Please help. Wife made me do PowerPoint for electric brewery budget approval

[CodeSection]

@johnwpowell, nice ppt presentation! You received some very good advice ~ sink types and addons etc.

Just a couple more items to consider. I would look at your space now as you have it and imagine how it would look a few years from now. You may find the space too small. With that said, you might consider moving the right side wall slightly to the right so that it is inline with the bedroom staircase wall. That extra 18"-20" may allow options like the extra sink drain board that @mongoose33 suggested or you could put another fermenter in that space. The point is that you will have options to grow.

Forget about trying to deduct your expenses as a business expense. A sham is a sham. Talk to your tax person. Research top audit triggers. Go to irs.gov and research self-employed publications, hobby loss publications, and business and/or office in a home publications. The IRS is not stupid.

Lastly, it is very obvious you are talented and have thought through almost all the details ~ more so than most of us on this board. I am sure your wife knows your talents, your exhaustive research personality, your character, and trusts you. I believe she would accept anything that you decided what was best in the long run. So, as others pointed out, build your system and brewery to what you want and do not settle for anything less. If finances are limited, build it in steps.

 

[Franktalk]

Forget the expensive ventilation hood! For $150 you can take care of the steam without sucking all the heat out of your house. Brew hardware has the "steam slayer" and brew boss has this: https://www.brew-boss.com/Condenser-Boss-Boil-Kettle-Condenser-p/cb-bb-apmount.htm And they work beautifully!

 

[Soulshine2]

I have to give my wife credit for keeping me somewhat reigned in. There’s no way I can embezzle any more money out of the marriage and just build what I want. Got to get it approved by the “board.”

Good idea

 

[johnwpowell]

Forget the expensive ventilation hood! For $150 you can take care of the steam without sucking all the heat out of your house. Brew hardware has the "steam slayer" and brew boss has this: https://www.brew-boss.com/Condenser-Boss-Boil-Kettle-Condenser-p/cb-bb-apmount.htm And they work beautifully!

What about the smell. My wife HATES it.

 

[johnwpowell]

Way too much work. I just let my wife know that what ever I spend on this silly hobby, it is still cheaper than a girlfriend. You can most likely do that in less than three slides including the Intro and a Q&A slide.

I tried using this on my wife and she said I should start looking for a girlfriend now and the divorce is going to be way more expensive.

 

[Franktalk]

What about the smell. My wife HATES it.

I don't really get the smell thing. My condenser drains directly to the sink drain, and there's no smell.

And, honestly, dude, you're making your wife seem like a shrew. Is she really that bad?

 

[Still Brewn]

I understand the smell thing, the SWMBO is the same way. You would think after so many years she would be use to it. Even after all these years the owner of the local brew store gives her a hard time about it whenever we go in there. At least my SWMBO doesn't complain about it, she understands that she is the one that got me started brewing. When she got me the setup as a Christmas gift she was thinking that I would give it up after a brew or two, kind of like she has done with any hobbies she has ever started. I just make sure my brew days come when she is not going to be around. She also will stop by the brew shop on her way home to get me things I need or to find a random "just because" gift for me. My wife kicks a$$! I'm a lucky SOB!

 

[rneumaier]

Sure. First, no judging. Second, this is still a draft as I work up the budget.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/1ojch15ks9ib0e6/Brewery.pdf?dl=0

That's awesome. Really impressive so far.
You could also detail:
1. Single batch wort capacity preferences. (How many gallons?)
2. What you plan is for disposing of spent grains.
3. Could the brewery be leveraged for other stuff (big event dishes cleanup, etc).
4. Equipment you already have, what it costs new, and how it could be used.
5. Grain capacity for mashing purposes.
6. Time plan and commitment level for implementation.
7. Future optional adjustments.
8. Property value improvement.
9. Zombie apocalypse sustainability value.

Ultimately you want a happy home before, during, and after the final plan is executed.

 

[mongoose33]

I don't really get the smell thing. My condenser drains directly to the sink drain, and there's no smell.

And, honestly, dude, you're making your wife seem like a shrew. Is she really that bad?

We're trying to figure this one out. Mine produces a fairly grotesque smell, though this last time I eliminated the Fermcap-S and it wasn't as bad. Wondering if there's a reaction with that or other stuff with my heating element. My next step is to seal the drain line to the drain so no effluent smell can come out.

By any chance, are you using propane instead of electric?

 

[Franktalk]

We're trying to figure this one out. Mine produces a fairly grotesque smesll, though this last time I eliminated the Fermcap-S and it wasn't as bad. Wondering if there's a reaction with that or other stuff with my heating element. My next step is to seal the drain line to the drain so no effluent smell can come out.

By any chance, are you using propane instead of electric?

