nd batch only came out "ok" and this last one was a total loss.

 

[homebeerbrewer]

Sorry for your loss. Unless this was a very high starting gravity beer, 1.018 is way too high, I don't think fermentation was done. Maybe you dumped it too soon. If it was me, I would have waited for another few weeks before dumping it.

What do you ferment in, and what's the environment of your fermentation space? Fermentation temperature control is key to making good beer. Fermentation generates heat, so if the fermenter is in a 65F space, the internal temp could be as high as 75F. I'm not familiar with the brand or strain of yeast you used, but my guess is that your fermentation got too hot. That could also be why the gravity was still 1.018, the yeast quit working when it got too hot. A simple swamp cooler will work. Get a bucket bigger than your fermenter, fill it with water up to the level inside your fermenter, and keep the water within the temp range of the yeast by using frozen water bottles. Look up the temp range for the yeast you're using, and try to keep the environment at the lowest of the temp range during active fermentation.

 

[VikeMan]

Fermentation generates heat, so if the fermenter is in a 65F space, the internal temp could be as high as 75F. I'm not familiar with the brand or strain of yeast you used, but my guess is that your fermentation got too hot. That could also be why the gravity was still 1.018, the yeast quit working when it got too hot.

The temps would have to get well over 100F before they "quit working." Before then, they work faster and produce certain off flavors (though I still maintain that bandaid is not normally one of them), like excess fusels and esters, and potentially increased autolysis products. The latter would be very marginal. Yeast die off a little faster at (say) 90F vs 70F, but the faster fermentation offsets that. So although beer from a high-ish temperature fermentation will have flaws, under attenuation (high FG) isn't one of them. (Things like acetaldehyde and diacetyl actually decrease with higher fermentation temps, because their "cleanup" (by the yeast, which is mostly alive and well) is accelerated.)

 

[hottpeper13]

The one and only time I got bandaid was from dirty valves. If I were you I'd disassemble all the gear and do a deep clean. Kinda weird for just the 3 rd batch,is your equipment used?

 

[mac_1103]

I would never dump a beer after only two weeks. Then again, I almost never taste a beer after only two weeks.

Most of the things that have been suggested, while technically valid, seem unlikely explainations for your issues. VikeMan already covered most of this. I will add that while an infection can certainly lead to all kinds of off flavors, I don't think it can explain under-attentuation.

FWIW going forward, there's really no need to rehydrate dry yeast for a 1.052 wort.

 

[landmissle]

Hi all,

All my equipment was bought new and is about 6 mounts old. I have a 7 gallon Fermonster for the fermentation vessel. I use a "Coolbrew" insulated enclosure to keep the fermentation vessel cool. I typically keep temps down around 65 degrees with two, 2 gallon jugs of frozen water.

During this last batch, I recall having some issues the first 12 hours of getting the temps below 70 degrees F at first. At first I assumed that fermentation had kicked in really fast and was heating the vessel from inside. After that time period the temps came down as expected. From there on and after they behaved normally and ranged from 63 to 66 degree F.

I actually cleaned and boiled the kettle spigot (that has a ball valve) just before brewing. The plastic valve in the carboy was cleaned and soaked in Starsan prior to use. I'm not saying these couldn't be the cause, but I thought I took proper precautions.

So maybe, my pitch temperature wasn't as low as I thought. I measured wort temperature with a kettle thermometer while cooling with a wort chiller. I failed to comment on that temp in my notes, but I'm pretty sure it was just under 70 degrees F. Maybe it was higher and that was the reason I was having problems getting the ambient temp below 70 degrees in insulated enclosure.

There was a lag period of almost 36 hours, but after that I saw a healthy krausen.

 

[IslandLizard]

I actually cleaned and boiled the kettle spigot (that has a ball valve) just before brewing.

As @hottpeper13 already said, I too doubt there could be infection problems inside a kettle valve after 2 brews, but who knows?

To clean a valve, it's best to let water/detergent/water/sanitizer (in that order) stream both ways while you move the handle (which operates the ball inside) from 90° to 180° back and forth. That will clean and rinse out the ball chamber, especially behind the ball. That's where most gunk will build up over time.

A 2-piece or 3-piece valve?
Does that valve come apart?

If it's a 3-piece valve you can simply undo the 4 bolts and it will come apart for cleaning.
Many 2-piece valves can also be taken apart, but you'd need a vice and a good size wrench. Add some cushioning/protection to the jaws to prevent marring the valve with the vice and wrench.

[Added] Forgot to mention, drain the valve completely at the end of cleaning/sanitizing, and leave it open at a 45° angle when not in use, so air can get to both sides to dry it out.

 

[mac_1103]

There was a lag period of almost 36 hours, but after that I saw a healthy krausen.

If you saw healthy krausen after 36 hours, then the lag period was actually much shorter.

It sounds like you have a pretty solid process going, especially for someone who's only brewed three times. So don't beat yourself up too much. Instead, try to figure out every little thing that might have been different between the batch that turned out well and the one that didn't.

