I hope this thread doesn’t get too off track. The info and experiences from ev owners is helpful to me and I’m sure others.
skipped....
i just saw "flex fuel" selling for $7.79&9/10" i can make a gallon of flex fuel i can drink for less then that......
sorry if that's me going off on a tangent.....
edit: the hippies don't like nuclear, hydro, coal, anything....how are they going to charge their damn batteries.....and even if solar was viable they'd complain about taking light away from plants, or how grass doesn't get light.....lol
It drives me nuts how all the greenies who moved to my state pushed to get rid of all the power plants. Nuclear was the wave of the future for them when I was growing up and now it's as sinful as coal. Now I'm basically being forced to spend $40k+ to build my own power plant on my roof. It really frosts my titties.skipped....
i just saw "flex fuel" selling for $7.79&9/10" i can make a gallon of flex fuel i can drink for less then that......
sorry if that's me going off on a tangent.....
edit: the hippies don't like nuclear, hydro, coal, anything....how are they going to charge their damn batteries.....and even if solar was viable they'd complain about taking light away from plants, or how grass doesn't get light.....lol
Paper bags were bad 30 years ago. Now we're back to paper bags. I wish these people were consistent.
I remember in college one professor said if you can make something that breaks right after the warranty runs out you'll be a rich man. He was absolutely right.Note that electricity costs will also rise, vehicle operating costs will increase. In theory, electric motors don't wear out at the same rate gasoline engines do, so cars will last longer, but manufacturers will find a way to make the vehicles obsolete long before they quit working.
That is absolutely true. That goes for a lot of material used in electronics as well.The batteries are an ecological disaster waiting to happen. Replacing them is not cheap.
My son found some great deals on Honda Civic hybrids that were five years old. Told him to research the batteries. Weren't such a good deal then.
I have read the heavy metal load from making solar panels is a big problem too.That is absolutely true. That goes for a lot of material used in electronics as well.
You know, we shouldn't talk like this. It might take away the warm fuzzies the eco conscious people get for doing all the solar and green electronic stuff. Most probably don't realize our landfills are filled with that stuff. Chemicals and bad minerals leaching into the ground from it or that mountains are demolished mining the materials needed for a lot of batteries and stuff. Plus the slave labor used to do the dirty work in third world countries...I have read the heavy metal load from making solar panels is a big problem too.
all new trucks are stomach turners.Think I'd consider an ev truck. Can't stomach the pricing currently...will wait til it's not a novelty, although I think by that point regulation will basically have made fossil fuel vehicles inaccessible price wise...
guess my next vehicle is a bicycle...
It's crazy how expensive trucks are getting. I basically have a f150 with a suv body and the prices are nuts. I paid $30k in '18 for a used '14 expy limited. I'd rather have kept my '01 expy, but the frame was rotted pretty bad. I think a new expy limited is like $70k+all new trucks are stomach turners.
I was poking around the ford website to price a new diesel F150. I got to around 59k when I decided to close that browsing tab. I’ll wait a few years or a decade and buy a used one.
Yeah, that would be a problem. I have known someone with a Volt at an apartment who ran an extension cord out the window. Which even then would be a hassle for nightly charging. In my situation, I pull into my garage every night, and the charger is right there. Being a creature of habit, I just plug in and don't even have to think about it. My daughter and her husband both have Volt's, and they don't have an outside outlet at their house. So they run an extension cord.If folks want to get back on topic . . . .
The limiting factor for us in purchasing an electric car is that we live in a multi-unit building in Chicago and our parking area has no charging. I'm not aware of any quick charging public options.
I have read the heavy metal load from making solar panels is a big problem too.
If folks want to get back on topic . . . .
The limiting factor for us in purchasing an electric car is that we live in a multi-unit building in Chicago and our parking area has no charging. I'm not aware of any quick charging public options.
They need to uniform the charging plugs and place stations where people can get access to them ,not just in capital city car park..
You are talking about level 2 Chargers. Which, on a car like my Volt, might put on 8 miles of range in an hour. It's not really that fast. When I charge overnight on 110V, it takes maybe 12 hours to get 60 miles of range. I think that Tesla's can use them, but need an adapter.Almost all EV manufacturers use the SAE J1772 with the exception of Mitsubishi and Nissan. The SAE J1772 is what every charging station I've ever used has. It accommodates two different types of connections: one for slow speed charging and one for high speed charging. It's very, very simple.
Yeah. About impossible to believe, but do the math. People think they're saving a ton of money with these things, but they never are. There are also end-of-life costs such as whether the battery needs replacement after 7 years, and so on.