Yes, I've read on the condenser thread about the smell, but I don't get it. I've an electric system, and I think the key, for me at least, is that the condenser drains directly into the sink next to the kettle, literally into the drain. That and I also am only boiling off at about 5-6 percent of the volume. I'm lucky, I guess, after reading the other thread.

 

[Still Brewn]

We're trying to figure this one out. Mine produces a fairly grotesque smesll, though this last time I eliminated the Fermcap-S and it wasn't as bad. Wondering if there's a reaction with that or other stuff with my heating element. My next step is to seal the drain line to the drain so no effluent smell can come out.

By any chance, are you using propane instead of electric?

Is it the boil that is producing smell or is it the condenser?
If it is the boil are you using well water or city?
Either water source can produce an off smell but far less common with city water. But just so you know smells can come from an algae growth in the well or in the pipes. This is a fairly common occurrence with well water and once it starts there is nothing you can do but have the pipes and well flushed with bleach. Filtering works but filters have to be replaced very frequently. The smell is made worse by certain types of soaps or soap fragrances.
Most commonly in wells because the well is a sand point well and very shallow. In water pipes of city water it happens because there was a break and pipes were not flushed properly or there was a loss of pressure and contaminated water was sucked back into the closed system because someone didn't install a vaccum breaker at a cross connection point.

 

[mongoose33]

Is it the boil that is producing smell or is it the condenser?
If it is the boil are you using well water or city?
Either water source can produce an off smell but far less common with city water. But just so you know smells can come from an algae growth in the well or in the pipes. This is a fairly common occurrence with well water and once it starts there is nothing you can do but have the pipes and well flushed with bleach. Filtering works but filters have to be replaced very frequently. The smell is made worse by certain types of soaps or soap fragrances.
Most commonly in wells because the well is a sand point well and very shallow. In water pipes of city water it happens because there was a break and pipes were not flushed properly or there was a loss of pressure and contaminated water was sucked back into the closed system because someone didn't install a vaccum breaker at a cross connection point.

The problem has only emerged with using the Steam Slayer. Unclear if it's a smell that normally dissipates because the garage doors are open or I'm using an exhaust fan.

Others have noted this as well.

As far as the water....I use 1 gallon of municipal unsoftened tap water, and 7.25 gallons of RO water.

I'm trying to nail down if this is some sort of reaction with the electric element or something else going on. I eliminated the Fermcap-S, that seemed to help, and there wasn't the 24-hour residual smell I've had before.

Trying to determine if it's related to the electric element, Fermcap-S, or something else.

****

The beer is fine, though. I'm not getting any off-flavors or other issues with it, which is good. Otherwise I'd be panicking.

 

[doug293cz]

Is it the boil that is producing smell or is it the condenser?
If it is the boil are you using well water or city?
Either water source can produce an off smell but far less common with city water. But just so you know smells can come from an algae growth in the well or in the pipes. This is a fairly common occurrence with well water and once it starts there is nothing you can do but have the pipes and well flushed with bleach. Filtering works but filters have to be replaced very frequently. The smell is made worse by certain types of soaps or soap fragrances.
Most commonly in wells because the well is a sand point well and very shallow. In water pipes of city water it happens because there was a break and pipes were not flushed properly or there was a loss of pressure and contaminated water was sucked back into the closed system because someone didn't install a vaccum breaker at a cross connection point.

The smell from boiling wort is mostly DMS (creamed corn smell) that is formed from SMM in the wort at boiling temps. In a system where steam escapes to the outside air (free or forced ventilation) the DMS smell doesn't build up appreciably. With the steam condenser, the DMS is concentrated in the drain water. If the drain water is hotter than about 100 F, most of the DMS will come out of the water into the air. Yes other things in the incoming water, or added to the water/wort can contribute some smells, but DMS is primary.

Brew on

 

[Still Brewn]

And I forgot.... the smell I have witnessed first hand on both city water and well water has been a sulfurous fart like smell made worse with the clear softsoap brand hand soap.
The well water one was solved by a deeper well and flushing all the pipes with bleach, the city water one 60 miles away was solved by flushing the residence pipes with bleach and when it came back repeating and flushing the main under the street from one fire hydrant to the next from what I was told.

 

[Still Brewn]

The smell from boiling wort is mostly DMS (creamed corn smell) that is formed from SMM in the wort at boiling temps. In a system where steam escapes to the outside air (free or forced ventilation) the DMS smell doesn't build up appreciably. With the steam condenser, the DMS is concentrated in the drain water. If the drain water is hotter than about 100 F, most of the DMS will come out of the water into the air. Yes other things in the incoming water, or added to the water/wort can contribute some smells, but DMS is primary.

Brew on

Why is the drain water coming out at 100 plus degrees? I guess I'm missing the function of the condensor.... No compressor? Not enough air flow? Should be coming out at room temp, in my opinion, with no compressor or colder with one.