What yeast did you use for the American Red?

 

[IslandLizard]

I have a 7 gallon Fermonster for the fermentation vessel.

The plastic valve in the carboy was cleaned and soaked in Starsan prior to use.

That plastic valve needs to be pushed apart (after soaking for a minute in a cup with very hot water) to be able to clean the tight space between the 2 barrels rotating inside each other. I've seen some slimy black residue developing in there after 2 brews.
Also, those rubber seals (flat o-rings) need to be cleaned and sanitized well after each fermentation. And re-sanitized right before exposing to a new batch of wort.

These are all precautions to keep your brewing and fermentation gear sanitary. Hidden spaces are often overlooked.
I'm not saying they are the cause of the band-aid problem you encountered. But quite often new homebrewers see infection problems appear after 2 or 3 batches.

 

[mac_1103]

I try to clean and sanitize everything after each use as well as before the next use. Sort of a belt and suspenders approach I guess. But sometimes things happen, and I'm not very good at keeping track of which bucket or carboy got used when. So I just disassembled everything that isn't currently in use. Fortunately there was no slimy black stuff to be found, but some of the valves weren't exactly pristine either. Soaking in hot PBW now.

 

[landmissle]

That plastic valve needs to be pushed apart (after soaking for a minute in a cup with very hot water) to be able to clean the tight space between the 2 barrels rotating inside each other. I've seen some slimy black residue developing in there after 2 brews.

Hi IslandLizard,

Are you talking about this spigot on the Fermonstar (plastic carboy)? Are you saying this actually comes apart?

 

[mac_1103]

Yep.

I use a small wooden dowel wrapped in a paper towel to push the inner part up through the outer part. Not sure what others do, but you don't want to go at it with anything sharp because scratches inside the spigot will just give bugs more places to hide.

 

[DBhomebrew]

I hold it by the threaded part, set the handle on the edge of a counter, then give a good rap on the hand holding the threaded part.

 

[mac_1103]

...give a good rap on the hand holding the threaded part.

Doesn't that hurt?

 

[IslandLizard]

Hi IslandLizard,

Are you talking about this spigot on the Fermonstar (plastic carboy)? Are you saying this actually comes apart?

I had (an older) bottling bucket spigot in mind, where the main 3/4" spigot body turns within the 1" mounting housing.

But the same applies to your (Fermonster) spigot as @mac_1103 clearly illustrated. This applies pretty much to any spigot with rotating parts.

 

[DBhomebrew]

Doesn't that hurt?

Nope. I use the meaty underside of the rapping fist to hit the meaty area between thumb and forefinger of the holding hand. It doesn't take much.

 

[mac_1103]

Nope. I use the meaty underside of the rapping fist to hit the meaty area between thumb and forefinger of the holding hand. It doesn't take much.

Just give it a few years. It doesn't take much force to separate the spigot parts, but at my age it doesn't take much to hurt myself either.

 

[landmissle]

This the spigot with a ball valve that I have on the kettle.

https://www.morebeer.com/products/stainless-ball-valve-12-full-port.html
I tried getting it apart with two plumbers wrenchs. I was torquing on it pretty good to the point I thought it would break. I never could get it apart. Thats when I resorted to just cleaning it as best as I could with detergent, a tooth brush, boiling in water and Starsan for sanitation.

The link above states it comes apart with two cresent wrenches. Mine were just a tad to small and hence the plumbers wrenches used instead.

So maybe one or the other of these spigots were a source contmenation?

I'll try to disasemble the ball valve spigot again. Man I hope I don't break it.....

 

[IslandLizard]

I'll try to disable the ball valve spigot again. Man I hope I don't break it.....

Disassemble?

They do come apart, easier (and probably) safer when using a vise, at least for the first time. After that, it's much easier.
I doubt after 2 brews there will be built up inside. Look over my instructions on rinsing it out while moving the handle back and forth, easier while still mounted to the kettle.
Any threads inside ports need to be scrubbed clean too. They make (fairly stiff) round brushes for that.

Tubing (hoses) used in transferring chilled wort also needs to be clean and sanitized. Just as with anything else touching your (chilled) wort and beer.

Again, all these cleaning and sanitation practices becomes more important with successive brews, as anything in the chain that isn't cleaned and sanitized can become an infection vector later on.

I'm not convinced infection is the problem at this moment, the band-aid off-flavor points to other things than infection.
Don't forget, beer needs extra time to condition after active fermentation has slowed or even finished. Many seemingly rough of off flavors and aromas can condition out during those extra 2 weeks. IOW, don't judge a green beer for more than it is, it will get much better given enough time.

Now why your fermentation ended or stalled at 1.018 is a bit puzzling.* If there's anything you can think of that could have possibly caused it, please post it, we can all learn from those experiences, bad and good.