You are talking about level 2 Chargers. Which, on a car like my Volt, might put on 8 miles of range in an hour. It's not really that fast. When I charge overnight on 110V, it takes maybe 12 hours to get 60 miles of range. I think that Tesla's can use them, but need an adapter.
For fast charging you either need a Tesla, or something like a Bolt. Not all Bolts come with the DC Fast Charger upgrade. But it's an option if you want to pay for it.
A friend of mine bought a Bolt in Chicago last year. It was cold out, so he ran the heater which ran down the battery. Much to his chagrin, he found out that there were no DC Fast Chargers between Chicago and Indianapolis. Even at Chevy dealers. There were plenty of level 2 Chargers. He called in a panic. What do I do? I to him to get a hotel , grab a beer, and let it charge overnight. Which is what he did.
Great write up Mongoose33, very informative. I also appreciate you pointing out the assumptions.Here are a few items from a guy who just retired from teaching in the Sustainability/Renewable Energy area.
1. Electric isn't truly "green" unless two things happen: first, the power that charges it comes from a green source, not coal fired, not nat gas, and second, that the power and resources used to make the car are green (same issue).
2. It takes energy to make an energy-efficient vehicle. There's a term for it, called "embodied energy." If you replace an ICE car with an electric, you may be greener, but only after you make up for all the energy it took to make the vehicle.
3. The problem of how long until charge is called "Range Anxiety." It's much better. With ranges exceeding 300 miles today, most electric cars pass the "everyday use" test. What they aren't as good for is extended trips.
4. Many have, and others will, have a multiple-vehicle family with an electric vehicle for everyday things, and an ICE car for longer trips. About the longest trip I make is maybe 300 miles round-trip, which is in the range of many electric cars.
5. As ranges of EVs have increased, "range anxiety" is being supplanted by "charge anxiety." If one doesn't have a convenient access to charging while on the road, and charging that is relatively fast, then it's also an issue.
And here's the biggest issue of all, IMO:
As a class assignment, I had my students figure out the gasoline-price break-even point, i.e., how high would gas prices have to rise for the monthly cost to break even.
You have to make some assumptions to do this. I told them 12000 miles annually, the price of the EV (Chevy Bolt at the time) was about $35k, the price of a comparable ICE car similar to a Ford Focus was $20,000. We assumed a 6-year loan with something like $3k down on each.
I figured something like an average of 30mpg on the Focus (I own one, that's why I used it), and factored in the electricity charging costs of the EV. I added a couple oil changes a year for the Focus. My insurance agent insisted the annual costs to insure both where the same, but I don't really believe that. A totaled $35k car should cost more to insure than a $20k car, but we used equal insurance anyway.
Guess how high gas prices would have to rise for the montly cost to break even? You will not believe it.
$9.32 per gallon.
Yeah. About impossible to believe, but do the math. People think they're saving a ton of money with these things, but they never are. There are also end-of-life costs such as whether the battery needs replacement after 7 years, and so on.
Now, you cannot do these kinds of problems without making some assumptions; you can fill in your own as you like. But the numbers we used were not outlandish, and making some changes here or there wouldn't change the results all that much.
In the end, would I buy one? Yeah. Maybe. Possibly. If the price comes down.
There are no free lunches. And if you drive, you're not being green, really. If you want to be green, you really need to walk or ride a bike. But many of us do need to drive to make a living.
As far as costs, I don't know if electric cars are discounted more or what. But I found deals on both of my Volts for around $10k off of sticker price. And then there was the $7500 tax credit. Counting both of those, I paid about the same as you did for your $20k car.
Great write up Mongoose33, very informative. I also appreciate you pointing out the assumptions.
First this thread paralleled the propane vs electric brewer, now it's mirroring the "is it cheaper to homebrew" argument.
As far as assumptions, the 35k ev vs 20k car; I'd be willing to bet that someone in the position to buy a 50k Tesla 3 would probably not settle for a 25k Camry as a daily drive.
The other assumption is that I'm sure there are those out there that just enjoy newer technology, whether it pencils out or not. As said before, I own 2 ICE cars, but would love to go ev in a few years as technology improves and prices decrease. I'll probably still keep my 4x4 tow vehicle but see absolutely no reason to commute with that gas hog.
Others may enjoy harvesting their own energy and not being reliant on what happens geopolitically in Saudi Arabia or wherever. Others may enjoy the quietness or the quickness of instant torque.