 

[Blazinlow86]

Does your wife show you a power point to justify what she buys- shoes, purses...etc?
I understand you want a dedicated brew room, thats great . What I dont understand is why everyone needs all the high tech stuff to make beer. controllers, circuit boards,pumps, stainless everything.
I'm frugal(ok,ok, I'm cheap)
I have a 2x4 wooden rig on caster wheels I built myself . My heat elements are from an old electric stove. I just took them out of the stove carcass and directly transferred them to the rig, its simpler than you think. I gravity feed my vessels. I still bottle by hand.
I brew some pretty decent beer. I'm not looking to enter any in competition.
My wife actually asked me if a Grainfather would be something I'd like, she has and would buy me anything I want to make beer...I said no.
I'd rather use what I have and take the money I would otherwise pay for equipment and use it to buy ingredients.
YMMV. to each his own. have fun and good luck in your decision.

Key words were decent beer and no competitions. Some homebrewers aim for a higher level. I personally am not cheap and are generally drinking 5$ tall boys if it's store bought. If my homebrew isn't as good or better I end up gifting it away as I don't drink it. Contrary to popular belief on this forum you typically won't make award winning beer with the least effort possible. And there's nothing wrong with that as long as your happy with what your making. Cheers

 

[mongoose33]

Why is the drain water coming out at 100 plus degrees? I guess I'm missing the function of the condensor.... No compressor? Not enough air flow? Should be coming out at room temp, in my opinion, with no compressor or colder with one.

The steam heats up the water. The more vigorous the boil, the hotter the condensate ends up.

 

[mongoose33]

The smell from boiling wort is mostly DMS (creamed corn smell) that is formed from SMM in the wort at boiling temps. In a system where steam escapes to the outside air (free or forced ventilation) the DMS smell doesn't build up appreciably. With the steam condenser, the DMS is concentrated in the drain water. If the drain water is hotter than about 100 F, most of the DMS will come out of the water into the air. Yes other things in the incoming water, or added to the water/wort can contribute some smells, but DMS is primary.

Brew on

It may be DMS, but it doesn't smell like creamed corn, at least to me. It's more of a bitter/acrid/burned kind of sharp smell. Before I was doing this in an enclosed garage, I rather enjoyed the odors brewing produced. Now, no.

What's different is I'm electric instead of propane, enclosed environment as opposed to open garage doors or fan in the window, using Fermcap-S to avoid boilovers, and using the Steam Slayer.

I'm willing to accept that there may just be an accumulation of odors in the enclosed space that previously didn't rise to a level of disagreeable odor.

 

[Still Brewn]

The steam heats up the water. The more vigorous the boil, the hotter the condensate ends up.

I get that part but air flow should be increased to compensate for the higher heat output. At anything over room temperature output you are not efficiently removing the moisture you are working so hard to remove.

 

[Still Brewn]

It may be DMS, but it doesn't smell like creamed corn, at least to me. It's more of a bitter/acrid/burned kind of sharp smell. Before I was doing this in an enclosed garage, I rather enjoyed the odors brewing produced. Now, no.

What's different is I'm electric instead of propane, enclosed environment as opposed to open garage doors or fan in the window, using Fermcap-S to avoid boilovers, and using the Steam Slayer.

I'm willing to accept that there may just be an accumulation of odors in the enclosed space that previously didn't rise to a level of disagreeable odor.

Try this instead.... Get yourself a fresh air heat exchanger

 

[mongoose33]

I get that part but air flow should be increased to compensate for the higher heat output. At anything over room temperature output you are not efficiently removing the moisture you are working so hard to remove.

It sure seems to work, judging by how much steam is produced when the lid is removed from the kettle (copious amounts), and how much steam is evident when the steam slayer is in operation (none).

Seems fairly efficient.

 

[mongoose33]

Try this instead.... Get yourself a fresh air heat exchanger

I actually have one in my home. Putting one in the garage would likely cost $1000 or more. The whole point of the steam slayer was to not have to exhaust air from the garage, to deal with steam or with odors.

An air-to-air heat exchange ventilator would have solved that problem originally. At a high price.

BTW, here's mine:

 

[Still Brewn]

How many times have you used your electric system? There is a normal burn-in time where any electrical heating appliance will give off odors while it burns off oils and solvent residues used in the manufacturing process. 2-4 uses. After that check to see that you aren't burning up wires/components of your system. Check to see that your wiring in the wall (from fuse box to outlet) is correct for you amperage useage check to see that your outlet/s are correct for you usage. Do you know your power useage?