* In my early brewing years I had a 1.090-some Old Ale stall on me at 1.034, using 2 packs of S-04 in a 5.5 gallon batch. Everyone else's brew of the exact same recipe came in around 1.014-1.016. Those 12 brews were from much more seasoned brewers, of course.

Although I had properly pre-hydrated the (dry) yeast, I reckon lack of sufficient aeration/oxygenation and/or an unfortunate overnight temp drop at the wrong time, could have played a role in that.

 

[landmissle]

Now why your fermentation ended or stalled at 1.018 is a bit puzzling.* If there's anything you can think of that could have possibly caused it, please post it, we can all learn from those experiences, bad and good.

This is the 2nd batch that stopped at 1.020. All of my batches (three) have been extract recipe kits from either MoreBeer or Austin Home Brewing. My first batch reached a FG of 1.013, but the last two have hung at around 1.019 ~. The previous one clung to that value for three weeks. I finally gave up waiting and bottled it. It came out fine but a bit low on alcohol content. OG was 1.051. That one was using S33 yeast which I was told is slow and doesn't consume some fermentable sugars very well. This last batch, which used CellarScience "English" ( I think this is S-04?) appeared to be doing the same thing (stalling), but coupled with the off-taste, I was inclined to cut my loses. Maybe that was impulsive, but I'm just looking at it as a learning opportunity and chance to brew another batch.

I have read that it's not unheard for extracts batches to stall at around 1.020. I don't know if that's true or not. It's even been worded as "the extract curse". Obviously it's not a curse, but maybe there's something common in the process that many extact brewers do?

Running it through my head and reflecting on a lot of wonderful advice I've been given, I'm wondering if I'm being too aggressive with the cooling of the wort when first placed in my cooling enclosure? I typically shoot for low 60 degree F and maybe this is stalling out the yeast?

The other thing that comes to mind, is that that with both the last two batches, I left most of the kettle trub in the kettle. I use bags for the steeping grains and hops, but there still definitly a layer of organic sludge at the bottom of the kettle. My first batch, I drained most of it into the fermentation chamber. That batch seemed to have some "chill haze". Hoping for clearer beer, I've left most of trub behind in the subsequent two batches.

BTW, I was able to get the plastic spigot apart by soaking it in really hot water. Thought I was going to break it, but the handle/barrel came apart. No obvious funk, but I'll definitely wash and sanitize it while dissassembled. I ordered some extras too, incase they break with my future ham-fisted attemps at taking it apart.

Hey, success, I also was able take-apart the metal kettle spigot. I'm not seeing any obvious funk within it either.

 

[mac_1103]

I have read that it's not unheard for extracts batches to stall at around 1.020. I don't know if that's true or not. It's even been worded as "the extract curse".

I've never heard that and I've never had an extract batch stall. A couple have finished a few points higher than expected, but tasted fine. Then again, 1.020 is pretty close to the expected FG for most of the extract brews I've done. Five points is kind of a lot if the OG is 1.05, but not so much if it's 1.08 or 1.09.

 

[mac_1103]

I'm wondering if I'm being too aggressive with the cooling of the wort when first placed in my cooling enclosure? I typically shoot for low 60 degree F and maybe this is stalling out the yeast?

Pitching into wort that's been "over-chilled" might delay the start of fermentation a little, but shouldn't cause the yeast to quit early once they do get going. You said you rehydrate the yeast at 95F; do you cool it to within a few degrees of the wort temperature before you pitch it (by adding some of the wort to the yeast before adding all of the yeast to the wort)? I don't know, but maybe you're shocking the yeast somehow.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I have read that it's not unheard for extracts batches to stall at around 1.020. I don't know if that's true or not. It's even been worded as "the extract curse". Obviously it's not a curse, but maybe there's something common in the process that many extact brewers do?

eta: links to complete recipes + brew day / fermentation notes would be helpful in troubleshooting these instances of "the extract curse".

IMO, "The extract curse" (stopping at FG 19) is either 1) bad recipe design, 2) bad FG estimation, 3) bad yeast selection, or 4) something else once the top three are eliminated.

S-33 (as well as Windsor and London) do not ferment maltotriose. From "Fermentis Tips

With "all-grain" brewing, one can mash lower to create a more ferment-able If a recipe is algorithmically converted form all-grain to "extract", does the algorithm account for this?

 

[landmissle]

"You said you rehydrate the yeast at 95F; do you cool it to within a few degrees of the wort temperature before you pitch it?"

Yup, I actually cool it down covered natually over 20 minutes. If necessary I'll place the container (typically a sanitized glass mearsuring cup) the yeast is in, in a chilled water bath until the yeast slury measures close to the wort temperature.

 

[shavy]

Yep.
View attachment 828091
I use a small wooden dowel wrapped in a paper towel to push the inner part up through the outer part. Not sure what others do, but you don't want to go at it with anything sharp because scratches inside the spigot will just give bugs more places to hide.

No tools needed to remove the spigot lever.
I soak my spigot in warm PBW for a few minutes, then grab it by the lever, twist as you pull up.