There are vehicles out there that cost a lot of money and are horribly reliable and expensive to fix and don't hold their resale value. Yet people still buy them over boring Corollas or Camrys because of ride quality or status (I'm looking at you German cars).
If the Volt was slightly bigger and could accommodate kids seats and accessories, there would be one in my driveway now.I did the same calcs years ago when the Volt first came out. Even after the $7500 discount was used--and how you factor that in is an issue--back then the insurance on the Volt was a lot higher. The calcs at that time showed gas would have to rise to $13/gallon. I'm not kidding. It's why nobody was buying Volts unless they wanted to make a statement.
It's also why you got a discount on yours and why GM stopped making them. It wasn't a bad deal to do what you did, not at all. I always said I'd buy a Volt if the price was comparable. If I'd have found one at the same price as my Focus, I'd have been all over it.
[BTW, a little interesting history behind the Volt: GM's engineers and others researched driving habits, found that something like 70 percent of all drivers didn't drive 40 miles in a day. So they made a hybrid electric vehicle that would go 40 miles on battery; after that distance, an ICE would produce electricity to recharge the battery and run the car. I know you know this, BTW. The interesting thing for me was that A) they produced a car that matched the driving habits of the majority of drivers, and B) eliminated range anxiety. It still is one of the smartest things I've ever seen an automaker do. If only they could have gotten the price down.....]
The tax rebate was interesting. It offset taxes, wasn't a "rebate," so if you didn't pay $7500 or more in taxed, you didn't get the whole thing. Then there was the problem of accounting for that in terms of the loan. Not easy to solve, and depends on the assumptions.
Here are a few items from a guy who just retired from teaching in the Sustainability/Renewable Energy area.
1. Electric isn't truly "green" unless two things happen: first, the power that charges it comes from a green source, not coal fired, not nat gas, and second, that the power and resources used to make the car are green (same issue).
2. It takes energy to make an energy-efficient vehicle. There's a term for it, called "embodied energy." If you replace an ICE car with an electric, you may be greener, but only after you make up for all the energy it took to make the vehicle.
3. The problem of how long until charge is called "Range Anxiety." It's much better. With ranges exceeding 300 miles today, most electric cars pass the "everyday use" test. What they aren't as good for is extended trips.
4. Many have, and others will, have a multiple-vehicle family with an electric vehicle for everyday things, and an ICE car for longer trips. About the longest trip I make is maybe 300 miles round-trip, which is in the range of many electric cars.
5. As ranges of EVs have increased, "range anxiety" is being supplanted by "charge anxiety." If one doesn't have a convenient access to charging while on the road, and charging that is relatively fast, then it's also an issue.
And here's the biggest issue of all, IMO:
As a class assignment, I had my students figure out the gasoline-price break-even point, i.e., how high would gas prices have to rise for the monthly cost to break even.
You have to make some assumptions to do this. I told them 12000 miles annually, the price of the EV (Chevy Bolt at the time) was about $35k, the price of a comparable ICE car similar to a Ford Focus was $20,000. We assumed a 6-year loan with something like $3k down on each.
I figured something like an average of 30mpg on the Focus (I own one, that's why I used it), and factored in the electricity charging costs of the EV. I added a couple oil changes a year for the Focus. My insurance agent insisted the annual costs to insure both where the same, but I don't really believe that. A totaled $35k car should cost more to insure than a $20k car, but we used equal insurance anyway.
Guess how high gas prices would have to rise for the montly cost to break even? You will not believe it.
$9.32 per gallon.
Yeah. About impossible to believe, but do the math. People think they're saving a ton of money with these things, but they never are. There are also end-of-life costs such as whether the battery needs replacement after 7 years, and so on.
Now, you cannot do these kinds of problems without making some assumptions; you can fill in your own as you like. But the numbers we used were not outlandish, and making some changes here or there wouldn't change the results all that much.
In the end, would I buy one? Yeah. Maybe. Possibly. If the price comes down.
See, I'm looking at this in the opposite direction. I'm looking to get 220V run to my garage so I can charge the car faster. With the added bonus of switching to a 220V brewing system.I have to add this: I switched to electric brewing, oh, a year or two ago. I had a 60-amp main-panel breaker feed a sub panel in my garage.
While the near-term reason for doing this was to provide a 30-amp 240-v power source for electric brewing, there was a secondary reason:
Charging an electric car.
I'm nowhere near buying one, and only when it makes financial sense will I do this, but one of the hidden costs--or maybe not so hidden--of owning an electric car is providing for charging facilities.
If and when.....I have power to the garage to accommodate a charging station.