15 amps 14-2 wiring 15 amp circuit breaker one 1500 watt heating element on the circuit safely
20 amp 12-2 wiring 20 amp circuit breaker one 1850 watt heating element on the circuit safely. The outlet is also different for 20 amp but not in apperance. It will say on the back of it.

Every heating appliance in your house should ALWAYS be on its own circuit with nothing else.

Take your outlet out of the wall (after you turn off the power to it) and see if it has been heated up. You will be able to see discoloration of the wire covering, copper, or outlet if it has been severely overloaded. Replace everything if it has.

 

[Still Brewn]

I actually have one in my home. Putting one in the garage would likely cost $1000 or more. The whole point of the steam slayer was to not have to exhaust air from the garage, to deal with steam or with odors.

An air-to-air heat exchange ventilator would have solved that problem originally. At a high price.

BTW, here's mine:

View attachment 616818

That's nice.... You must have a newer home or a very updated old home.

You are right about your steam mitigation system working but if the water coming out of it or air coming out of it is above room temperature it is not as efficient as it could be. I don't know the math to figure it out but if it is 100 degrees coming out the air molecules are much farther apart etc..... and can hold a lot more moisture. And thus odor molecules. This doesn't really sound like your problem though. I would inspect every wire in your system from the fuse box on.

 

[Still Brewn]

I would also consider installing a Smoke detector if you are spending time away from the room during your brew sessions.

 

[6Tap]

I can’t read 11 pages of comments.
What’s the final verdict? Loan and going BIG on the purchase or please provide the Cliffnotes! [emoji482]

 

[Still Brewn]

I took a second look at the picture of your exchanger .... it is wired improperly just so you know.
The 14-2 wiring from the household system should be clamped into the power distribution box unless the wiring is fully enclosed. The outer white cover should be in the clamp. Here are picture of the 2 most common types of clamping.

The above is a 240 volt circuit, a nut would go on the threads to hold the clamp in place to the box.

This is one with an internal clamp for use in walls.
The clamping is done for safety reasons, putting the white cover in the clamp is to keep the inner wiring covers from being damaged and shorting on the box.

 

[mongoose33]

I took a second look at the picture of your exchanger .... it is wired improperly just so you know.
The 14-2 wiring from the household system should be clamped into the power distribution box unless the wiring is fully enclosed. The outer white cover should be in the clamp. Here are picture of the 2 most common types of clamping.View attachment 616848
The above is a 240 volt circuit, a nut would go on the threads to hold the clamp in place to the box.

View attachment 616849
This is one with an internal clamp for use in walls.
The clamping is done for safety reasons, putting the white cover in the clamp is to keep the inner wiring covers from being damaged and shorting on the box.

I appreciate the concern, but it looks worse than it is.

The gray wire *is* clamped as per one would expect; it's a power cord plugged into a receptacle below the air exchanger.

The thing that's throwing you, and understandably, is it looks like the romex wire is what's wired improperly. The romex is actually the controller wire that leads to my humidistat that controls the air exchanger.

This is actually the second air exchanger I've had. The first one was installed in 1994, replaced in 2016 or 2017, can't recall for sure. Got 22+ years out of the first one, nothing to complain there.

The original one had the control (humidistat) controlling the 120v current to the exchanger; in other words, the humidistat was the "on-off" switch.

The newer one uses 24-volt to run to a controller. I really liked the way the humidistat controls indoor air quality; the new one is designed to do it by time (x percent of the time the air exchanger runs), but the humidistat just bumps on the air exchanger when humidity.

When I got it, I asked the plumber who installed it if I coudln't just run the 24-v through the humidistat using the old wiring. Certainly it was robust enough. I didn't want to run new wire if the old would do. Answer? Why not?

So what you see is romex wire for a 24-v circuit, not main power.

We built the house in 1991/92. I built it to be as close to superinsulated as possible, but the bank would not let me built a house without a furnace, and part of how you fund the extra insulation is no furnace. You don't need one in a superinsulated house.

So I only got about 2/3 of the way there. I personally insulated the house myself, at night after my day job. I sealed that house to within an inch of its life. Turns out, up to half the heat loss in a house is due to air infiltration, and sealing the house tight eliminates that.

But--you have to ventilate a house, and that's why the air exchanger (I'm sure you know this, it's for others who may not). Otherwise, indoor air pollution, way too high humidity, bad juju. However, I want to control that instead of it just happening as air infiltrates through cracks and openings and such.

And I do that by a humidistat.

FWIW: Here I am in Wisconsin. We had the polar vortex about 6 weeks ago--we were down to about -30 here at night, wind chills down to -60. I just got my utility bill for that stretch. I heat with natural gas. During the coldest stretch in decades, my monthly nat gas bill for heating? $79. That is for a house about 2500-3000 sq ft depending on how you want to count the finished basement.

Not bad. And a lot of the credit for that goes to the air exchanger.